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Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Simon Ratcliff] #717698
12/04/17 6:02 pm
12/04/17 6:02 pm
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scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff

Crankcase and gearbox bearing housings will be machined during the same stage on a milling machine ensuring they are perpendicular to each other.


On a bike with a Triumph engine and a Norton box?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
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Re: Primary belt drive [Re: triton thrasher] #717701
12/04/17 6:16 pm
12/04/17 6:16 pm
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Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff
[


Crankcase and gearbox bearing housings will be machined during the same stage on a milling machine ensuring they are perpendicular to each other.


On a bile with a Triumph engine and a Norton box?


Perpendicular means at right angles to each other, I'm talking about the horizontal bearing housings and vertical gasket surfaces e.g crankcase. I've already explained a method to check the shafts for parallel.

The lights are on but no one's home.


Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Simon Ratcliff] #717705
12/04/17 6:36 pm
12/04/17 6:36 pm
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scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff


Perpendicular means at right angles to each other, I'm talking about the horizontal bearing housings and vertical gasket surfaces e.g crankcase. I've already explained a method to check the shafts for parallel.

The lights are on but no one's home.


Feel free to enlighten me and any other benighted souls.

So, when you say
Quote
Crankcase and gearbox bearing housings will be machined during the same stage on a milling machine ensuring they are perpendicular to each other.


Are you sure crankcase and non-unit gearbox from different factories were machined during the same stage on a milling machine?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: triton thrasher] #717711
12/04/17 7:34 pm
12/04/17 7:34 pm
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Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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I'll spell it out for you - when a crankcase half is machined the bearing housing and the 'gasket' mating surface will be machined without removing the casing from the machine bed thus the housing and the mating surface will be perpendicular to each other. Same for a gearbox shell. So it dosen't matter if the crankcase half was machined in Meriden and the gearbox in Birmingham or Woolwich or Wolverhampton.

And you're on this forum to give out advice?


Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Simon Ratcliff] #717715
12/04/17 8:06 pm
12/04/17 8:06 pm
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scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff
I'll spell it out for you - when a crankcase half is machined the bearing housing and the 'gasket' mating surface will be machined without removing the casing from the machine bed thus the housing and the mating surface will be perpendicular to each other. Same for a gearbox shell. So it dosen't matter if the crankcase half was machined in Meriden and the gearbox in Birmingham or Woolwich or Wolverhampton.


You should have said so. Or not- I can't it being much help to the guy.


Quote
And you're on this forum to give out advice?


Not entirely or exclusively, but I'll try to help when someone asks. I have the experience of building and riding a belt-driven Triton, without doing a single obsessive "zillionth of a millimetre" thing that you've "advised" in this thread.

You are advising people that they must do things, which in fact they do not have to do at all. That is bad advice. Have you deleted all your rubbish about piston rings yet?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: triton thrasher] #717719
12/04/17 8:41 pm
12/04/17 8:41 pm
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Posts: 114
Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
I have the experience of building and riding a belt-driven Triton, without doing a single obsessive "zillionth of a millimetre" thing that you've "advised" in this thread.


You've misquoted me and not understood. I made a reference to the granite surface tables accuracy of 'flatness' in reply to another poster who appeared not to understand what a surface table is. I haven't mentioned any tolerances, only a method of achieving parallel between the crank and gearbox shafts so that the OP will have a reliable belt drive.

You may have the experience of building and riding a bitsa but you don't seem to have learnt much.


Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Simon Ratcliff] #717721
12/04/17 8:53 pm
12/04/17 8:53 pm
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triton thrasher Offline
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Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff
I haven't mentioned any tolerances,


Oh yes you have!
Originally Posted by Simon
Mine is flat to within 1.6 millionths of a meter.




Quote
You may have the experience of building and riding a bitsa but you don't seem to have learnt much.


