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valve guide replacement #72549
12/14/07 8:48 pm
12/14/07 8:48 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
sugarloaf ny
injunmort Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
injunmort  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
sugarloaf ny
greetings, i was hoping to get some feedback on the proccess of removing and replacing valve guides in a norton es 2 cylinder head. i have seen a drift advertised for this procedure and was hoping to get some insight into the job and any pitfalls to be on the lookout for. thank you.


1948 indian chief
1937, 1939, 1962 norton es2
1950 triumph trw
1970 triumph bonneville
1975 norton commando
1972 bmw r75/5
various projects
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Re: valve guide replacement #72550
12/14/07 9:47 pm
12/14/07 9:47 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
Mort -
Interesting name. "Mort" as in "morte", the Romance language root of the word which means 'dead'. I say this because that's exactly what your cyl head will be if you use this tool as a "drift".

Pound for pound, the cyl head is THE most technical part on the whole motorcycle, and as such uses more special tools and knowledge than any other part. Once a head is 'buggered' it usually can't be brought back to life. The shame of it is, in most cases the "savings" the owner-mechanic stands to reap is under $100, while the cost of a replacement if it's 'buggered' is... as the ad says... priceless.

So let me encourage you to 1) make double-darn sure the head needs new guides to begin with, and 2) send it to a local Brit bike expert if it really does.

Others here can recommend qualified people in your area, but this is one job you do not want to do yourself.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: valve guide replacement #72551
12/14/07 9:52 pm
12/14/07 9:52 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10
B
bradman Offline
BritBike Forum
bradman  Offline
BritBike Forum
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10
I tried one of those drifts. Apparently they are more for the inserting of new guides rather than the removal of the old ones. Anyway, long story short, I ended up taking my head and new guides to a good machine shop and had them take out the old and put in the new. Saved much aggravation and potential damage to the head, let me tell you! I also had them do the valve job and put in the new valves and springs (making sure they knew about all the pieces and where they go (e.g., seals on the intake valve stems, insulators ubder the lower valve spring seats, etc.). So, there's my advice...

Re: valve guide replacement #72552
12/15/07 12:34 am
12/15/07 12:34 am
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,499
melbourne florida
B
bodine031 Offline
BritBike Forum member
bodine031  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,499
melbourne florida
dont do it your self way more too it than knocking in some guides!! get rf's address at the shop and have the brown truck bring it to him

Re: valve guide replacement #72553
12/17/07 3:01 pm
12/17/07 3:01 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
sugarloaf ny
injunmort Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
injunmort  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
sugarloaf ny
thank you everyone for the input, i have an oven to heat the head and a type of puller for removal of the guides. my desire to do this is not motivated by finance but rather to gain experience in another facet of restoration work on british machines. what am i missing that i should not attempt this. thank you all again.


1948 indian chief
1937, 1939, 1962 norton es2
1950 triumph trw
1970 triumph bonneville
1975 norton commando
1972 bmw r75/5
various projects
Re: valve guide replacement #72554
12/17/07 4:18 pm
12/17/07 4:18 pm
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,694
georgia
T
trumpetloon Offline
BritBike Forum member
trumpetloon  Offline
BritBike Forum member
T

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,694
georgia
Mort... if the guides are installed with centerlines askew from seat centers the head will effectively become good only as a crab trap anchor. "Eyeballed" centered is not good enough here. If the concentricity is off it will be impossible to do a correct valve job. There is only one chance to do this correctly as the bore will change orientation if you get it wrong.


1974 TR5T
Re: valve guide replacement #72555
12/28/07 1:05 pm
12/28/07 1:05 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
B
beltdriveman Offline
BritBike Forum
beltdriveman  Offline
BritBike Forum
B

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
So how does one sort the exspurts of which there are a great many in the Brit Bike business from the real experts of which there are very few who would do the job CORRECTLY? That in my opinion is the hardest job of all!!
Of course if the real expert quoted you a price of lets say $100 plus the new guides which he would make himself to ensure the centre is true with the outer etc ,unklike so many made these days(I hear} and the exspurt is going to charge $90 including the new guides probably made incorrectly somewhere in India then guess which one the average Brit Bike owner will choose to use to do the job..............
Olde Ted Bloomfield of Motor Cycle Shop in London used to say that you could always tell a Norton owner because they had purses(along with olde worn out corker helmets and even older despatch riders coats).....funnily enough they were always the ones moaning about costs whilst few BSA and Triumph owners did. But that was many decades ago.

