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Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #681504
01/15/17 9:51 pm
01/15/17 9:51 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline OP
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Mike Baker  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Balancing will need to take a back seat for now. I'm not doing anything till I put some time on it and see how it acts.
Right now I'm trying to figure out why I'm not getting spark. Boyer alternator powered ignition. Spinning on the rollers, I'm getting 12ish v at the coil but for some reason, we're not triggering a spark. Changed the coil, bypassed the kill switch, checked continuity on the trigger wires, it's a head scratcher.

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Re: 650 for the track [Re: bill50cal] #681535
01/16/17 9:08 am
01/16/17 9:08 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 201
Nova Scotia, Canada
K
koncretekid Offline
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K

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 201
Nova Scotia, Canada
bill50cal,
Thanks for the suggestion. It makes sense in that the vertical out-of-balance should be decreased with a 70% balance factor even if the horizontal vibes increase. My bike is long so maybe the length will somehow absorb those horizontal vibrations better than the relatively short vertical height (and my hands) can absorb vibrations. So maybe for the next rebuild.

Back to Mike, your decision not to spend time on balancing is well founded, as nobody seems to know exactly what's correct for your situation, anyhow! Good luck and if you make it to Miller in Utah, I might catch up with you (but not literally!)

Tom

Last edited by koncretekid; 01/16/17 9:12 am. Reason: added comment

Life's uncertain - go fast now!
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #683903
02/06/17 9:03 am
02/06/17 9:03 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 257
terra Australis
P
Pre Unit Offline
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P

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 257
terra Australis
http://i39.tinypic.com/2ljrr0l.jpg

The 54 / 56 pipes , if you cut a few inches off the front , tuck in well .
But Not as well as ' T.T. ' Pipes .

2 7 1/2 with wassel megas , itll ' come on the pipe ' about 7.000 ,
and give another 1.000 plus r.p.m., in third & Top .

however , in the Lower Gears itll come in about 4 or 5.000 .

A few Head Mods , and catching a shift with the heavy crank Id Think a bit awkward on tarmac .
May Better on the dirt ? .

-----------------------------------------------------------

The CHAIN was to secure it whilst abscent at the Bobby Dylan Concert ! The Chainee had put a yamaha into a wall the only other time he'd been on a motorcycle. Started Out on the
unsealed road through to ' Town ' .
It was in a good mood that day ,
sitting on 90 smoothly , as the ' sweet spot ' .

Could Run one more tooth - 25 T on the engine .
But 110 in third wasnt bad. Consistantly . on 24.

Calculate the Gearing & rpms . Exceptional Head on it, For Then

Had it Valve Float up where a nutter'd rev a Triumph To
Most people couldnt start it. 18 Collapsed around it ,
one day .
When I returned from a spin , overdue . On a Commando .

P.S. , if you turned him round , youd notice it had no chainguard that day. Somehow .

pss , your pm thingos FULL . [Linked Image]

Last edited by Pre Unit; 02/06/17 9:17 am.
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Pre Unit] #683907
02/06/17 9:21 am
02/06/17 9:21 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 257
terra Australis
P
Pre Unit Offline
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P

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 257
terra Australis
Same ' mufflers ' are fitted to this. They couldnt be termed
' Restrictive '. Theres a few other advantages as with the perforated baffle incandescent , the pulse is enhanced . [Linked Image]

On a Triumph , at least . Ran 270 Main Jets . [Linked Image]

Last edited by Pre Unit; 02/06/17 9:22 am.
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #686187
02/27/17 11:58 am
02/27/17 11:58 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline OP
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Mike Baker  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Back from the first race weekend in Savannah. Had some clutch problems, all due to the guy who built the motor. Luckily, nothing catastrophic, only embarrassing. As for the bike, it ran well, pulled like a freight train off the corners, handled well considering I'm coming from a bike thats over 100 lbs lighter.
Ran the bike to 7.5K several times on the long straight and was not shaken off the seat. Actually the vibes were well within my personal acceptable range.
Could have used some taller gears at this track but it's a pretty fast one, so will stay at 20/46 for CMP in 4 weeks which is a lot tighter circuit. My fears about scraping pipes did not happen, lots of ground clearance. All things considered, a successful first outing and I think I'm going to like this beast!
Mike

Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #686209
02/27/17 3:49 pm
02/27/17 3:49 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,174
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Sounds like the bike is doing the job. What other bikes were on the track, vintage ?


