BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
Jwood & co JRC Engineering dealers Jwood & co
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
slug
slug
hereford uk
Posts: 31
Joined: August 2012
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
39 registered members (998John), 296 guests, and 469 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
hondapete1950, Gaspare, eberhard, Norman Woollons, LandoLando
10257 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Stuart 77
Lannis 55
TBolt72 47
Popular Topics(Views)
611,168 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics67,154
Posts651,698
Members10,257
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 19 of 48 1 2 17 18 19 20 21 47 48
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719826
12/23/17 6:21 pm
12/23/17 6:21 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,332
Scotland
kommando Offline
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,332
Scotland
Quote
If you cut the disks to size and found a way to seal their edges as well as the bolt hole it certainly would work.


End rod seals, these are dished, rubber on the OD and steel in the centre.

https://sealsit.com/product/ws1000-rod-end-seal/

[Linked Image]

Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: kommando] #719839
12/23/17 8:41 pm
12/23/17 8:41 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,974
Greensboro, NC
Alan_nc Offline
BritBike Forum member
Alan_nc  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,974
Greensboro, NC
Slightly off topic:
Bore: Why does it matter which end you bore a cylinder from if - you are holding on a surface with a known relationship to the cylinder and you are allowing for any error?


Alan
Cleared m out....left only
59 BSA Bantam (Trials)
78 Triumph Bonny (UPS)
02 Suzuki GS500
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719842
12/23/17 9:54 pm
12/23/17 9:54 pm
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 62
England
G
George Kaplan Offline
BritBike Forum member
George Kaplan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
G
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 62
England
Originally Posted by Magnetoman


I don't have experience with this but I hope this large amount of wobble can be corrected by careful reassembly and doesn't mean the tapers have been permanently distorted.



Unfortunately I don't have experience in this either but I did watch these two youtube videos recently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfcUFelP5_w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyHRnba50fI

The second one shows lapping of a crankpin to correct a misalignment where it fits in the flywheel which was picked up in the first video. It occurs to me that a similar technique could perhaps be used in your situation except you are correcting a issue with the shafts rather than the pin.

I am just guessing here but it might be worth checking out unless anyone has a better idea or if just careful reassembly reduces your run out to an acceptable level.

John

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Alan_nc] #719844
12/23/17 9:59 pm
12/23/17 9:59 pm
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,137
Sydney, Oz
S
Shane in Oz Offline
BritBike Forum member
Shane in Oz  Offline
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,137
Sydney, Oz
Originally Posted by Alan_nc
Slightly off topic:
Bore: Why does it matter which end you bore a cylinder from if - you are holding on a surface with a known relationship to the cylinder and you are allowing for any error?

It's the "if" which can bite. The bore needs to be absolutely perpendicular to the crankshaft so the piston runs parallel to the bore. Provided the top face of the crankcase is parallel to the crankshaft (and MM's will be), the bottom face of the cylinder flange is also parallel to the crankshaft and forms the reference face for boring.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719846
12/23/17 10:10 pm
12/23/17 10:10 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Online Content OP

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
Originally Posted by commando
End rod seals, ...
Thanks, but I'm set for now with the Kapton for the bearing but welcome ideas of a substance to paint on the camshaft that's insoluble in water but easily dissolves afterwards in acetone, ethanol, or whatever.

Originally Posted by Alan_nc
Why does it matter which end you bore a cylinder from if - you are holding on a surface with a known relationship to the cylinder
It doesn't matter if the top of the cylinder is accurately parallel to the base of the mounting flange. But, you can't count on that happening. Actually, it's best to count on it not happening. In the case of my Ariel I had to remove 0.015" from the base to make it parallel to the top face. Had I not done that, and if it were bored upside down. the cylinder would have ended up tilted by that amount with respect to the base. If that tilt all were in the side-to-side direction it would have forced the piston back and forth by that amount on each revolution.

It took ~150 ft.lbs. to loosen the nut holding the drive-side spindle then ~3800 lbs in the press to pop it loose.

With a torque wrench, big copper hammer, and more than a dozen trips between the lathe and vise, I now have the drive side wobble reduced from 0.016" to 0.0035". I torqued the nut in stages, each time measuring the wobble, marking with paint, and developing a calibrated hammer arm to whack it and remeasure to see what I had accomplished. Whacking components of a machine with a big hammer seems so very, very wrong.