Re: valve guide replacement #72556
12/28/07 5:05 pm
12/28/07 5:05 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 211
California U.S.
Hortons Norton Offline
BritBike Forum member
Hortons Norton  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 211
California U.S.
O.K. BDM, My old lady carries the purse and also controls the strings, Or so she thinks, But no need to bash the Norton guys here. What I am thinking is that it must have been a bit different across the pond in those days, As few I have meet with Nortons are as such here. But as far as the valve guides go I would leave this up to someone that knows how and buy parts from the best supplier, And ask about to find these things out. Hey when are you going to send me some more photos? The others were great and so were the bits printed in the magazines too. Great story about the Combat, I learned a lot and will build with more insight. Take care sir, Chuck.

Re: valve guide replacement #72557
12/28/07 7:43 pm
12/28/07 7:43 pm
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 555
RED BANK NJ
Kenacu Offline
BritBike Forum member
Kenacu  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 555
RED BANK NJ
Mort, Dont know where in New York you are but I just had excellent top end done by Manx Cycle on rte 46 in Dover NJ. 973 366 2498. They bored the jugs insatlled new guides, svalves and springs for me , but I'm sure they would just do the guides if thats all you want. Fast and reasonable.Ken 1965 A65 LR


1965 A65LR
2005 SPORTSTER CUSTOM 1200
Re: valve guide replacement #72558
12/28/07 8:28 pm
12/28/07 8:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,499
melbourne florida
B
bodine031 Offline
BritBike Forum member
bodine031  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,499
melbourne florida
Mort: RF Whatley's shop or JOB cycle in conn.are very capable of correctly doing your cyl/head.rowe and kibblewhite have quality valve quides in stock for brit bikes

Re: valve guide replacement #72559
12/29/07 11:36 am
12/29/07 11:36 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 221
Port St. John, FL USA
J
Jim Clausen Offline
BritBike Forum member
Jim Clausen  Offline
BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 221
Port St. John, FL USA
Bodine,

Can you recommend anyone in the Melbourne, FL area for head work? I can tell you of a couple of local shops to definitely stay away from.

Re: valve guide replacement #72560
12/29/07 11:43 am
12/29/07 11:43 am
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,499
melbourne florida
B
bodine031 Offline
BritBike Forum member
bodine031  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,499
melbourne florida
not any i would trust with brit stuff!!southern v-twin for harleys. brit wes scott fort laud,benos ga.rask pa. job conn.

Re: valve guide replacement #72561
01/11/08 3:58 pm
01/11/08 3:58 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
sugarloaf ny
injunmort Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
injunmort  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
sugarloaf ny
well, contrary to very good advice, i did change the the valve guides in the es2 head. aside from not taking the advice of not attempting this, the message i got was to be very careful, which i was. it was pretty straitforward, the exhaust guide had come loose in its previous life. the po's solution was to peen the boss. the guide had to be changed. i bought +.010 guides, put the head in my welding oven for 3 hrs at 400. took the head out and drifted the guides out. both came out without much rancor. i let everything cool and then measured the guides od. i took the head to a machine shop and had them true exhaust side boss and measure. the exhuast boss was about +.005 and the intake about +.002. i took each guide and turned them down to proper od (about +.001) to the boss's. put the head back in the oven, when hot i put guides in fridge, i used a guide tool that draws the guide in from the seat with an arbour. i did use a little locktite(green) to prevent previous condition. let it cool. then cut the seats using old fasioned seat cutter by hand. did not take much. lapped the valves. checked with blueing and had nice seats in each. i appreciate everyones input on this and this in not a track bike just poser cafe es2 for sunday mornings. i also am gratified from the experience in having done it myself.