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #686306
02/28/17 11:41 am
02/28/17 11:41 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline OP
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Mike Baker  Offline OP
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It's AHRMA. They have maybe 25 different classes. Anything from CB160 to full on modern Ducs, BMWs, Guzzis....
Most races have multiple classes run together, one class starts, when the starter determines all have safely gotten off, he will start the next wave, etc.
I'd say that 60-70 % of the bikes are vintage. CB 350s seem most popular and can be very competitive and depending on prep qualify for various classes.
Lots of 250 2 strokes, and there were I believe 14 Aermacchis at Roebling this year. Most said they had never seen that many in 1 place. And of course some very nicely prepared Brits including a new Seely Norton that Kenny Cummins built for John Snead. Just wow.
If you go to E Tech photo, they will have pictures of the races posted, usually about 4-5 days after

Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #691520
04/13/17 3:02 am
04/13/17 3:02 am
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 115
Alaska
L
linker48x Offline
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Posts: 115
Alaska
My Nourish crank came balanced 85% and with aluminum rods it was smooth- I think you could have put a coffee cup on the tank down the back at Daytona without spilling a drop. Dave Nourish also gave me second balance plug to use with the much heavier Carillos I use now after I broke an aluminum aftermarket rod and sawed an engine in half. I use this combination now, but it is not so smooth. Everything I did to strengthen the bottom end (Carillos, Nourish crank) made the bike slower but safer than stock parts. No worries, after chasing the broken part all over this engine and replacing it each time with engineered racing parts, I am left with no stock Triumph moving parts, AND, no more breaking parts. Just be aware, not everyone selling "race" parts knows what they are doing, and some of those expensive and pretty parts aren't all that helpful. There are also some really good parts out there. FWIW

I am at the 102.5 /103.5 range on cam timing, just what Megacycle recommends for my mild 5-1060s. Nice spread of power. More exhaust degrees (106) meant more rpm, less torque, less spread of power, no real difference in top speed I could see, but slower lap times. I felt like this whole exercise was chasing 63-65 hp and 50 ft/lbs up and down the tach without finding any more power, and that Jim Dour at Megacycle and his late dad knew a heckuva lot more than I did, so I use their numbers.

Good to see a new Triumph road racer. Welcome!

Last edited by linker48x; 04/13/17 3:06 am.
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #691553
04/13/17 2:08 pm
04/13/17 2:08 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,125
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Reminds me of the stock A65 cam I used to run on albeit my road bike. I was unawre for years that I was running the bike with the wrong crankshaft timing pinion and when I eventually dialed the camshaft in properly it was 20 degrees advanced, made great torque and still revved in the lower gears, Infact it made upto 105 with that setup (as clocked on my GPS) I did a lot of work to try and improve the torque (thinking torque at top end wasnt enough - and it isn't with the stock A65) and reduced the ports on the head, worked a treat and flew up to that same speed and wouldn't go any faster ( like a brick wall). I eventually dialed the cam in and retarded the timing by 1 tooth (so still 3.5-4 degrees advanced on stock timing) and it changed the bike, dropped a little bit of noticable power at bottom end (but no worse than when standard setup) but it returned 107 in 3rd gear, Busy roads meant I wasn't able to change into top. This was about 7200 RPM, the head mod I did meant it wouldn't rev past that anyway.


I later found the correct pinion and tried it again with timing as it should be but I never improved on that speed, infact it wasn't as quick.

Also made the motor a lot stronger, balanced the crank (which would have reduced weight) and fitted stronger- heavier con rods. It's taken about 3 years to get it back about where it was for speed, and the original head I worked is away for repair as it has a leaking plug thread. But apart from having clearance issues between the crank and the cases which binded as the engine got hot, or rather a bearing issue because of a replacement crank being machined a tiny bit different to the original, and a pair of 2mm bigger carbs its starting to show good again. But this time with a megacycle X12 cam and having similar lobe centres to yours.


beerchug
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #691578
04/13/17 4:46 pm
04/13/17 4:46 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline OP
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Mike Baker  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
My Triumph is a work in progress. Given a limited budget, things like a Nourish crank and belt drive are not going to happen. (so I say now...) I'd like to see how far I can take this motor on basically stock parts. It feels strong off the corners and the wide torque band makes it easy for this rookie to ride.
We need more people getting these bikes on the racetrack and if it can be done in a way that people can afford, so much better for the sport. Had a great race with Jake H at CMP on Sunday. Our bikes are similarly prepared and we finished less than 1/10 second apart. For me it's not so much how fast I can go but more about some really good competition. Riding by myself is sort of boring.
So Linker... you going to come east this Oct?

Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720127
12/27/17 1:10 pm
12/27/17 1:10 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline OP
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Mike Baker  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
I've pulled the top end from the race bike for a check and found some interesting issues. First and easy to fix was when I assembled the rocker boxes, I didn't have the final washer lined up with the large diameter of the shaft. It compressed the spring allowing the rocker to float on the shaft. No real damage but something to watch. What could have been bad was the small crack found starting from the pin boss in the old stock MC piston. These were set up at 50 thou clearance. And when removed and measured, were at 70 thou. Funny thing is this motor was one of the quietest I've heard. I'd think it would be slapping like crazy. But I wonder if all that clearance may have contributed to the crack? The bores were still good, straight and round. And Rob H said he's seen cast pistons shrink after several heat cycles. Anyway, guess it's time to look for something else to put in there.
2 months till Roebling Road......

Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720136
12/27/17 3:27 pm
12/27/17 3:27 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 201
Nova Scotia, Canada
K
koncretekid Offline
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Posts: 201
Nova Scotia, Canada
Mike,
When I read about your experiences and about Kevin's new road racer, it makes me want to re-join the crowd with my B50. I got a bit discouraged racing it because AHRMA classifies it as "too new" to run in Classic '60's and is relegated to run only in 'Sportsman' which strangely allows Honda CB 350's with their twin cylinder, OHC, short stroke screamers to bore out their cylinders to something like 427cc, but they won't let us shorten the stroke on our BSA B50's so we can be more competitive. So I have this great old B50 Ted Hubbard built road racer but am relegated to run near the back of the pack against some really fast Honda riders in 500 Sportsman. Maybe just sour grapes, but the incentive is gone.

I could maybe build a B44 to run in Classic 60's, but strangely it is not even listed as being allowed in that class. Not to mention that the B44's are not known to successful in road racing due to some shortcomings that were rectified with the B50.

Tom

P.S. I hope you meant 5 thousandths clearance and not 50!!!


Life's uncertain - go fast now!
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720183
12/27/17 10:19 pm
12/27/17 10:19 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline OP
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Mike Baker  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Of course you're right. 5 and 7 thousandths.
Carpenters that work to 16ths and 32nds don't quickly comprehend decimals.
Tom, we'd welcome you to whatever class you can get into. Granted it's not much fun if you're not competitive. Had the same problem when I raced lightweight production on a 350 Aermacchi. Those Hondas are fast!
Get yourself a 650 Tri or BSA, make it safe and reliable and come on out! Always looking for some fresh mea.....err I mean competition!

Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720184
12/27/17 10:23 pm
12/27/17 10:23 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline OP
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Mike Baker  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
I think the Classic 60's class is meant to include pre 1960 type bikes. Probably why your B44 isn't listed.
I believe Rob Hall ran a B50 in sportsman and did well. Not that his riding skills had ANYTHING to do with it.....

Last edited by Mike Baker; 12/27/17 10:25 pm.
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720666
12/31/17 11:03 pm
12/31/17 11:03 pm
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 632
SEATTLE WA
S
SEATTLE GS Offline
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SEATTLE WA
can you run racing fuel? works great even cut 50-50 with premium gas.

Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720782
01/01/18 7:40 pm
01/01/18 7:40 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline OP
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Asheville, NC
Race fuel is available at all the tracks I've been to. There are usually pumps that have 93, 100 and 107 octane.
Well, the MAP pistons have arrived. Tony, you use these, no? If you don't mind, what thickness base gasket and head gasket worked out for you? Did you need to machine the valve pockets?

Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720807
01/01/18 10:03 pm
01/01/18 10:03 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,571
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

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DOPE

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ohio, usa
lol, machined . . .


