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Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #717142
11/29/17 7:45 pm
11/29/17 7:45 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 853
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
Don't know if this helps, but Googling MJ1 bearing with C3 clearance shows that an RHP version is available in the UK, see This Link.

This bearing has no seals (presumably as per original?) and measures 25.40x63.50x19.05 (1x2-1/2x3/4).

I'm no machinist but I would imagine your approach of very accurate measuring, milling out any ovality, re sleeving and ensuring alignment between timing and drive side bearings is likely the best approach for future reliability.


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1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
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Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #717188
11/30/17 3:45 am
11/30/17 3:45 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,737
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by gunner
Don't know if this helps, but Googling MJ1 bearing with C3 clearance shows that an RHP version is available in the UK, see...
It helps a lot. Thanks very much. It also helped me send another ~$67 of my money to ease the Brexit debt to the EU. If the bearing I ordered earlier today turns out to be a C3 as well I will have wasted this money but, if not, I'll have a necessary backup option if the other one turns out to be too tight.

To prepare the case for the bearing I mounted it to the mill's table using the fixtures I made on Monday. However, prior to doing anything to the case I ground and honed a HSS bit and tested it on the ID of a scrap piece of 3" Al tubing to make sure it cut smoothly. I then moved the case under the spindle and trammed the mounting flange. I was pleasantly surprised to find it perpendicular to the spindle to 0.0005" across the 9" diameter so no shimming was needed. I then centered the hole by tramming near the outer edge, center, and inner edge of the hole with a 0.0001" indicator. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the hole was pretty cylindrical (to +/-~0.0002") around 2/3 of the circumference but distorted downward by ~0.0015" max. on the other 1/3. This is what would be expected if a rigid cylinder (the crank) had hammered downward on the bearing for a long time. By the way, working to a ten-thou. takes a lot of effort.

I then swapped the indicator for a boring bar and sneaked up on the final dia. a few ten-thou. at a time, so it's now ready for the bearings. The bearings, on the other hand, will need some plating before they're ready for the case.

Meanwhile, the bearings needed for holding the crank in the balancing wheels arrived. I reserve the right to change the figures when I have time to make a more careful measurement and a minor correction for the weight of the socket head screws pinning the main bearing nuts, but I don't expect much change. Anyway, using the weight of the original Australian/Canadian piston the balance factor when it left the factory was 58% (+/-~1%). The piston that was in the bike when I got it changed this to 61%.


Attached Files IMG_6241.JPGIMG_6240.JPG
Last edited by Magnetoman; 02/14/18 7:43 pm. Reason: added photos
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: robcurrie] #717256
11/30/17 6:32 pm
11/30/17 6:32 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,116
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
Originally Posted by robcurrie
60% ....my highest math score

Rob C


Well done Rob, on the BF contest , though MM himself quoted 58% for the early goldies.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
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The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #717262
11/30/17 7:17 pm
11/30/17 7:17 pm
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 348
Irene, South Africa
robcurrie Offline
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Irene, South Africa
Thanks Gavin, you must have a good memory - that was months ago.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #717467
12/02/17 4:37 pm
12/02/17 4:37 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 792
Overland Missouri
O
old mule Offline
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O

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Overland Missouri
Regarding Chaterlea's dowel suggestion, plenty of crankcases (and other machinery) use hollow dowels to locate things, with a through bolt to fasten them.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #717586
12/03/17 7:10 pm
12/03/17 7:10 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,737
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by old mule
plenty of crankcases (and other machinery) use hollow dowels to locate things,
Yes, that would be a more elegant solution than my flat plate, but it would take a fair amount of time to make jigs to align the cases to bore the holes for the dowels. The flat plate I made for the top accomplishes accurate alignment without me spending a lot of additional time.

The Alpha crankpin has cleared Customs at JFK and is now slowly making its way across the U.S. The bearing from the U.S. supplier arrived yesterday and the other one from the UK should be in transit, as should a Cu plating kit. My first thought was to assemble the electroplating chemicals myself, but not all chemical supply houses will sell to individuals, and others require filling out registration forms, so I decided to take the easy way out and just buy a kit. I'll post details of the Cu plating process after I'm happy with the results.