I now hope someone like chaterlea25 with experience in such matters weighs in with advice on whether ~0.003" is enough for now, given I'll have to go through it again when the crankpin is installed, or if I need to continue until I get both shafts individually closer to 0.000" in order to ensure I'll be able to get the overall runout of the assembled flywheel no worse than 0.001".

While I had the spindle removed I used the opportunity to Magnaflux it and the flywheel. Both passed the test (I'll do the other flywheel/spindle and connecting rod later today, or tomorrow). I also used a wire brush and two hours in my favorite de-rusting solution to make the end of the spindle that sticks into the primary case look a lot better than it was.


p.s. several replies came in while I was composing my post off-line so I'll read them and watch those videos.

p.p.s. 0.016" at a distance 4" from the spindle means the the ~1" taper would have to have ~0.004" removed from it. Not only would that require a lot of lapping, it would make the taper too large for the spindle to fit without bottoming out on the shoulder before it was seated.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 12/24/17 12:07 am. Reason: p.s., p.p.s. and torque/pressure paragraph
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719859
12/23/17 11:19 pm
12/23/17 11:19 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 615
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
BritBike Forum member
koan58  Offline
BritBike Forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 615
Isle of Wight, UK
You're doing a cracking job MM.
I am relieved that you are taking the trouble to double-check the balance calculations. Ideally, another technically minded peep would work through it independently. However, most of it is straightforward, and any error should be obvious as you go through it again.
My query about the 38.9g was only that I couldn't see how it was being employed.
My point about the mass of the small end bush is absolute, and I wouldn't like you to make calculations based on a false quantity.

I first converted all of your dimensions into cm:

conrod eye radius R = 1.508 R sq = 2.274

ID of original bush radius Ro = 1.270 Ro sq = 1.613

ID of reducing bush radius Rr = 1.032 Rr sq = 1.065

Cross sectional areas:

original bush = pi X (2.274 - 1.613) = 2.077

reducing bush = pi X (2.274 - 1.065) = 3,798

X - sectional difference between bushes = 1.71 cm sq


Now, say both bushes are just the width of the conrod = 2.210 cm

Volumetric difference = 2.210 X 1.71 = 3.78 cm3 X density 8.7 = 32.9g


This doesn't allow for the reducing bush extending beyond the limits of the small end eye.


Hope it's helpful,
Dave

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719865
12/23/17 11:49 pm
12/23/17 11:49 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,874
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,874
argyll. scotland, uk
I didnt see a 3rd finale to that lapping video, probably bell mouthed the female hole, the bigger OD cuts faster than the minor, where the paste goes is critical for lapping tapers. At work , the large machines ( 240 ton rotating mass, 500 rpm) were allowed 0.008" radial run out over a 26 foot shaft supported/ aligned by a taper fitted thrust collar, best I ever saw was 0.003 " , at 4 inches from the collar the runout would have been so low we would not have been able to detect it with the clocks we used.. The collar was stretched hydraulically and pushed down then retained by semi circular keys like giant circlip,
To seat the collar the weight of the machine was allowed to bear on it as the pressure from the expander gear was relaxed, usually with a decent bang . Sometimes we honed keys , other times we used shims, 2 thou max., if a key was out by a 1/10 of a baw hair it would throw the run out . Not quite the same scale though! Does illustrate how the top register fit will influence final run out.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 12/23/17 11:55 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719866
12/23/17 11:49 pm
12/23/17 11:49 pm
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 321
Irene, South Africa
R
robcurrie Online content
BritBike Forum member
robcurrie  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 321
Irene, South Africa
Regarding a waterproof removable coating, Rustoleum make a flexible rubber spray-on coating which can be peeled off.