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720820
01/02/18 12:28 am
01/02/18 12:28 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,174
Running from demons in WNY
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by Mike Baker
Race fuel is available at all the tracks I've been to. There are usually pumps that have 93, 100 and 107 octane.
Well, the MAP pistons have arrived. Tony, you use these, no? If you don't mind, what thickness base gasket and head gasket worked out for you? Did you need to machine the valve pockets?



Yes, I use the 10.5 compression in the single engine and dual engine bikes.....039 head gaskets, no base gasket to arrive at a .032 -036 quench for the single engine...I had "ghost" piston to valve contact, with Sifton 390 cams set at 101-102 degrees intake center line.Sifton recommends 105 but I had set the cams by .040 lift and it came out to 102. The cam has.390 lift....The contact happened after the rider missed a gear, nothing bent....I cut the valve pockets deeper by about .030-.040 . I did it by hand with a Dremel tool...Bike ran consistent 127 MPH like that..Cam timing changed to 105 and 107.5, the bike went faster...The dual engine bike has Web #330 cams, a bit more duration and lift.Intake centerline is 104 degrees..Same .039 head gasket and no base gaskets...Quench on one is .032 and the other bit tighter ...Nothing hits but this engine has MAP steel rods.These engines are not supposed to rev beyond 7100 on the track but have seen 7500 on the dyno....You have MAP rods?


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720845
01/02/18 12:00 pm
01/02/18 12:00 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline OP
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Mike Baker  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,017
Asheville, NC
Thanks. The instructions say to use a base gasket and a .045 head gasket. CYA I guess. I'm inclined to start where you are - no base and a .039 head gasket and see what happens. Can always go bigger. I have a stock ex and T140 in cams set at 101.5 and 104 so there shouldn't be a problem with the valves. We'll see.
Did you set the bores up for .050 clearance?
Yes, I have MAP steel rods. 5 race weekends last year and all appears good. Going to try to squeeze a couple more in this year.

Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720853
01/02/18 2:48 pm
01/02/18 2:48 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,174
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Mike, Map instructions are on the safe side to avoid problems from those who don't check clearances..You may have valve to piston clearance issues with the intake cam at 101.5 , be sure to check....Moving the timing to 103 will give about .025 or more piston to valve clearance from my measurements. It may also move the torque up up few hundred RPM , but this depends on other tuning factors. ...I use .006 piston clearances...The fact seems to be a 650 has little quench no matter what type piston..The engine in my bike runs a lot better than it should considering the moderate tune and my being causal about some details that others endlessly fuss over...The only thing different is the MAP pistons held to a very tight quench...Keep in mind I am no expert engine tuner and I might have just lucked out.....


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Hillbilly bike] #720900
01/02/18 9:53 pm
01/02/18 9:53 pm
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,816
OZ
Triless Offline
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" I'm no expert engine tuner " ......... maybe by your definition, Tony, but in my book, a bloody good one , then !

Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720905
01/02/18 11:45 pm
01/02/18 11:45 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,571
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

DOPE
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ohio, usa
tony, you won't give yourself credit, but i do.

you built and tuned the fastest production-framed gasoline triumph 650 in the world, and your bike is within three-tenths of a mile per hour of alp sungertekin's fastest highly altered 650 special.

i don't know what the past records were or even if they are comparable, but there isn't anything remotely resembling a stock-based triumph running that's faster than yours.


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: 650 for the track [Re: kevin roberts] #720906
01/02/18 11:50 pm
01/02/18 11:50 pm
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Posts: 1,816
OZ
Triless Offline
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You're no bloody slouch, either, Kevin !

Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720907
01/03/18 12:00 am
01/03/18 12:00 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,571
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

DOPE
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ohio, usa
lol

i'm trying to do it with brute force, not brains.

lobe centers? what's that? (furiously googles cam timing . . .)


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: 650 for the track [Re: Mike Baker] #720910
01/03/18 12:20 am
01/03/18 12:20 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,174
Running from demons in WNY
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Running from demons in WNY
Wow, thanks for the vote confidence, it means something coming from you guys...I believe Kevin's bike has the potential to be the next record holder. You do know that Push Rod Tom and his BSA will be like a Triumph seeking missile this summer..But I believe Ken can take the win if he sets his intake lobe center to around 104 and the exhaust around 107 degrees...


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
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