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Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #718516
12/12/17 1:39 pm
12/12/17 1:39 pm
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Posts: 3,485
Running from demons in WNY
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Never take my comments literally......or too seriously....


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
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Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #718543
12/12/17 7:47 pm
12/12/17 7:47 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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ohio, usa
weird ideas is how new stuff happens.


live every day.
die once.
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #720152
12/27/17 6:00 pm
12/27/17 6:00 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
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ohio, usa
got a 65 TR6SR front frame section to add to my pile of parts.

pictures as soon as i get a day off. been working straight through the holidays.


live every day.
die once.
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721309
01/06/18 10:20 pm
01/06/18 10:20 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
worked 16 days straight from mid-december through yesterday, making the country energy efficient for all you people with with natural gas heat.

and here is a great pile of junk, some of which i've posted pictures of before.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

i don't need anything else except some studs for the rocker boxes and rearsets to have a functioning motorcycle. but the motor is going to have to go down to the sludge trap. i bought it as a spare for the mile bike, and have never taken it apart. it might be bored to large for AHMRA, as i can't remember what it is. but for a trackday machine that doesn't matter.


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Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721320
01/06/18 11:22 pm
01/06/18 11:22 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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ohio, usa
had some thoughts. i really really like not having an electrical system on the mile bike using the ARD magneto, and i happen to have a lytedrive timing casting and pulley wheels designed to use a joe hunt magneto. i thought about buying th emag to use on this, but then i remembered that i already have a complete pazon setup for a single-plug triumph head that wouldn't cost me anything. the joe hunt magneto would run about eight c-notes.

so it's the pazon for the moment, although i'll have to scrounge a battery and install an alternator. i thought maybe i'd be able to get rid of that too.


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die once.
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721372
01/07/18 1:17 pm
01/07/18 1:17 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,902
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline
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Asheville, NC
It's distressing to me that you're not building this bike to come out and play with me and my degenerate friends. Trackdays. Just a brief flirtation, a gateway drug. I'll give you 1 season at best and then you'll want the full monte. C'mon, build it up right the first time - you'll be ahead in the end.
The Aermacchi I built for my first season used a little alarm battery and no alternator. I charged it every day but really didn't need to.

I've got a friend that I think I've talked into putting his BSA on the track this year. And Semper Gumby is moving in that direction too. This could become a really fun class to run in with more bikes.

Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721378
01/07/18 2:05 pm
01/07/18 2:05 pm
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 456
new jersey usa
P
pushrod tom Offline
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new jersey usa
K, The pazon will run for hours on just a battery so you can skip the alternator. PRT

Re: trackbike [Re: Mike Baker] #721433
01/07/18 11:11 pm
01/07/18 11:11 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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ohio, usa
Originally Posted by Mike Baker
It's distressing to me that you're not building this bike to come out and play with me and my degenerate friends. Trackdays. Just a brief flirtation, a gateway drug. I'll give you 1 season at best and then you'll want the full monte. C'mon, build it up right the first time - you'll be ahead in the end.
The Aermacchi I built for my first season used a little alarm battery and no alternator. I charged it every day but really didn't need to.

I've got a friend that I think I've talked into putting his BSA on the track this year. And Semper Gumby is moving in that direction too. This could become a really fun class to run in with more bikes.



lol.

i'm already building the machine to conform to AHRMA standards for classic sixties-- that's why it has a drum brake on the front instead of the much cheaper disc. the only departures from AHRMA are mikuni carbs and open pipes, but i can put mufflers and concenrics on it to make it legal for AHRMA. the fairing comes on and off, and won't even be there at first. so roadracing is a long-term thing.

the trackbike format is an advantage for me because there are three or four race tracks local to me here in ohio that don't require me to drive hundreds of miles to race. i'm already doing 1100 miles one way to go to maine.


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Re: trackbike [Re: pushrod tom] #721434
01/07/18 11:15 pm
01/07/18 11:15 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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ohio, usa
Originally Posted by pushrod tom
K, The pazon will run for hours on just a battery so you can skip the alternator. PRT



an excellent point. i've had excellent results using the little shorai powerhouse batteries in both race machines and street bikes, and they're easy to keep charged. no lights or anything else, except maybe an AF sensor during tuning, but i don't need to keep that on for racing.