Rob C

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: robcurrie] #719871
12/24/17 12:15 am
12/24/17 12:15 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Online Content OP

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
Originally Posted by koan58
I am relieved that you are taking the trouble to double-check the balance calculations.
Even though I might not immediately act or reply to them, I definitely appreciate all input and suggestions. I'm certainly not proceeding in a linear fashion through this rebuild but there are limits to my ability to multitask and work in parallel. This means when I've put something aside I might need to leave it dormant for a while. Earlier this month I was in the UAE and from there to Australia so in the runup to that long trip I devoted quite a bit of my time to getting items ordered so they could start arriving while I was away. I wrote the draft of the balance factor post at 30,000 ft. and then checked it while still jet lagged after my return from having gone through 24 time zones so would be disappointed, but not surprised, if an error slipped through.

Originally Posted by robcurrie
Rustoleum make a flexible rubber spray-on coating which can be peeled off.
'Flexidip'. Thanks for pointing that out. It looks like it might be perfect, as long as it doesn't leave too much residue behind in the nooks and crannies when it's pealed off. I'll buy a can and try it. Thanks again.

The connecting rod passed the Magnaflux test, leaving the timing side spindle and flywheel yet to test.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719874
12/24/17 12:52 am
12/24/17 12:52 am
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 615
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
BritBike Forum member
koan58  Offline
BritBike Forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 615
Isle of Wight, UK
I'm not comfortable about the wire around the outside of the bearing. For one, it will have a higher potential than the bearing outer, distorting the migration, possibly even ending up welded to the bearing.

I'm trying to think of a way to put the cathode wires into a bearing, such that electrical contact is perfect to the outer race, without the wire itself interfering electrically.

I have a germ of an idea. Suppose the bearing is perfectly degreased. Then a multistrand copper cable is stripped back ~2", frayed out and the strands stuck in the bearing (maybe even anneal the strands) so that they jam between the balls and race, with a modicum of force to ensure contact. Wiggling back and forth with enough wires in enough places will get a jammed situation soon enough.
This will give a more even potential around the bearing.

Now the insulated wire must be embedded in wax, with the bearing.

Then carefully remove the wax from the perimeter, now I'm losing faith!

This plating business is easier said than done, for instance you don't want copper on the bearings, the tiniest leak will allow that to happen.
Interesting stuff.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: koan58] #719875
12/24/17 1:01 am
12/24/17 1:01 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Online Content OP

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
Originally Posted by koan58
t will have a higher potential than the bearing outer, distorting the migration, possibly even ending up welded to the bearing.
No, the wire will have precisely the same potential as the bearing. The plating potential is only ~4 V so the wire won't be welded to the bearing.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719877
12/24/17 1:31 am
12/24/17 1:31 am
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 615
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
BritBike Forum member
koan58  Offline
BritBike Forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 615
Isle of Wight, UK
MM,
No, of all people you should know that potential difference changes with resistance, so for instance 4V supply when it gets to the bearing, could be 3.9V.
Now, a 4V cathode vs a 3.9V cathode will make a difference, in ion migration.
All I am saying is that the wire should be insulated from the electrolyte. Dave

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: koan58] #719878
12/24/17 1:42 am
12/24/17 1:42 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Online Content OP

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
Originally Posted by koan58
potential difference changes with resistance,
Yes, but the contact resistance will be milliohms or less in air, let alone in a conductive solution, and the current less than 500 mA, so the potential drop will be less than a mV. This will have a totally negligible effect.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719880
12/24/17 2:29 am
12/24/17 2:29 am
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 615
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
BritBike Forum member
koan58  Offline
BritBike Forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 615
Isle of Wight, UK
Fair dinkum, lets see.
Where I'm coming from is to give you the best chance of an even coating of copper in the right place.
It is all about how charged particles move in an electric field.
A voltage of X will be imposed on the object, a similar voltage will exist on the wires leading to the object. The field around the wires will be more attractive to the cations than the more surface-rich object.
I do think that the feed wires should be isolated from the electrolyte, but this is new to me too, but I do want you to be successful! Dave

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719885
12/24/17 2:48 am
12/24/17 2:48 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,344
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,344
New Jersey USA
"I'll curve the Cu anode into a cylinder"---from an earlier posting by MMan.
I would certainly recommend an anode exactly the shape of the outer bearing surface.
This will give as even a coating as possible. In my first job as a development engineer I was involved in electrochemical machining (the reverse of plating) and the electrode shape was critical in getting the desired results. We even experimented with electrodes that were moved during the process to achieve the desired result. Then did things like rotating the workpiece and made things that are impossible to machine using conventional means. Bit of a solution looking for a problem situation as we couldn't figure out a use for it!
Very far sighted organization---Friday afternoons were free--you could do anything using the companies facilities.
A couple of the things coming out of that were the automatic choke for carbs on cars and the first gas engine fuel injection system that was economic to produce.
But I digress----keep up the good work ,MMan.
Do you have the dates for the Cannonball Run in 2018?---particularly the start date?
Over Christmas I want to start planting some seeds about how nice a vacation would be in Maine next year!