While I await the arrival of these items I'll turn to other things so there will be a temporary pause in the rebuild.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #717603
12/03/17 9:34 pm
12/03/17 9:34 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 680
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
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K

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 680
Isle of Wight, UK
A fascinating log! I look forward to hearing about the electroplating, I've heard it recommended many times, but never tried it. I'm sure that you will do it with your usual scientific approach! Good luck.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: KevinN] #717754
12/05/17 3:14 am
12/05/17 3:14 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,492
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted by KevinN

I would like to add one statistic to your list; there are four riders from the state of Nebraska. In fact, we all live within about a 20 mile radius!


Must be something in the water there, then?! laugh

MM - Been a few weeks since I checked in here. Made a 3+ hour plane ride much easier....looking forward to the route details being published. Be nice to get a few of us bb.com'ers from the mid-Atlantic area to cheer you on.

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: JubeePrince] #717773
12/05/17 12:39 pm
12/05/17 12:39 pm
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 95
England
G
George Kaplan Offline
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Posts: 95
England
Originally Posted by JubeePrince

Must be something in the water there, then?! laugh
Steve


What the hell do they put in the water in California then? There are 19 from California.

(also 10 from Texas)

John

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: George Kaplan] #717786
12/05/17 3:37 pm
12/05/17 3:37 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 19
Nebraska, USA
K
KevinN Offline
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K

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 19
Nebraska, USA
Originally Posted by George Kaplan
Originally Posted by JubeePrince

Must be something in the water there, then?! laugh
Steve


What the hell do they put in the water in California then? There are 19 from California.

(also 10 from Texas)

John


I was just showing some pride in my little state. I didn't mean to take anything away from anyone else. California has 20 times the population of Nebraska. Just the city of Los Angeles has more than twice as many people people as the entire state of Nebraska. To think that almost 4% of next years cannonballers live in a 20 mile circle that contains only a couple of thousand people seems noteworthy to me. It's not the water, it's that we grow up fixing stuff. You know, so we can grow your food.




Kevin


.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: KevinN] #717806
12/05/17 5:53 pm
12/05/17 5:53 pm
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 95
England
G
George Kaplan Offline
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G

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 95
England
Kevin, my apologies, I didn't appreciate the fact that Nebraska was punching so far above its weight when you took a states population into account.

John

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: KevinN] #717884
12/06/17 2:30 am
12/06/17 2:30 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,492
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted by KevinN
It's not the water, it's that we grow up fixing stuff.


Hi Kevin,

My tongue-in-cheek water comment aside, I can identify with the sentiment. Having grown up in the northern reaches of New England, we did the same. Yankee ingenuity! A way of life that seems to be slowly dying out, unfortunately.

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #717953
12/06/17 7:59 pm
12/06/17 7:59 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 19
Nebraska, USA
K
KevinN Offline
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KevinN  Offline
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K

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 19
Nebraska, USA
No need to apologize guys. Trust me, I'm not going to melt! I appreciate your interest in the event, and I'm enjoying the discussion and the build.




Kevin


.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: KevinN] #718301
12/10/17 9:00 am
12/10/17 9:00 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,737
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
While I await the arrival of these items I'll turn to other things so there will be a temporary pause in the rebuild.
Originally Posted by KevinN
I'm enjoying the discussion and the build.
Thanks to everyone who's been following along. I've been occupied with other things the past week but expect to be back to the build within the next couple of days.

Originally Posted by JubeePrince
Be nice to get a few of us bb.com'ers from the mid-Atlantic area to cheer you on.
You're more than welcome to organize something. But, it starts in Maine so wouldn't that count as the North-Atlantic? Perhaps you could organize NATO to cheer us on at the starting line...



Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #718306
12/10/17 9:54 am
12/10/17 9:54 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,010
Greensboro, NC
Alan_nc Offline
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Greensboro, NC
Do you know how far South you will go before heading West?


Alan
Cleared m out....left only
59 BSA Bantam (Trials)
78 Triumph Bonny (UPS)
02 Suzuki GS500
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #718308
12/10/17 10:29 am
12/10/17 10:29 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,737
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by Alan_nc
Do you know how far South you will go before heading West?
All we know for now are the locations of the start and finish and the 'day of rest' (Sturgis SD), plus the total mileage (which I don't remember, but a bit less than 4000). Google maps with those three fixed points, with the 'avoid highways' box ticked, and forcing the route to avoid hostile foreign territory (i.e. Canada), gives the shortest total route as 3285 miles. If I force the route to go through Cincinnati it increases to 3474 miles, which means there's certainly the possibility for the route to go pretty far south both before and after Sturgis.

Anything beyond the above speculation is just, um, speculation.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #718643
12/13/17 3:56 pm
12/13/17 3:56 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,737
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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I returned yesterday from a trip to find one of the two drive-side bearings I ordered had arrived (with CN and C3 clearances), along with the Cu plating kit and the crankpin. The latter gave me a bit of a worry when I unpacked it because it was labeled for 250 and 350 Ariels. However, checking Alpha's site shows that indeed the same crankpin is also listed for my 500 Black Ariel. Later in the day the postman delivered the C3 clearance bearing from England, and I already had the necessary bronze for making the various bushes, so I now have what I need -- or, what I presently know I need -- for completely rebuilding the bottom end of the engine.

Time in the air gave me the opportunity to do all the calculations needed to determine the original balance factor used by the factory. However, I want to double-check the measurements and calculations before posting them. First, though, I have to recover a bit from jet lag before pulling the slide rule out to check the figures. Also, electroplating is a precise process where knowing the current, valence, and material density allows determining and controlling the thickness by calculating the time required. Again, though, this is a calculation best done with a fog-free mind to avoid making mistakes of factors of 60 for min. vs. hrs. or whatever.

Meanwhile, while I was away the riders were sent a top-secret email giving the daily stops along the Cannonball route, but asked not to share the information. However, I don't think it's violating the organizer's request for secrecy to note the route will skirt the lower edge of the Great Lakes rather than have us ride over or under the water.

Attached Files IMG_6344.JPG
Last edited by Magnetoman; 02/14/18 7:40 pm. Reason: added photo
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #718673
12/13/17 10:36 pm
12/13/17 10:36 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 792
Overland Missouri
O
old mule Offline
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 792
Overland Missouri
Accurate Bearing in Addison IL has a very good reputation for finding and supplying obscure and "obsolete" bearings, I have used them for industrial machinery bearings cataloged in 1924. And good personal service too.
Also, did I somewhere read that later Ariel scramblers were often fitted by competitors with Triumph 2 valve oil pumps?

I like hearing your descriptions of machining and mensuration- best motorbike episode on the net, now, I say.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: old mule] #718708
12/14/17 1:58 am
12/14/17 1:58 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,737
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Posts: 4,737
U.S.
Originally Posted by old mule
I like hearing your descriptions of machining and mensuration..
Thanks for your nice words.

As a mensuration musing, for reasons I'll explain later (if I remember...) it appears the flywheels were balanced individually and then the complete crankshaft tweaked to the final balance factor after assembly. Or, quite possibly, the entire balancing operation was done on the individual flywheels and no further machining done on the crankshaft after it was assembled.

Roughly speaking, my flywheels consist of relatively thin (0.6") disks 5½" in diameter with thicker (1.2") rims extending from there to the 8" outer diameter. The castings actually are more complicated than this, but these dimensions will serve for present purposes.

The moment of inertia of a disk scales as the square of the radius so the outer rim contributes significantly more than the inner part. The 1.2"-thick outer rim of each flywheel weighs

~ π/4 x 1.2" x (8"2 - 5½"2) x 0.284 = ~9.0 lbs

where 0.284 is the density of iron in lbs./cu.in. (nb. the total crankshaft assembly weighs 24.0 lbs.)

