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Headsteady #73330
02/02/08 3:07 pm
02/02/08 3:07 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 500
belgium
ludwig Offline OP
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ludwig  Offline OP
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belgium
The purpose of the headsteady is to allow the engine to move freely , but only in the vertical plane .
1. STD : probably best to surpress vibration , but the soft silentblocks are not so good in preventing lateral movement .
2. Isolastic type : effectively limits lateral movement ,but more vibration ,especially under side load .
3. Taylor type : zero lateral movement .vibration ? ...I don't know ( no experience )
STD and Taylor type do not support any engine weight ( unless assisted with a spring).
I think both 2 and 3 are overkill to solve a very simple problem .
So , I present you headsteady type 4 :
It consist mainly of just 2 pieces of metal welded together .
It has the following advantages over the other 3 :
no moving parts ,very compact and very light .
It is cheap and easy to make . Anybody with basic skill and equipment (= every britbiker) can make it in an afternoon .
It does not supress vibrations as well as the STD but equal or better than the isolastic type .
I hate long messages , so in next message I'll post some drawings and pictures .
then I'll post some construction details .

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Re: Headsteady #73331
02/02/08 3:16 pm
02/02/08 3:16 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 500
belgium
ludwig Offline OP
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ludwig  Offline OP
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Last edited by ludwig; 10/12/12 9:23 am.
Re: Headsteady #73332
02/02/08 4:41 pm
02/02/08 4:41 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 500
belgium
ludwig Offline OP
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I must admit I have no idea how big the side load can be , so I made it pretty strong : the vertical piece is 5 mm thick steel , the base plate 4 mm .SS end washers are 4 mm . the hole part is fully 3 dimensional .
I mesured the amplitude of the vibration at the head : about 2 mm , so a clearance of 3-4 mm between spacer and eye is enough .
To ensure perfect alignement , the 2 parts are tack welded in situ .
Lateral movement is controlled by the length of the spacer . I set it at 0.10 mm . I only use 2 bolts on the head . On bolt 3 is a spring preset at 20 kg to take the weight off the front iso

Re: Headsteady #73333
02/02/08 5:08 pm
02/02/08 5:08 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,751
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Online content
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GrandPaul  Online Content
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Hmmmmmmmm....

Very interesting.

Not sure if this is not essentially a rigid mount that is stressing the head?


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Headsteady #73334
02/02/08 5:52 pm
02/02/08 5:52 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 500
belgium
ludwig Offline OP
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" ...a rigid mount that is stressing the head? "( GP )
no , absolutely not ! it can move freely in the vertical plane .
I have used it for 2 seasons now and it performs exellent .

Re: Headsteady #73335
02/02/08 6:13 pm
02/02/08 6:13 pm
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 609
Mexico City, Mexico
MexicoMike Offline
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MexicoMike  Offline
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Mexico City, Mexico
So the point on the headsteady is to (ideally) allow vertical movement but not horizontal movement?

I'm trying to understand the concept...If the main iso mounts allow vertical AND, depending on the clearance setting, some horizontal movement, wouldn't the lack of horizontal movement on the head steady cause added stress since the lower part of the engine is moving sideways a bit but the upper part can't?

Again, I'm not trying to argue, just to understand.

Re: Headsteady #73336
02/02/08 6:25 pm
02/02/08 6:25 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 500
belgium
ludwig Offline OP
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MM , The horizontal ( axial) movement of the of the isos should be the absolute minimum , just enough to prevent vibrations from being transmitted to the frame . The engine+gearbox+swingarm+rearwheel are connected to the frame in just these 3 points . The more lateral movement in the isos , the more lateral movement (x3 )in the rear wheel and we don't want that , do we ?

Re: Headsteady #73337
02/02/08 6:26 pm
02/02/08 6:26 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,063
Scotland
kommando Online content
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Vertical movement is front to back and up and down, horizontal is side to side.

Re: Headsteady #73338
02/02/08 7:10 pm
02/02/08 7:10 pm
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 164
Juneau, AK
7
78AMIgrad Offline
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Juneau, AK
Quote:
Originally posted by MexicoMike:
So the point on the headsteady is to (ideally) allow vertical movement but not horizontal movement?

I'm trying to understand the concept...If the main iso mounts allow vertical AND, depending on the clearance setting, some horizontal movement, wouldn't the lack of horizontal movement on the head steady cause added stress since the lower part of the engine is moving sideways a bit but the upper part can't?

Again, I'm not trying to argue, just to understand.
The problem with the upper headsteady is that it allows too much horizontal movement and vertical movement for that matter, which it has no real means by its poor design of controlling. It relies on the resistance to shear of the rubber mounts to control vertical movement and rubber compression resistance for horizontal.

Re: Headsteady #73339
02/02/08 9:00 pm
02/02/08 9:00 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 107
San Francisco/East Bay Califor...
aceaceca Offline
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You are designing out the essence of a Commando and over stressing the cylinder head.

Re: Headsteady #73340
02/02/08 10:24 pm
02/02/08 10:24 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 500
belgium
ludwig Offline OP
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ludwig  Offline OP
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aceaceca :
"You are designing out the essence of a Commando and over stressing the cylinder head." (quote )
Aceaceca , can you explain why you think that , please ?
Why would it put more strain on the head than an isolastic type headsteady ?
In fact , I am shure it puts far LESS strain on the head .
Btw ,I think the engine is far more rigid than the frame . If anything gets overstressed , it would be the frame , not the head .

