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MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72951
01/15/08 3:32 pm
01/15/08 3:32 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Coco Offline OP
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Coco  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
How my thread got closed is beyond me. All I asked for was info on belt drive conversions and everything went south about half way through.

I have no cutch problems, no gunk on the plates and no increase in power via engine mods, just a zippier cam.

I am interested in the easy pull clutch due to carpal tunnel in both wrists. Easy pull = less pain in wrist.

I'm looking for comments on the belt conversion, specifically the RGM unit so any talk about clutches or clutch slippng can be designated to another thread.

All I'm asking for is info on belt drive conversions and wheter it it is worth the effort to do such a conversion.

Let's try to keep this thread on track please.

Thanks to any who respond.


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
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Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72952
01/15/08 3:38 pm
01/15/08 3:38 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 730
Dordogne, SW France
johnnyrvf Offline
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johnnyrvf  Offline
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Posts: 730
Dordogne, SW France
Hi Coco , I recommend you look on this site www.stevemaney.com, I'm not devalueing any other persons products but Steve has been around Commando's a long time and his stuff is proven HTH Johnny


What d'ya mean it won't rev to 10?
1965 BSA A65D Lightning Rocket
1976 K*w*s*ki Z900.
1978 Triumph Bonn3ville (930 T160 Powered T140)
1988 H*nd* RC30
1990 Moto Guzzi California 3
1993 Y*m*h* TDM 850
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72953
01/15/08 3:39 pm
01/15/08 3:39 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 730
Dordogne, SW France
johnnyrvf Offline
BritBike Forum member
johnnyrvf  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 730
Dordogne, SW France


What d'ya mean it won't rev to 10?
1965 BSA A65D Lightning Rocket
1976 K*w*s*ki Z900.
1978 Triumph Bonn3ville (930 T160 Powered T140)
1988 H*nd* RC30
1990 Moto Guzzi California 3
1993 Y*m*h* TDM 850
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72954
01/15/08 4:46 pm
01/15/08 4:46 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Coco Offline OP
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Coco  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by johnnyrvf:
Sorry www.stevemaney.com
Thanks for the link, but the belt drive Maney offers is not for a mkIII as I want to retain the electric start. I am going to get one of his cush drives for a hardtail Triumph I'm building.

I also lust after his alloy barrels and his crank shafts. I need to rob a bank.


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72956
01/15/08 5:16 pm
01/15/08 5:16 pm
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 105
Hampshire, UK
keith1069 Offline
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keith1069  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 105
Hampshire, UK
Coco
If it's the lightest clutch you want go with the usual recommendations of 5 steel, 4 Surflex fibre and normal steel pressure plate with Venhill nylocable. That gives you 2-3 finger operation but if you want the ultimate use a Dominator operating arm for 1-2 fingers only. Downside is less travel on pushrod (more leverage) and you need a perfect diaphragm (no uneven fingers)for neutral finding.
Belt drive does not on its own does nothing for weight of clutch operation....it just cleans things up down there IMHO.

Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72957
01/15/08 5:21 pm
01/15/08 5:21 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
B
beltdriveman Offline
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B
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
The RGM unit employs a designed to be RUN DRY Synchroflex AT10 belt. This belt has very olde technology trapizoidal toothformed teeth and whilst it will work it is NOT a belt I would employ on ANY belt drive system I can sometimes be beaten into makeing...but ONLY for friends.
The AT10 belt is light years behind those of other manufacturers such as Gates, Megadyne, Continental etc. The ONLY good thing about it is that it is oil proof and as SOME system makers and dealers flogging AT10 belt systems tell owners in an effort to win sales they were designed to be run with oil(A LIE) or that they can be run with oil(True) However the oil resistance of the AT10 belt is only so it can be employed in situations where oil cannopt beavoided and the last place you need oil is with a designed to be run dry clutch plus, a letter to me a few years ago from the Synchoflex belts UK agents stated that NO testing had been carried out to determine the power losses that would occur in employing the belt with oil....and why should they of done such testing when the belt was designed to be run dry.....
PERSONALLY if I wanted a systewm for a MK3 there is only one system maker I would use...QPD in the USA. I think he is the only one who makes diaphragm spring clutch systems who actually knows how diaphragm springs should be correctly set up and how clutches are suppossed to work.
It was for the very same reason as yours that I cobbled together a 3 friction plate easy two finger operated diaphragm spring clutch for a friends race winning G50 relacing the very nice but heavy to operate coil spring clutch.
If I can find it I will post a site to look at regarding Mr Oswald.

Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72958
01/15/08 10:11 pm
01/15/08 10:11 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Coco Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Coco  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by keith1069:
Coco
If it's the lightest clutch you want go with the usual recommendations of 5 steel, 4 Surflex fibre and normal steel pressure plate with Venhill nylocable. That gives you 2-3 finger operation but if you want the ultimate use a Dominator operating arm for 1-2 fingers only. Downside is less travel on pushrod (more leverage) and you need a perfect diaphragm (no uneven fingers)for neutral finding.
Belt drive does not on its own does nothing for weight of clutch operation....it just cleans things up down there IMHO.
The refernce to the clutch was from my first thread about this subject before it was shut down.

****I do not need any info regarding the clutch as that has been sorted. Stock clutch was ok but I figured a bit more ease on my wrist would be welcomed. I have a teflon or nylon lined Norman Hyde clutch cable to replace the old.*****

I have simply heard belt drives are easier on the motor adding some cushioning and no fluid to deal with.


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72959
01/15/08 10:16 pm
01/15/08 10:16 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Coco Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Coco  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by beltdriveman:
The RGM unit employs a designed to be RUN DRY Synchroflex AT10 belt. This belt has very olde technology trapizoidal toothformed teeth and whilst it will work it is NOT a belt I would employ on ANY belt drive system I can sometimes be beaten into makeing...but ONLY for friends.
The AT10 belt is light years behind those of other manufacturers such as Gates, Megadyne, Continental etc. The ONLY good thing about it is that it is oil proof and as SOME system makers and dealers flogging AT10 belt systems tell owners in an effort to win sales they were designed to be run with oil(A LIE) or that they can be run with oil(True) However the oil resistance of the AT10 belt is only so it can be employed in situations where oil cannopt beavoided and the last place you need oil is with a designed to be run dry clutch plus, a letter to me a few years ago from the Synchoflex belts UK agents stated that NO testing had been carried out to determine the power losses that would occur in employing the belt with oil....and why should they of done such testing when the belt was designed to be run dry.....
PERSONALLY if I wanted a systewm for a MK3 there is only one system maker I would use...QPD in the USA. I think he is the only one who makes diaphragm spring clutch systems who actually knows how diaphragm springs should be correctly set up and how clutches are suppossed to work.
It was for the very same reason as yours that I cobbled together a 3 friction plate easy two finger operated diaphragm spring clutch for a friends race winning G50 relacing the very nice but heavy to operate coil spring clutch.
If I can find it I will post a site to look at regarding Mr Oswald.
Thanks BDM. I have heard QPD are good systems but I have no idea where to source one from and if they have a provision to keep the e-start.

I have not looked into Norvil and I think MAP Cycles in the USA also makes a belt system. British Cycle Supply is a dealer but hasn't had any QPD products available for some time now.


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72960
01/15/08 10:21 pm
01/15/08 10:21 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Coco Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Coco  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Coco:
Quote:
Originally posted by keith1069:
Coco
If it's the lightest clutch you want go with the usual recommendations of 5 steel, 4 Surflex fibre and normal steel pressure plate with Venhill nylocable. That gives you 2-3 finger operation but if you want the ultimate use a Dominator operating arm for 1-2 fingers only. Downside is less travel on pushrod (more leverage) and you need a perfect diaphragm (no uneven fingers)for neutral finding.
Belt drive does not on its own does nothing for weight of clutch operation....it just cleans things up down there IMHO.
The refernce to the clutch was from my first thread about this subject before it was shut down.

****I do not need any info regarding the clutch as that has been sorted. Stock clutch was ok but I figured a bit more ease on my wrist would be welcomed. I have a teflon or nylon lined Norman Hyde clutch cable to replace the old.*****

I have simply heard belt drives are easier on the motor adding some cushioning and there is obviously no fluid to deal with.


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72961
01/16/08 1:22 am
01/16/08 1:22 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 221
Port St. John, FL USA
J
Jim Clausen Offline
BritBike Forum member
Jim Clausen  Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 221
Port St. John, FL USA
Probably one of the cheapest and most effective mods to my Combat was when I replaced the stock broken clutch cable with a Venhill nylon lined from Clubman Racing. Cheaper than a stock cable and with no other clutch mods it is now an easy two finger pull.

Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72962
01/16/08 2:34 am
01/16/08 2:34 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,721
ca, us
D
DMadigan Online content
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
D
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,721
ca, us
Coco, in regards to easier pull, either the friction in the system needs to be reduced (lined cable, pivot friction, et cetera) or you need to change the ratio of the lifter (assuming you want the same lift. I am not including any assisted methods (vacuum or oil pressure). To get the same clutch action the pressure plate has to move the same distance. Given that, with a higher ratio means a longer lever travel. Several ways to do that.

Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72963
01/16/08 3:50 am
01/16/08 3:50 am
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 307
Boulder, CO
debby Offline
BritBike Forum member
debby  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 307
Boulder, CO
Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Clausen:
Probably one of the cheapest and most effective mods to my Combat was when I replaced the stock broken clutch cable with a Venhill nylon lined from Clubman Racing. Cheaper than a stock cable and with no other clutch mods it is now an easy two finger pull.
Yep, those nylon lined cables are nice. I found that cable routing can make a huge difference as well.

Easy pull, no slip for me bigt

Debby

Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72964
01/16/08 4:04 am
01/16/08 4:04 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,106
McKellar,Ontario
Kommandokenny Offline
BritBike Forum member
Kommandokenny  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,106
McKellar,Ontario
Keith, which pressure plate [750/850] are ya using with that arrangements of plates?? I don't think everything is gonna fit in the basket?
confused
He wants a belt for his E start 75.

Email KIWI he just did it on his 75 kk


If Norton made an airplane,would you fly in it?
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72965
01/16/08 9:36 am
01/16/08 9:36 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
B
beltdriveman Offline
BritBike Forum
beltdriveman  Offline
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B
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
Mr Boyd. Stop talking b******s giving out misinformation that others may be silly enough to believe as fact and go learn about the chordial rise and fall of chain as it engages with a sprocket and the vibes in causes.

Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72966
01/16/08 9:39 am
01/16/08 9:39 am
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 105
Hampshire, UK
keith1069 Offline
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keith1069  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 105
Hampshire, UK
Slap on the wrist for me then!! just trying to help.....oh well.
KK. I have the stock steel pressure plate (don't know the thickness) but it was looked at many yrs ago by Les Emery and pronounced std. He advised the steel/Surflex combo and it fitted perfectly, originally in the steel chain basket and now in my Norvil belt drive basket. Loosely speaking, the extra steel makes up for the thinner Surflex which from memory are about 0.025 less than original Norton spec plates. It puts clutch release closer to point of engagement (BDM maths will explain that)and a belt with dry clutch makes slip less likely.
Expert opinion is that belts don't cushion the drivetrain even if Norvil continue to claim they do. Only thing I don't like is the belt slap from the necessary excessive cold play. Any less than 30mm total = bowstring tight and awful clutch release issues when stinking hot.
The main issue with Mk4 is the fixed shaft centres. Norvil do a chart of pulleys and belts which I sent Coco last year but the centres have to be measured quite accurately it appears.

Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72967
01/16/08 3:00 pm
01/16/08 3:00 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
SBoyd Offline
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SBoyd  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
BDM ....Thank you for the personal insult.
I stand by my statement as to no cushion is provided by a belt.


Stop the insanity.
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72968
01/16/08 3:22 pm
01/16/08 3:22 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Coco Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Coco  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by SBoyd:

2. Keith (above) is, of course, right. There is no direct relationship between clutch lever pull and belt drive. (unless your belt-drive "kit" comes with a new clutch spring/pressure plate setup)
It's just that a dry clutch theoretically enables you to fit a lighter clutch spring.
I would follow Keith's advice first.
I am unsure why I keep getting clutch info when I asked for none. This thread is straying off topic like the first one.

Can we please keep this related to belt drives??