It's been on the road for more than 25 years and that has involved learning a lot. If "bitsa" carries an implication that you don't like Tritons, perhaps you should return to Mumsnet.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Maddoman] #717742
12/05/17 12:38 am
12/05/17 12:38 am
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ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
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you know, even if the alignment is perfect and the cases are rock steady, the steel crank and aluminum cases aren't likely to stay in line as they change temperature and expand differently. i imagine the steel crank-- and therefore the pulley-- will stay more or less in one spot as the aluminum cases get wider and narrower with temperature. the gearbox will expand and contract with respect to a completely different temperature gradient.

and if cranks flex as much as i've read here, then there won't be a perfect dynamic alignment maintained anytime the motor is stressed, anyway.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Maddoman] #717756
12/05/17 6:37 am
12/05/17 6:37 am
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triton thrasher Offline
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If your 1958 crankcase is a dynamo type, there is the option to fit a Lucas dynamo or Alton alternator onto the front of the engine.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: triton thrasher] #717760
12/05/17 8:11 am
12/05/17 8:11 am
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 114
Wolverhampton, U.K
S
Simon Ratcliff Offline
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher


It's been on the road for more than 25 years and that has involved learning a lot. If "bitsa" carries an implication that you don't like Tritons, perhaps you should return to Mumsnet.


I'm implying that your bike is made up of bits of this and bits of that, hence bitsa. It's a fairly common term.

As you state you built your belt driven triton I'm curious what method you used to determine the rear wheel was positioned in the same vertical plane as the frame centre line and parallel to it? How did you establish the frame centre line?

This is relevant as you're giving advice to the OP on how to fit a belt drive which requires both shafts to be parallel in the horizontal and vertical plane to prevent premature wear and failure.

Or does none of this matter because as has been pointed out, everything flexes in use. So why have accurately machined crankshafts, con-rods, gearbox main shafts, crankcases, front fork stanchions, wheels, fork yolks, etc etc etc?


Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Maddoman] #717768
12/05/17 11:44 am
12/05/17 11:44 am
Joined: Aug 2001
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argyll. scotland, uk
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Re, castings machined true or not, my good friend Grant tried to fit a belt drive to his T150, it failed because the gearbox shaft was out of parallel with the crankshaft, he reverted to chain drive. This is not unusual with triples. To put this right needs extensive welding and re machining. havent heard of this issue with unit twins.

Not many people have surface plates big enough to set frame and transmission . For most people straight edges are good enough. this also applies to industry, motor pump installations are generally aligned using straight edges, long winding strips can be very accurate, more than good enough for our needs.


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Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Maddoman] #717793
12/05/17 4:29 pm
12/05/17 4:29 pm
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 11
Hartlepool
M
Maddoman Offline OP
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Hartlepool
Thanks for all your input fellas it sure has opened up a good debate that keeps the old grey matter working.
Plenty of food for thought before jumping. Actually the Triton is my mates and it had the Norton box fitted when he bought it a few years ago. I just do the spadework for him as I'm marginally better on the computer than he is.
Keep scratching. Maddoman

Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Les P] #717796
12/05/17 4:52 pm
12/05/17 4:52 pm
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Posts: 11
Hartlepool
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Yeah I saw this Les and I know you can get some real good stickum these days. It looks quite simple and I would be very cost effective I imagine. What's the worst that could happen, the epoxy would come adrift and the seal and holder would spin on the shaft. I have witnessed something similar when I worked as a refinery maintenance fitter. Thanks for the reply my antipodean chum.

Re: Primary belt drive [Re: gavin eisler] #717846
12/05/17 9:28 pm
12/05/17 9:28 pm
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Posts: 114
Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler


Not many people have surface plates big enough to set frame and transmission . For most people straight edges are good enough. this also applies to industry, motor pump installations are generally aligned using straight edges, long winding strips can be very accurate, more than good enough for our needs.


Surface plates and straight edges are both limited by their surface areas. Straight edges can be OK for checking fitment of a new component when you have confidence in the accuracy of the assembly you're working on. When you need to check parallel between shafts on a pre-unit Brit bike for example, then a suitably sized surface table is required.

