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Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #712572
10/24/17 8:51 pm
10/24/17 8:51 pm
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 135
UK
F
flowboy Offline
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flowboy  Offline
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F

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 135
UK
All I can say is; Very Many Thanks Magnetoman. Your attention to detail appears second to none & having access to the equipment & the know-how to use it has done us all a huge favour, without even thinking about the amount to time it must all have taken!.

I gave up using 6 spring clutches due to all the aforementioned problems with them: wear, lack of correct & sufficiently detailed info, mixed & matched & unknown parts quality-wise. I had no idea the bearing cages were "handed", or rather now, many years since I last fitted one, I don't remember noticing that detail! Most likely I just fiddled around until the clutch ran OK - ish - & the fact I'd fitted the cage the correct way round to achieve this was just luck.
The biggest thing was with a 500 it would slip under hard acceleration, no matter how I adjusted it. It seemed better with a 350 except when at one stage when a sidecar was fitted. I eventually moved over to 4 spring clutches which in general seem to me to work better. However they are not without their problems, for instance the centre adaptors for these can be machined wrong, moving the whole clutch further out on the M.S. than is desired. I use ATF fluid in the chain-case but do wonder if this is as much an improvement as claimed.

I once used a 6 spring on a race bike (350) & it was OK; that was running dry with grease in the bearing & oil to the chain only. Not very practical for road use tho'.
On the 6 spring, on at least one occasion I found that on pressing in an outer race I then couldn't fit the rollers & cage I had, indicating mismatched or incorrectly made parts. I also had outer races wear badly, "furrows" - incorrectly hardened part? I always felt the bearing with it's flimsy little steel cage (never seen a bronze one) could easily have come from a bicycle rather than a 30-40 bhp M/C.
The difference between the BSA & Draganfly races re. surface roughness was interesting, BSA achieving a much better finish inner than the modern replacement but a less good outer (although not by much).

Regarding the Draganfly bearing, maybe you were unlucky but if I were them I would take pretty seriously a report as thorough as yours about a part. If nothing else they could use the info to improve their next batch. I have always assumed most dealers to be buyers in of parts rather than high quality engineers. They may specify what the part should be but rely on the supplier to maintain standards, being unable to test to your standard. That said, there are places they can use that will test quality, for a fee, which of course raises the cost to us. So many are unwilling to pay more for correct parts when cheaper (& all too often badly made) pattern parts are also available. Also many don't actually do much (or even any) mileage on their vintage bikes so the problems take a long time to be revealed. Unfortunately for those of us who like to ride, we discover the problems quickly & then have to sort them out...


na
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Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #712616
10/25/17 2:41 am
10/25/17 2:41 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
Magnetoman Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
Originally Posted by flowboy
for those of us who like to ride, we discover the problems quickly & then have to sort them out...
Thanks very much for your post. It's nice to know others find it useful how I sorted out the problems with the 6-spring clutch.

As an update, both Gold Stars on my recent 1200-mile ride had their clutches assembled as discussed in this thread and both worked perfectly the entire time. The clutch in neither bike slipped under acceleration nor dragged when disengaged, i.e. it was easy to select neutral when stopped with the bikes in gear, and the force required to operate the clutch levers was fine. I used 50W engine oil rather than ATF in both.

The Catalina had the SRM pushrod bearing conversion as shown in this thread, but the BB did not. Frankly, I didn't notice a difference in "feel" between the two so I'm not sure it's worth the effort or expense to fit that bearing. Although I have a second bearing on the shelf that I had planned to install in the BB's clutch I probably won't bother. Also, despite the time I spent measuring clutch cables to find the one with minimum stretch I used stock cables on both. Less stretch would have meant more lift, but the fact there wasn't any drag when disengaged despite 50W oil means the amount of lift was fine.

The Catalina's clutch is currently apart waiting for me to finish the ASCT gearbox. When I disassembled the clutch I "indexed" all the components with red paint to minimize the time it should take to get it operating properly again when reassembled.

I had trouble reinstalling the snap ring for the drive bearing and oil seal so I machined a "tool" from Al rod with OD that fit inside the recess and ID that cleared the projecting part of the oil seal. With this tool and a screwdriver it was very easy to "walk" around the circumference of the snap ring and hold it in the recess as the remaining portion of the snap ring was walked and nudged in as well. Once the snap ring was completely in the recess, pushing down on the tool popped it into the groove.

Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #720253
12/28/17 3:56 pm
12/28/17 3:56 pm
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 315
Kent, England
J
John Alexander Offline
BritBike Forum member
John Alexander  Offline
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J

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 315
Kent, England
Problem being with 6 spring clutches, any old clutch for that matter is you can no longer get original parts. Luckily my 6 spring clutch is original and i have a 500 Goldie with high gearing and RRT2 box, and like most running problems with classic bikes it's aftermarket parts which cause problems.
Goldie John.

Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: John Alexander] #720269
12/28/17 6:08 pm
12/28/17 6:08 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
Magnetoman Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Offline OP

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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
Originally Posted by John Alexander
Problem being with 6 spring clutches, any old clutch for that matter is you can no longer get original parts.
I'm not sure what to make of your comment given that no original parts of any kind have been made for any AJS, Ariel, BSA, Matchless, ... for ~50 years so this problem is hardly limited to BSA 6-spring clutches. That's why I went to considerable length to describe and show (well, show before the images disappeared) how to refurbish the worn components.

Since writing my previous post two months ago I finished the ASCT gearbox and swapped it for the SCT that was in the Catalina when I bought it. For what it's worth I also used that opportunity to replace the 18T engine sprocket with a 21T to make it less buzzy at highway speeds. Since the super-low 1st of the ASCT is 23% lower than that of the SCT the 17% increase in overall ratio actually makes 1st more useful. With a new sprocket in place the chain alignment changed so I shimmed the sprocket to reduce the misalignment with the clutch sprocket to ~0.009".

After I first assembled the Catalina's clutch some months ago I found it slipped when the torque was set at 11 ft.lbs. using the procedure described in point #4 in an earlier post. After I found it slipped I increased the torque to 15 ft.lbs. and it didn't slip. Since I had the clutch apart again I reduced it to 14 ft.lbs. to see if I could reduce the clutch lever force a little. It doesn't slip, but I probably won't try pushing this value down any more since the present clutch lever force isn't objectionable (it wasn't objectionable at 15 ft.lbs., either). As part of this adjusting process the final runout of the Cutch Actuating Cap (pressure plate) was ~0.003".


Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #720362
12/29/17 10:46 am
12/29/17 10:46 am
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 315
Kent, England
J
John Alexander Offline
BritBike Forum member
John Alexander  Offline
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J

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 315
Kent, England
That's exactly the point of this forum, it's people with your experience which can help people with parts no longer made by BSA who have to deal with aftermarket parts.
Goldie John

Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #720371
12/29/17 12:08 pm
12/29/17 12:08 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,087
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
BritBike Forum member
GrandPaul  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,087
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Very sad that this is just another screwed thread with photoSUCKit error notes...

(it was a great project)


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #720376
12/29/17 1:20 pm
12/29/17 1:20 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,549
Scotland
kommando Online content
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,549
Scotland
The pics are still showing but you have to update Chrome.

These are the latest fixes as the original work around does not work now.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/...x/kegnjbncdcliihbemealioapbifiaedg?hl=en

and

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/...g/ogipgokcopooepeipngiikdkpmcpkaon?hl=en

I now have all 3 in place and seeing the PB images again.

Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: kommando] #720393
12/29/17 5:17 pm
12/29/17 5:17 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,087
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
BritBike Forum member
GrandPaul  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,087
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Originally Posted by kommando
The pics are still showing but you have to update Chrome.

These are the latest fixes as the original work around does not work now.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/...x/kegnjbncdcliihbemealioapbifiaedg?hl=en

and

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/...g/ogipgokcopooepeipngiikdkpmcpkaon?hl=en

I now have all 3 in place and seeing the PB images again.

Cool! That fixed it.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #720507
12/30/17 4:31 pm
12/30/17 4:31 pm
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 631
B
bon Offline
BritBike Forum member
bon  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 631
This would be an excellent thread if photobucket had not made a mess of it.

Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: bon] #720516
12/30/17 7:10 pm
12/30/17 7:10 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
Magnetoman Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
Originally Posted by bon
This would be an excellent thread if photobucket had not made a mess of it.
Kommando's fix nicely de-messes it, but I have to assume such fixes only will be temporary until Photobucket's IT staff figures out how implement a more robust block.

Off line someone asked for a copy of an image I had posted several years ago on a Gold Star thread. I had offloaded old photos to a hard drive so I thought it would be faster to log into my Photobucket account and download the photo from there. I was wrong. Navigating their pop-up ads is a nightmare, and it would have been faster to find the photo on that external drive, but I kept at it to see if it was even possible.

If anyone (kommando?) knows a way I could "automatically" download all the images I have on Photobucket I would be most grateful. Ones associated with my longer threads (e.g. 6-spring clutch) are in folders on my computer, but many others are not. Since all of the photos I have on Photobucket have been resized for the web it would be convenient to get them into a single directory on my own computer. Downloading them one at a time from Photobucket isn't an option.

Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #720541
12/30/17 11:20 pm
12/30/17 11:20 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,266
Bolton Lancs UK
A
Andy Higham Online content
BritBike Forum member
Andy Higham  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
A

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,266
Bolton Lancs UK
When photo [censored] it issued their ransom demand I downloaded all my photos back to a folder in my PC. I can't remember exactly how but it was simple and quick


BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360 Challenger
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 OK Supreme
'36 OK Supreme
Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #720542
12/30/17 11:23 pm
12/30/17 11:23 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,266
Bolton Lancs UK
A
Andy Higham Online content
BritBike Forum member
Andy Higham  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
A

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,266
Bolton Lancs UK
There is an option to share an album via email, just email it to yourself


BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360 Challenger
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 OK Supreme
'36 OK Supreme
Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #720585
12/31/17 9:23 am
12/31/17 9:23 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,549
Scotland
kommando Online content
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,549
Scotland
To stop the popups I use in chrome this extension

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublock-origin/cjpalhdlnbpafiamejdnhcphjbkeiagm

Then you can enter popup free.