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Re: trackbike [Re: pushrod tom] #721467
01/08/18 11:39 am
01/08/18 11:39 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,485
Running from demons in WNY
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Originally Posted by pushrod tom
K, The pazon will run for hours on just a battery so you can skip the alternator. PRT


Yes, until they go dead for no reason... grin I've has bad luck luck with three different AGM batteries in the race bike....My two street bikes (not Brit bikes) and the double engine Triumph have Shorai lithium iron batteries. They are great as Kevin says, I do notice on lithium cordless tools the battery holds a charge longer but it goes from enough power to completely flat almost instantly...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721479
01/08/18 2:35 pm
01/08/18 2:35 pm
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 761
Edgewater, Md
B
Blown Income Offline

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Edgewater, Md
I've had plenty of AGM batteries go dead over the past few years, got to the point where I would remove the batteries from the bikes prior to trailering and leaving them in the truck. Even had some break internally while racing which I believe is from the extended high frequency vibrations racing a vertical twin over 7k rpms. I will say like Tom states that the Pazon will run for a long time w/o needing to charge the battery.


1955 BSA Bantam D1 Plunger
1956 BSA A10RR Street and LSR Bike
1961 BSA C15S
1966 BSA spitfire
1969 Triumph T100C
1970 Triumph TR6R
1972 BSA Lightning LSR Bike
1974 Triumph T150V
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721483
01/08/18 3:49 pm
01/08/18 3:49 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,765
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Im a big advocate of pazon, but for the cost of a Smart Fire against a CDI unit from the likes of Electrix World, I would personally look at the latter. You can still run a charging system if required and if you require the added inertia from the rotor you can increase the weight on the new rotor unit also. That or a magneto but the mag is more money (for the likes of a Joe Hunt at least)


beerchug
Re: trackbike [Re: Allan Gill] #721489
01/08/18 4:36 pm
01/08/18 4:36 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
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Running from demons in WNY
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Im a big advocate of pazon, but for the cost of a Smart Fire against a CDI unit from the likes of Electrix World, I would personally look at the latter. You can still run a charging system if required and if you require the added inertia from the rotor you can increase the weight on the new rotor unit also. That or a magneto but the mag is more money (for the likes of a Joe Hunt at least)

I believe a Morris Magneto might best mag available today.....Use say CDI....A pure CDI has a very short spark duration but many newer bikes have what they call a CDI type ignition..But inductive and CDI get tossed around so who know which one is which sometimes.... I use a Pazon Smartfire on the world's fastest Triumph grin But to be truthful I don't know if it's inductive or CDI ..


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721490
01/08/18 4:59 pm
01/08/18 4:59 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,765
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Electrex World

One of their kits to suit the BSA/Tri twin models, however this kit is more standard use I think, as they dont have an option listed under the race versions (ironicly they list a road, race and a trials version for the Bantam grin )

I know the trials lads love these becasue of the strength of spark and torque, but don't know how they compare to the likes of a Fairbanks or Morris Mag etc.

Last edited by Allan Gill; 01/08/18 4:59 pm.

beerchug
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721495
01/08/18 5:33 pm
01/08/18 5:33 pm
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Ignitions are one of those things that works or it doesn't...I bet if you took a moderately tuned vintage Brit bike engine, put it on a dyno ,there would be no noticeable difference in power between any proper functioning ignition system be it points , magneto or EI. Now if the engine is running nitro methane or nitrous oxide or supercharged, then there may be a difference...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721504
01/08/18 6:56 pm
01/08/18 6:56 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
i suspect that's true. a properly-functioning igntion ignites, no matter what kind it is, as long as it's running within its design parameters. i got rid of points on my old morgo because the daiichi sets that i tried suffered from point bounce at any rpm, unlike NOS Lucas. the Boyer i replaced them with has worked flawlessly for 30-plus years, in both a single and twin-plug configuration.

the old ARD magneto is just an agricultural unit, in the end, and isn't designed to turn at the speeds i run it at-- i saw 9200 on my tach at the lights, once-- and the rubber belt flexes, effectively retarding and advancing the spark as it goes in and out. this shows up under a strobe light as ghost images, just like the old daiichi points. so the actual timing isn't running at optimum 100 percent of the time. maybe a morris or joe hunt would be an improvement. the lytedrive pulleys are set up for joe hunt.

but the pazon actually has an advance curve:

[Linked Image]

i'm not convinced an advance curve matters during racing, as increased turbulence in the combustion chamber supposedly is enough to compensate for les time available to ignite the entire charge. but having a spark that retards enough to make push-starting possible is a big advantage. i already know that my mile bike won't push-start at 38 BTDC. morris makes a starting retard lever that fits in the cap, but it's expensive and just a bodge, really.