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Tridentman] #719886
12/24/17 3:08 am
12/24/17 3:08 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Online Content OP

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
Originally Posted by Tridentman
Do you have the dates for the Cannonball Run in 2018?---particularly the start date?
The start will be September 8, but everyone will be there a few days before that.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719900
12/24/17 10:41 am
12/24/17 10:41 am
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 779
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
BritBike Forum member
gunner  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 779
Farnham, Surrey, UK
Regarding masking of parts being electroplated, one option is to use specialised electroplating masking tape, see This Link as an example.

It's claimed that this tape is resistant to all electroplating chemicals & solvents up to 170f, is abrasion resistant and has an adhesive rubber backing with excellent adhesion to most surfaces.

Available on Amazon see Link


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719917
12/24/17 3:17 pm
12/24/17 3:17 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Online Content OP

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,441
U.S.
As 2017 draws to a close and the 2018 Cannonball draws rapidly nearer, best holiday wishes to everyone who has been following along on this thread. My special thanks to those who have taken the time to contribute. The Honor Roll of contributors, in order of appearance, for whom I hope Santa will be especially nice tomorrow (or today, if you're from down under), is:

robcurrie
kevin roberts
Adam M.
gRegg-K
gavin eisler
Triless
Shane in Oz
Richard Kal
Hillbilly bike
johnm
Stuart
Bruce Martin
Alan_nc
norton bob
Tridentman
RPM
JubeePrince
Villiers
franko
kommando
No Name Man
Lannis
edunham
KevinN
chaterlea25
Tribsauk
old mule
triton thrasher
George Kaplan
koncretekid
Rich B
gunner
koan58
L.A.kevin
(and apologies to anyone I accidentally left off this list)

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719927
12/24/17 5:09 pm
12/24/17 5:09 pm
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 321
Irene, South Africa
R
robcurrie Online content
BritBike Forum member
robcurrie  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 321
Irene, South Africa
Thanks MM and a Merry Christmas to you and yours as well.

Rob C

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719932
12/24/17 6:03 pm
12/24/17 6:03 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,110
Ottawa, Canada
gREgg-K Offline

BritBike Forum member
gREgg-K  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,110
Ottawa, Canada
Wishing you the best of luck in the challenge MM. Mind you, with the thorough preparations you are doing, not much luck is going to be needed!

.. Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
magneto@spyder-it.com
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719938
12/24/17 6:24 pm
12/24/17 6:24 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 779
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
BritBike Forum member
gunner  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 779
Farnham, Surrey, UK
Best wishes MM, have a great Christmas and New Year, especially on the Cannonball run.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719949
12/24/17 8:35 pm
12/24/17 8:35 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 615
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
BritBike Forum member
koan58  Offline
BritBike Forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 615
Isle of Wight, UK
Thanks MM. Have a gold-plated time yerself! Dave

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719954
12/24/17 10:26 pm
12/24/17 10:26 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,874
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,874
argyll. scotland, uk
Thanks for the thread, and have a great Christmas and New Year.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719958
12/24/17 10:38 pm
12/24/17 10:38 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,344
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,344
New Jersey USA
Merry Christmas, MMan and a Happy and Healthy 2018 with peak fitness and reliability in September 2018!

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #719968
12/25/17 5:37 am
12/25/17 5:37 am
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 181
Los Angeles, CA
L
L.A.kevin Offline
BritBike Forum member
L.A.kevin  Offline
BritBike Forum member
L
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 181
Los Angeles, CA
This thread has been a great Xmas present to us all. Thanks so much for some excellent reading.

Page 19 of 48 1 2 17 18 19 20 21 47 48


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1