On the Album download via a zip file which you emailed to yourself, which I have used in the past, this seems to have been removed so you now need to download each picture individually. By using Andy's suggestion you get a link to each album but you still have to go into each picture and download it unless I am missing something.



The section on Album download via zip in the help section has been removed so it looks like that was taken away due to too many people getting all their pics too easily and then deleting their account.




Last edited by kommando; 12/31/17 9:36 am. Reason: can't show a photobucket help image
Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: kommando] #720942
01/03/18 2:26 pm
01/03/18 2:26 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
Magnetoman Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
Originally Posted by kommando
The section on Album download via zip in the help section has been removed...
Thanks for your information on this. It would have been nice to have all my old, resized photos in a single directory on my computer so I could easily find them if I wanted to reuse one of them, but it looks like that isn't going to be possible. Oh well. Thanks again.

Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #735617
05/17/18 3:54 am
05/17/18 3:54 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
Magnetoman Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
One person has argued in several places on BritBike that the design of the 6-spring clutch is fundamentally flawed. He notes that the 6 holes are randomly punched in the Clutch Actuating Cap with respect to the steel sheet so they might align with the grain direction of the rolled steel which, he says, would result in excess flexing when the cap is lifted. However, as a photograph of the Actuating Cap shows, this argument is incorrect. Any difference in bending stiffness between directions parallel and perpendicular to the grain in the rolled steel is far outweighed by the three dimensional structure pressed into the Cap. The alleged flexing is not present.

Attached Files Cap_roughness.jpg
Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: kommando] #735667
05/17/18 3:40 pm
05/17/18 3:40 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 223
SANTA FE
B
bsalloyd Offline

BritBike Forum member
bsalloyd  Offline

BritBike Forum member
B

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 223
SANTA FE
Your link took me to the Chrome store but did not show the patch. What are the names shown in the store?


1951 ZB GS
1953 BB GS
1953 Super Flash
1954 Vincent BS
1963 RGS

Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #735738
05/18/18 8:05 am
05/18/18 8:05 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,549
Scotland
kommando Online content
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,549
Scotland
For the pop-up blocker search for u origin, for the photobucket fixes search for photobucket.

Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #736717
05/27/18 5:00 pm
05/27/18 5:00 pm
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 53
Pacific NW
9
998John Offline

BritBike Forum member
998John  Offline

BritBike Forum member
9

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 53
Pacific NW
MM, Thanks for posting the detailed photos and research into making these clutches better. After being tempted to go with a Newby setup, I'm going to
spend more time rebuilding what I have. I have 3 Baskets and 5 'bicycle' bearings with measurements that vary quite a lot. This bearing seems to be
at the center of most of the problem. I've modified a 6007 deep grove ball bearing by removing material from one side of the outer race as well as material
from the opposite side of the inner race. The problem with the older baskets is that the hole for the bearing is machined in the stamped metal while the later
basket center is a riveted and spot welded center that is thicker. Has anyone else tried a such a bearing mod?

Re: BSA 6-Spring Clutch [Re: Magnetoman] #736733
05/27/18 6:08 pm
05/27/18 6:08 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
Magnetoman Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,732
U.S.
Originally Posted by 998John
a 6007 deep grove ball bearing ... Has anyone else tried a such a bearing mod?
Later clutches use rollers rather than balls, which have two potential advantages. One is rollers have greater contact area so are stronger. This is an actual, not a potential, advantage when used on a crankshaft rather than a clutch. The other is that for the same bearing clearance the length of the rollers allows less tilt of the basket than the side-by-side bearings of a 6-spring clutch.

Having examined the races in a half-dozen clutches in my hoard, it doesn't seem to me bearing strength is an issue. While I found Brinelling in portions of a few of the tracks which is consistent with overload, there also is rust, and I have no idea whether these were run without lubrication for periods in their life, so it's not possible for me to assign blame for the cause. For what it's worth, my conclusion is that the little 3/16" balls seem to be fine at carrying the small load imposed on them. If this conclusion is correct, the heavier load capacity of a deep groove ball bearing wouldn't be a benefit (but, no harm, either).

Where a deep groove ball bearing would have a potential disadvantage is in alignment. Rather than two balls spaced ~0.2" apart there would be just one ball. However, the grooves in the races limit how much they can be canted with respect to each other so I wouldn't expect this to be a problem in practice, at least when the bearing is new. The 'engineering' section of bearing catalogs should have specifications on this.

While I'm not sure your bearing modification would result in any improvement in performance of the clutch, as long as there aren't any clearance issues due to the thickness of the bearing (0.55" vs. 0.41" for the BSA outer race) there doesn't seem to be any reason why it might degrade performance, either.

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