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Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721514
01/08/18 8:27 pm
01/08/18 8:27 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
i suspect that's true. a properly-functioning igntion ignites, no matter what kind it is, as long as it's running within its design parameters. i got rid of points on my old morgo because the daiichi sets that i tried suffered from point bounce at any rpm, unlike NOS Lucas. the Boyer i replaced them with has worked flawlessly for 30-plus years, in both a single and twin-plug configuration.

the old ARD magneto is just an agricultural unit, in the end, and isn't designed to turn at the speeds i run it at-- i saw 9200 on my tach at the lights, once-- and the rubber belt flexes, effectively retarding and advancing the spark as it goes in and out. this shows up under a strobe light as ghost images, just like the old daiichi points. so the actual timing isn't running at optimum 100 percent of the time. maybe a morris or joe hunt would be an improvement. the lytedrive pulleys are set up for joe hunt.

but the pazon actually has an advance curve:

[Linked Image]

i'm not convinced an advance curve matters during racing, as increased turbulence in the combustion chamber supposedly is enough to compensate for les time available to ignite the entire charge. but having a spark that retards enough to make push-starting possible is a big advantage. i already know that my mile bike won't push-start at 38 BTDC. morris makes a starting retard lever that fits in the cap, but it's expensive and just a bodge, really.


live every day.
die once.
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721528
01/09/18 12:05 am
01/09/18 12:05 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,765
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
I like the curve on the Pazon, you get the early advance where you want it and retards at top end, needless to say if you set the timing to top speed (possibly retarded) you still have good advance lower down in the revs. For lsr it’s off the line work then your staying at top end. Interestingly Pazon doesn’t use this curve profile for their other ignitions. Least that I know of.


beerchug
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721532
01/09/18 3:08 am
01/09/18 3:08 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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ohio, usa
pazon (andy?) will custom-tune an advance curve for you to bias for top end, if you tell him when you order it and pay extra for his time. the one i have is a standard smartfire.

trying to maximize horsepower out of these things is a fascinating task-- no engine map, no compensation for temperature or fuel quality or manifold air pressure or any of the other stuff modern tuners take for granted. not even a vacuum advance, which to my knowledge never appeared on any motorcycles until the yamaha XS11 in 1978.

that's one reason why LSR is interesting to me. it's vastly simpler than trying to tune a roadrace machine-- the focus is easily identifiable, and you don't have to compromise anywhere.

even having said that, though, my mile machine is surprisingly tractable, except for the extreme rider position. i would have thought the 35mm carbs and 296-degrees of cam duration would have made it awkward, but it's strong enough at low rpms to ride pretty well.

except for the reversion from the open pipes. but i'll bet just putting a muffler on them would tame that down.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 01/09/18 2:34 pm.

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Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721546
01/09/18 12:55 pm
01/09/18 12:55 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,485
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline
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Originally Posted by kevin roberts


trying to maximize horsepower out of these things is a fascinating task-- no engine map, no compensation for temperature or fuel quality or manifold air pressure or any of the other stuff modern tuners take for granted. not even a vacuum advance, which to my knowledge never appeared on any motorcycles until the yamaha XS11 in 1978.
.


Your Buell has a vacuum advance with the original CV carb..It's still there with the non CV Mikuni.........Older aircooled engines are not usually tuned or engineered in a way that makes a vacuum advance useful....On auto engines, during light load/high intake vacuum,the engine can benefit from very lean air fuel mixtures near 16 to 1 for best fuel mileage and auto carbs have vacuum controlled enriching jets.. This lean jetting is slow burning so it needs a lot of spark lead, often near 50 degrees total advance. Keep in mind, the vacuum advance curve is independent from the mechanical advance curve that is very similar to a Triumph...The XS1100 and Harleys may have used it for fuel mileage, or emissions, or both...When the operator opens the throttle the vacuum falls off and the engine goes back to mechanical timing...At high load low the vacuum advance is not a factor...Gas engine big trucks and boats don't usually have vacuum advance because they operate almost full time with a heavy loading.
Newer cars and probably many bikes with full electronic engine management controls need to run the A/F mixture close to 14.7 or so for least emissions so they don't lean out the mixture much during light load.....So the change is timing due to engine load may be more directed at preventing detonation with info from load and detonation sensors...Newer engines also have advanced fast burn cylinder heads needing less spark advance overall..
If a Triumph had load sensitive air/fuel mixture, a vacuum spark advance might serve a purpose if the engine can deal with light load leaner mixtures..But probably not...