"....good enough for our needs", depends how many faults an owner is prepared to put up with and the kind of riding they do. Riders who don't go above 50mph, take it easy round corners and only cover a few hundred miles a year won't be too bothered about handling, reliability and smooth running where as a high mileage rider who enjoys using the engines power and getting the bike well over through corners will. This might explain why classics, in the UK at least, get very little use. If a bike is a joy to ride then typically it gets used. If you're not getting through two rear tyres a year you're doing something wrong.


Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Maddoman] #717858
12/05/17 10:50 pm
12/05/17 10:50 pm
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Les P Offline

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Originally Posted by Maddoman
Yeah I saw this Les and I know you can get some real good stickum these days. It looks quite simple and I would be very cost effective I imagine. What's the worst that could happen, the epoxy would come adrift and the seal and holder would spin on the shaft. I have witnessed something similar when I worked as a refinery maintenance fitter. Thanks for the reply my antipodean chum.



Maddoman, there is not a lot of room in that area mind you, in my case I would need to mount the front QPD pulley to see what space is available for a seal but have doubts if one could be placed in the engine case itself with the material to the base of bearing bore being around 1/8 " thick (iirc). (There are seals of that depth no doubt but would it stay in place)
My 57 does have a later one piece crankshaft but am not familiar with what was done when the pre unit did get a seal in that location.
If the crank case pressure was controlled perhaps a labyrinth could be used instead of a conventional oil seal.

I seem to remember one of the European motorcycles from the 1990's had frame castings with the alloy tubes held in place with some form of aviation based epoxy.
MZ maybe.


More bikes and projects than you can shake a stick at but they should be done in two shakes of a lamb's tail.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Simon Ratcliff] #717903
12/06/17 11:50 am
12/06/17 11:50 am
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Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff
Originally Posted by gavin eisler


Not many people have surface plates big enough to set frame and transmission . For most people straight edges are good enough. this also applies to industry, motor pump installations are generally aligned using straight edges, long winding strips can be very accurate, more than good enough for our needs.


Surface plates and straight edges are both limited by their surface areas. Straight edges can be OK for checking fitment of a new component when you have confidence in the accuracy of the assembly you're working on. When you need to check parallel between shafts on a pre-unit Brit bike for example, then a suitably sized surface table is required.

"....good enough for our needs", depends how many faults an owner is prepared to put up with and the kind of riding they do. Riders who don't go above 50mph, take it easy round corners and only cover a few hundred miles a year won't be too bothered about handling, reliability and smooth running where as a high mileage rider who enjoys using the engines power and getting the bike well over through corners will. This might explain why classics, in the UK at least, get very little use. If a bike is a joy to ride then typically it gets used. If you're not getting through two rear tyres a year you're doing something wrong.


I don't agree from actual experience, you are only limited by skill and imagination....A careful builder using levels ,squares and crude home made jigs can give the same accuracy used by the factory..I have built bikes from piles of unrelated parts that track perfectly, one of them the dual engine Triumph land speed racer that runs 150 MPH with a primary drive far more complex than any single engine custom.....
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


I ride junk
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Maddoman] #717932
12/06/17 4:36 pm
12/06/17 4:36 pm
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ohio
shel Online content
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I wonder how many Tritons and other special are running around that were built without the use of a surface plates and such.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: shel] #717938
12/06/17 5:31 pm
12/06/17 5:31 pm
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scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Originally Posted by shel
I wonder how many Tritons and other special are running around that were built without the use of a surface plates and such.


Some of them even have roller bearings in a Norton gearbox.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Maddoman] #717940
12/06/17 5:39 pm
12/06/17 5:39 pm
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Westminster, MD, USA
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J. Charles Smith Offline
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Westminster, MD, USA
Thousands?

Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Maddoman] #717945
12/06/17 6:47 pm
12/06/17 6:47 pm
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Andy Higham Offline
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As I stated earlier, Belt drives are a lot more forgiving than triplex chains.
An old trick on Trident/Rocket 3 road racers was to replace the triplex primary chain with two single row chains on the outside and inside rows of teeth. T160s reverted to a duplex chain


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Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Hillbilly bike] #717952
12/06/17 7:56 pm
12/06/17 7:56 pm
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Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike


I don't agree from actual experience, you are only limited by skill and imagination....A careful builder using levels ,squares and crude home made jigs can give the same accuracy used by the factory...


That's exactly my point. Factory accuracy was all over the place, no two bikes were the same leading to unreliability, oil leaks, varying performance and out of line rolling chassis's. It's why every Brit bike manufacturer went bust sooner or later when the Japanese started importing high quality products.

Your bike will probably go faster with more accurate alignment. The photo's show checking sprockets for horizontal alignment along a very small surface area in the vertical plane. You also need to check for vertical alignment in the vertical plane. To do this you need to work from a fixed datum e.g Engineers surface table, using set squares or tool makers blocks using one sprocket as a reference with which the other sprockets are compared to.

Last edited by Simon Ratcliff; 12/06/17 7:58 pm.

Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Simon Ratcliff] #717959
12/06/17 9:19 pm
12/06/17 9:19 pm
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Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike


I don't agree from actual experience, you are only limited by skill and imagination....A careful builder using levels ,squares and crude home made jigs can give the same accuracy used by the factory...


That's exactly my point. Factory accuracy was all over the place, no two bikes were the same leading to unreliability, oil leaks, varying performance and out of line rolling chassis's. It's why every Brit bike manufacturer went bust sooner or later when the Japanese started importing high quality products.

Your bike will probably go faster with more accurate alignment. The photo's show checking sprockets for horizontal alignment along a very small surface area in the vertical plane. You also need to check for vertical alignment in the vertical plane. To do this you need to work from a fixed datum e.g Engineers surface table, using set squares or tool makers blocks using one sprocket as a reference with which the other sprockets are compared to.

Actually the bike would go faster if a carburetor didn't have flooding problems... Have you ever built a complete bike ,fabricated the frame and many components?


I ride junk
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Hillbilly bike] #717964
12/06/17 9:52 pm
12/06/17 9:52 pm
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OZ
Triless Online content
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Well, while I can understand where Simon is coming from, when it comes to pragmatic, hard won experience,with results, my money is on Tony here !

Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Maddoman] #717984
12/07/17 12:34 am
12/07/17 12:34 am
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ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
fefsa
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tony, what was the story on the oil pressure?


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: Primary belt drive [Re: Hillbilly bike] #718004
12/07/17 7:53 am
12/07/17 7:53 am
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Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
.. Have you ever built a complete bike ,fabricated the frame and many components?


I've turned eccentric top hat bushes to correct misaligned brackets and converted an early Commando frame to Mk3 spec although left the steering head angle standard.

I've also corrected misalignment on over a dozen Commando frames to date and a featherbed frame.

Alterations were required to get the front and rear iso bracket axes and the swing-arm spindle axis perpendicular to the vertical plane and parallel to the horizontal plane.
Swing-arm axle slots required welding and filing to get rear wheel axle parallel to swing arm axis in the horizontal plane viewed from the rear.
Rear wheel required repositioning to get the wheel centre line in line to the frame centre line and parallel to the vertical plane. This usually required moving the entire drive train to left or right of centre line as the real wheel was up to ΒΌ" out of line from frame centre.
The surface table makes it relatively easy to work within +/- 0.005".

You can't do the above or work to this accuracy working from a motorcycle work bench.

P.s Should have said that none of the Commando frames had suffered from crash damage. All the misalignment was due to the manufacturing process - no two frames were the same yet they all suffered from alignment problems in the same areas.

Last edited by Simon Ratcliff; 12/07/17 6:08 pm.

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