Re: Headsteady #73341
02/03/08 1:34 am
02/03/08 1:34 am
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 168
Tucson, AZ
darbone85737 Offline
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Tucson, AZ
I've enjoyed reading this thread as my recently finished Commando has a custom headsteady. Here's a picture [img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/darbone85737/2223516243/sizes/m/[/img]


Tucson, AZ
1955 BSA Gold Star clubman
1958 BSA A10 Super Rocket
Re: Headsteady #73342
02/03/08 1:40 am
02/03/08 1:40 am
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 168
Tucson, AZ
darbone85737 Offline
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Tucson, AZ
1955 BSA Gold Star clubman
1958 BSA A10 Super Rocket
Re: Headsteady #73343
02/03/08 1:55 am
02/03/08 1:55 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,509
Springfield Nebraska
Richrd Online content
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Springfield Nebraska
I have tried rod end steadies on my two bikes and noticed no difference under 99% of riding. Putting collars on the swingarm on the '72 did much more good.

The MkIII already has a tighter swingarm so I saw no diff in handling.

I also saw no difference in vibes, the '72 is still very smooth and the mk3 still vibrates.


Rich (member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
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Re: Headsteady #73344
02/03/08 1:08 pm
02/03/08 1:08 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 500
belgium
ludwig Offline OP
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darbone85737
Nice work !
I too began making a tayor type headsteady .
But playing with the diff. parts got me thinking : I could accieve the same goal in a much simpler and easier way . Thas why I made this headsteady .

Re: Headsteady #73345
02/03/08 4:39 pm
02/03/08 4:39 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 107
San Francisco/East Bay Califor...
aceaceca Offline
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San Francisco/East Bay Califor...
The response from 78AMIgrad correctly describes how the original head steady operates. The pucks are under both shear and compression loads. However, the use of the term contol is not correct. The head steady's job is as it is named (steady) not control. The pucks were not put on there originally to control the movement of the top of the cylinder but to steady the movement and reduce/stop the transmission of those vibes to the frame. I may be splitting hairs here with terminology, but the whole idea that was used is isolastic ie, isolate the cradle and dampen its movement with rubber mounts.The movement of the cradle is controlled/limited when the rubber mounts deform enough to go metal on metal with the shims or the compression loads on the rubber are equalized. If one does not want that to happen; solid mount the sucker.

Re: Headsteady #73346
02/03/08 5:04 pm
02/03/08 5:04 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 500
belgium
ludwig Offline OP
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belgium
aceaceca , the STD headsteady is NOT the product of superior engineering , but from pennysaving accountants . Originaly ,Bauer wanted a real isolastic headsteady at the top . The fact that they had to change their el cheapo solution after a year or so prooves that not much preproduction testing was done .They preferred to leave this to their customers .
If you bolt the engine solid in a Commando frame , the frame wil break .
Supressing vibration is nice .
NOT slamming into a lamppost because your bike gets out of control is better .

Re: Headsteady #73347
02/03/08 5:11 pm
02/03/08 5:11 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 500
belgium
ludwig Offline OP
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belgium
aceaceca: "when the rubber mounts deform enough to go metal on metal with the shims or the compression loads on the rubber are equalized."( quote)
I do not fully understand this .
Will you please explain ?

Re: Headsteady #73348
02/03/08 7:59 pm
02/03/08 7:59 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 107
San Francisco/East Bay Califor...
aceaceca Offline
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San Francisco/East Bay Califor...
I only mean there is at some point a limit to how far the cradle moves. The head steady does not seem to have this limit desgned in. When you look at old head steady pucks they are usually sheared up due to main iso settling and often torn due to streching. I'm sure your set up works well. It looks like it has a tighter controlling point built in and less damping than stock. Hey, I am no expert on this, just my observations and thoughts as to what is happening. When more control is desired one decreases the damping.

Re: Headsteady #73349
02/03/08 9:09 pm
02/03/08 9:09 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 500
belgium
ludwig Offline OP
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belgium
As I said , I mesured the total movement of the head when running . It does not move all that much . My setup has no damping ( but neither has a tayor head steady ) The rubber ring in the eye is to small to have any damping effect . It is there to see how it wears out . Look at the last picture : it was taken after a 4000 km trip . You can see how much , and in wich direction the engine movement wore it out .

Re: Headsteady #73350
02/03/08 9:14 pm
02/03/08 9:14 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 107
San Francisco/East Bay Califor...
aceaceca Offline
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San Francisco/East Bay Califor...
If you take all the wobble capability out of the head steady you are loading the head big time and not allowing the big fore and aft rubber mounts to do their job as well. You are fixing the weakest link in the chain and I do not think this is wise. Each to his own.

Re: Headsteady #73351
02/03/08 9:18 pm
02/03/08 9:18 pm
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 307
Boulder, CO
debby Offline
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Boulder, CO
ludwig,

Very interesting work. There are a couple of details I'm not quite clear on, perhaps you could explain:

It looks like your ground wires are bolted to the stock mounting point and you drilled a hole in the frame tube to accept your mounting bolt. Did you weld in a piece of tubing as reinforcement or just drill a hole and insert the bolt?

Also looks like you pressed a rubber or plastic washer into the large hole, presumably to prevent metal to metal contact? Was wondering what material you used for that?

Also, could you post a photo of the other side, where the spring mounts?

It's very innovative, as are many details you've shown us on that bike.

thanks,
Debby

Re: Headsteady #73352
02/03/08 9:36 pm
02/03/08 9:36 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 500
belgium
ludwig Offline OP
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belgium
Debby , I explained the rubber ring, actually polyurethane , 2 posts up ( you just missed it) . Yes , there is a 2nd welded in cross tube . I did that to hold my previous isolastic type headsteady . I preferred that over a clamp . That's also why the original threaded cross tube is drilled trough .
The headsteady is on the original mounting point .


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