I noticed the mechanical advance with stock electronic ignition on my 81 Honda 750 has a spark curve that is near 40 degrees at 6000 rpm and retards back to 36 degrees at 9000 rpm...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721554
01/09/18 3:43 pm
01/09/18 3:43 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
see, spark timing and combustion has always fascinated me.

what's really interesting to me is why timing curves are the way they are. leaving out the vacuum advance, which like you say is pretty irrelevant for what we do, the shapes of the curves make me curious.

if engine speed were the only consideration in timing, then the advance curve would be straight, right up to redline. but it isn't, it's a curve. people tell me that's because turbulence increases with rpm, requiring less and less spark lead, which makes sense.

but as allan pointed out, that's not the whole story, because the pazon (for example) retards at the highest rpms. unless that's a design flaw, something else is happening that magnifies the effects of rpm and turbulence. dunno what that is.

i can think of seven hundred characteristics of velocity, combustion chamber and piston top shape, cam shaft lift, acceleration, and duration, and so on and on, that would have some sort of an effect on the spark curve. and this is why engine mapping is so useful, if you have the resources to do it. you don't have to figure it out or even understand it, you just test and make a map of what works.

just put a finished motor on a dyno and start changing things around at different rpms, and record the horsepower changes. things like air temperature, manifold air pressure, spark timing, mixture. plot a whole bunch of curves together in n-space, and you get a theoretical multi-dimensional surface where your maximum horsepower occurs, where all the variables at once are optimized.

[Linked Image]

^^^this one measures max horsepower in just 3-space: different throttle openings, rpms, and spark advance. doesn't even include fuel mixture.. you can see the surface isn't smooth, like either the pazon or Boyer curves-- it's got dips and bumps where various peculiarities in the engine take over momentarily. maybe that ignition retard from 3000 to 3500 rpm and most throttle positions is to compensate for reversion, maybe it's a chemical problem with the fuel, maybe it's something to do with the camshaft . . .

it's worth remembering that even though we can't easily control a lot of these variables in these older designs, their effects are still there. there is an optimum mapping for anything, and we're trying to get close to it by static design and a few variable controls-- fuel mixture, timing, rider technique, even-- rather than just having a computer remember just what to do at three hundred different points in the curve.


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Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721564
01/09/18 5:18 pm
01/09/18 5:18 pm
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Posts: 3,485
Running from demons in WNY
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I never messed with the timing on my bike while it was on the dyno or at the track....It was set at 39 degrees for Ohio, and 37 degrees for Maine...Car drag racers often used fixed timing or if with some sort of advance, it's all in by 3000 rpm which is far less than any RPM seen on the track.......Since LSR on pavment is like a long drag race,maybe the same applies....


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721589
01/09/18 9:01 pm
01/09/18 9:01 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,765
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Kevin, I apologies if I have missed bits from your posting (been a long day)

I believe the retarding at higher revs is down to the faster you go, the more wind/tarmac resistance and the more torque required to achieve it.

The piece on timing for the A65 tells you to advance the ignition until you reach maximum speed then retard the timing until the speed starts to drop off, this giving maximum torque -I believe. As always happy to be corrected by a smarter person wink


beerchug
Re: trackbike [Re: kevin roberts] #721597
01/09/18 11:32 pm
01/09/18 11:32 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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ohio, usa
allan, i ran fixed timing at 38 BTDC at loring to get 128. i saw a bit of evidence of detonation, or maybe preignition. i was running plugs one number hotter tban i probably should have.

on my twin-plugged street bike, i did a lot of testing with a stop watch, and ended up witb tbe bike fastest at 30 BTDC. i didn't have any evidence of detonation on that motor until i advancex to about 42 BTDC, if i remember right. the horsepower on tbat machine isn't detonation lmited.

i'll read their lit, havent done that yet. too much to know, too little time.


Last edited by kevin roberts; 01/10/18 1:29 pm.

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Re: trackbike [Re: Hillbilly bike] #721599
01/09/18 11:49 pm
01/09/18 11:49 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,745
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

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ohio, usa
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
I never messed with the timing on my bike while it was on the dyno or at the track....It was set at 39 degrees for Ohio, and 37 degrees for Maine...Car drag racers often used fixed timing or if with some sort of advance, it's all in by 3000 rpm which is far less than any RPM seen on the track.......Since LSR on pavment is like a long drag race,maybe the same applies....


why'd you knock it back to 37 at maine? was that when you took off the 32mm amals?

ive got to get some dyno time on spark advance. if i can avoid melting my clutch pushrod i might learn something useful.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 01/09/18 11:53 pm.

live every day.
die once.
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