1948 indian chief
1937, 1939, 1962 norton es2
1950 triumph trw
1970 triumph bonneville
1975 norton commando
1972 bmw r75/5
various projects
Re: valve guide replacement #72563
01/13/08 4:10 pm
01/13/08 4:10 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 64
Boston
B
BrianK Offline
BritBike Forum member
BrianK  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 64
Boston
I'm certainly nothing loath to try most jobs myself, but agree that headwork is beyond me.

Can anyone recommend someone in the Boston area that does this work?

Thanks, BrianK

Re: valve guide replacement #72564
01/14/08 6:35 pm
01/14/08 6:35 pm
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 609
Mexico City, Mexico
MexicoMike Offline
BritBike Forum member
MexicoMike  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 609
Mexico City, Mexico
Mort, Re drifting out the guides - did you consider the tool sold by Old Britts (and possibly others) for this purpose or have you found it not to perform as advertised?

Old Britts listing:

19-063964 NORTON, Valve Guide Extractor & Inserter 63.97

Re: valve guide replacement #72565
01/14/08 8:37 pm
01/14/08 8:37 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,027
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline
BritBike Forum member
HawaiianTiger  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,027
Maui Hawaii
After spending 600$ for my Triumph head and then 1000$ for my Norton head work I'm definitely interested in purchasing the equipment to do it myself regardless of how "complicated or technical" it is. I will learn, just as you have. Admittedly, in the past I used the ususal power equipment to do head work and quite sucessfully but now that I am a hobbyist again the hand tools that you used will enable me to do valve jobs in one Saturday afternoon and ride on Sunday. Hats off to you, sir.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: valve guide replacement #72566
01/14/08 8:46 pm
01/14/08 8:46 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
sugarloaf ny
injunmort Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
injunmort  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
sugarloaf ny
i went looking for a tool to extract the guides and could not find one. i would have purchased it had i known. i am going to purchase it now because there is plenty more to do. after confering with 2 local britbike shops, (one who has done countless heads on my tri, and norton twins over the years.) the procedure i described is how they do them. heat the head real hot and carefully drift the guide out. i would have prefered to avoid doing it this way but could not find a suitable guide extraction tool.


1948 indian chief
1937, 1939, 1962 norton es2
1950 triumph trw
1970 triumph bonneville
1975 norton commando
1972 bmw r75/5
various projects
Re: valve guide replacement #72567
01/15/08 12:38 am
01/15/08 12:38 am
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,406
New Zealand
J
johnm Offline
BritBike Forum member
johnm  Offline
BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,406
New Zealand
The guy that does all the work on heads around here mills the top of the valve guide down to the head before drifting it out from the valve spring side into the combustion chamber. (after heating the head) This avoids any damage to the head by carbon around the valve guide.

I wouldn't do guides without access to a proper machine shop.

Re: valve guide replacement #72568
01/15/08 1:31 pm
01/15/08 1:31 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
sugarloaf ny
injunmort Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
injunmort  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
sugarloaf ny
the valve guides on the es2 are shouldered, i would be afraid of milling guide on spring side for fear damaging the boss. the idea of oversizing the guide and then machining to the interference fit will alleviate any loss of material in the proccess of removing the guide and hence some of the head.


1948 indian chief
1937, 1939, 1962 norton es2
1950 triumph trw
1970 triumph bonneville
1975 norton commando
1972 bmw r75/5
various projects
Re: valve guide replacement #72569
01/15/08 8:05 pm
01/15/08 8:05 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,406
New Zealand
J
johnm Offline
BritBike Forum member
johnm  Offline
BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,406
New Zealand
Yes - the shoulder is the reason he machines down to the head.

If you are careful it works.

He has 30 years experience as an engineer and has done maybe 20 or 30 Norton heads - but has now semi retired and hides away so very few can find him.


Moderated by  Dave Comeau 


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