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72969
01/16/08 3:25 pm
01/16/08 3:25 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Coco Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Coco  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by keith1069:
Slap on the wrist for me then!! just trying to help.....oh well.
KK. I have the stock steel pressure plate (don't know the thickness) but it was looked at many yrs ago by Les Emery and pronounced std. He advised the steel/Surflex combo and it fitted perfectly, originally in the steel chain basket and now in my Norvil belt drive basket. Loosely speaking, the extra steel makes up for the thinner Surflex which from memory are about 0.025 less than original Norton spec plates. It puts clutch release closer to point of engagement (BDM maths will explain that)and a belt with dry clutch makes slip less likely.
Expert opinion is that belts don't cushion the drivetrain even if Norvil continue to claim they do. Only thing I don't like is the belt slap from the necessary excessive cold play. Any less than 30mm total = bowstring tight and awful clutch release issues when stinking hot.
The main issue with Mk4 is the fixed shaft centres. Norvil do a chart of pulleys and belts which I sent Coco last year but the centres have to be measured quite accurately it appears.
You have a good memory sir. I recall getting Norvil belt info but forgot from whom. Thanks again although I think I lost the info. :rolleyes:

Norvil seems to require precise measurement but other belt kits, like the RGM just have one available.


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72970
01/16/08 3:27 pm
01/16/08 3:27 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Coco Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Coco  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Kommandokenny:
Right back to clutches,,, I'm telling you,,,, confused
Keith, which pressure plate [750/850] are ya using with that arrangements of plates?? I don't think everything is gonna fit in the basket?
confused
He wants a belt for his E start 75.

Email KIWI he just did it on his 75 kk
I'll give Kiwi a pm. Thanks KK!!


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72971
01/17/08 12:04 am
01/17/08 12:04 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,106
McKellar,Ontario
Kommandokenny Offline
BritBike Forum member
Kommandokenny  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,106
McKellar,Ontario
Quote:
Originally posted by Coco:
How my thread got closed is beyond me. All I asked for was info on belt drive conversions and everything went south about half way through.

I have no cutch problems, no gunk on the plates and no increase in power via engine mods, just a zippier cam.

I am interested in the easy pull clutch due to carpal tunnel in both wrists. Easy pull = less pain in wrist .

I'm looking for comments on the belt conversion, specifically the RGM unit so any talk about clutches or clutch slippng can be designated to another thread.

All I'm asking for is info on belt drive conversions and wheter it it is worth the effort to do such a conversion.

Let's try to keep this thread on track please.

Thanks to any who respond.
My appologies to Keith, and everyone else addressing the clutch issue on this thread shocked
I did not read this part only skimmed over it,to the belt conversion part . shocked KK


If Norton made an airplane,would you fly in it?
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72972
01/17/08 2:51 pm
01/17/08 2:51 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Coco Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Coco  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Ludwig made a pretty good post about his belt drive in the clutch thread. got me thinking that a belt is the way to go. I'll save that for next winter as my Commando will be finished soon. At least it will give something to fiddle with next winter. wink

I just need to decide what manufacturer to go with as it seems RGM uses an apparently "inferior" belt (AT10 style). Norvil perhaps?


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72973
01/17/08 3:03 pm
01/17/08 3:03 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,106
McKellar,Ontario
Kommandokenny Offline
BritBike Forum member
Kommandokenny  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,106
McKellar,Ontario
Ok, so I'm ebaying your chain laughing


If Norton made an airplane,would you fly in it?
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72974
01/17/08 10:41 pm
01/17/08 10:41 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Coco Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Coco  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Yeah. :rolleyes:

I'm still on the fence. I checked out my chains and they look new still.


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72975
01/17/08 10:49 pm
01/17/08 10:49 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,106
McKellar,Ontario
Kommandokenny Offline
BritBike Forum member
Kommandokenny  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,106
McKellar,Ontario
They are very durable, mine had a couple chipped rollers after 30 years.32,000 miles kk


If Norton made an airplane,would you fly in it?
Re: MKIII Belt Drive. Lets try again shall we. #72976
01/18/08 10:50 am
01/18/08 10:50 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
B
beltdriveman Offline
BritBike Forum
beltdriveman  Offline
BritBike Forum
B
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
If you want to see how to do belt and rear electric start systems correctly.......

http://www.paladinmedialegal.com/QPDhtm/AboutQPD.htm#

Some guys were doing it while most other so called system makers didnt know what a toothed belt was. Jack Wilson of BIG D (Dallas)Triumph fame once told me his Triumphs were using QPD systems to win Narional and Open chanpoinships as far back as 78.
AND please dont forget what was used on the TT winning Rotary for primary drive AND NO IT WASNT AN AT10 belt! I heard it was a 25mm wide 8mm pitch off the shelf Gates Polychain belt but on the bike in the Museum it was a 30mm. And that polychain belt hada much lower torque rating than the later version and the latest one now available for the last couple of years..

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