On the outer surfaces of both rims, on the crankpin/shaft axis, are drilled two 5/16" balancing holes. Since these holes are roughly the same depth on both rims the following applies to each of them. In one rim the sum of the depths of these holes is ~0.27", so the weight removed from that rim by these two holes was ~ π/4 x 0.27" x (5/16"2) x 0.284 = ~0.021 lbs. (9.5 grams).

The above shows that to do the final balancing required removing just ~0.021/9 = 0.25% of the "effective" mass of each flywheel. However, rather than drilling those holes after assembly, each flywheel could have been separately balanced using an appropriate weight in the crankpin hole in order to result in the final desired balance factor for the total crankshaft assembly.


addendum:
Originally Posted by old mule
- best motorbike episode on the net, now, I say.
I meant to include the following yesterday. If you haven't already found it you should check out KevinN's Indian build on the AMCA Forum. I know, it's not British, but it's not like there's a fundamental difference in the technology. It starts with his acquisition of the bike four years ago, through to his no-points-lost run in the last Cannonball, and recently has started up again with his rebuild in preparation for the upcoming one. His design and fabrication of new timing components is fascinating.


Last edited by Magnetoman; 12/14/17 2:49 pm. Reason: addendum plus math correction
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #718801
12/14/17 11:07 pm
12/14/17 11:07 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,737
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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U.S.
I bolted the drive-side bearings to the bed of the mill using a washer as a spacer to hold the inner races off the bed, and used a 1-micron Mahr Supramess indicator to measure how far I could displace the outer races with the uncalibrated force of my hands (which was less than the 11 lbs. called for).

Used no-name ~5 microns (this is the bearing that was in the bike)
New RHP CN clearance ~10 microns (~0.0004")
New RHP C3 clearance ~20 microns (~0.0008")

Referring to the instructions by BSA and Triumph that bearings should drop out of cases when heated to 100 oC, the differential thermal expansion between steel and Al means the proper interference fit is ~0.002" at room temperature. Bearings should have essentially no clearance between the races and balls in operation. The fact that the clearance of C3 bearings closes up to the proper running clearance of ~0" when installed in Al cases with a 0.002" interference fit means the compression of the outer race by the Al closes up the clearance by ~0.001". As my measurements above show, the no-name bearing would be much too tight, the CN bearing would be somewhat too tight, but the Goldilocks C3 bearing should be perfect.



Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #718803
12/14/17 11:25 pm
12/14/17 11:25 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,492
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
You're more than welcome to organize something. But, it starts in Maine so wouldn't that count as the North-Atlantic? Perhaps you could organize NATO to cheer us on at the starting line...


Yeah, Maine is definitely 'down-east' (at least that's how we referred to it when I was a lad in VT). Unless the route is planning on hugging the US/Canadian border, perhaps a dip into PA or OH at the very least. That would be doable from the mid-Atlantic. Fingers crossed!

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: JubeePrince] #718871
12/15/17 5:09 pm
12/15/17 5:09 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,737
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by JubeePrince
Unless the route is planning on hugging the US/Canadian border,
Without giving anything away about the precise route, it only could hug the border if there were snorkels for the bikes and riders and I don't see them on the list of required or optional items...

Today's expensive development is the result of the Dec. issue of the Ariel club's newsletter arriving yesterday. In it is an ad for "high ratio" gearsets that the club commissioned for Q-type gearboxes. The ad claims the high ratio gearbox "makes for greater riding pleasure -- especially for the overhead valve models." Hmm, I like riding pleasure, and I have an ohv model...

Burman supplied their 3-speed Q gearboxes to Ariel for 4-5 years with "low standard," "high standard," and close-ratio "T.T.A." gearsets. Mine is a QL (i.e. low) with spread in ratios between bottom and top of 2.789. This is somewhat wider than the 2.580 spread of the (4-speed) BSA STD box, resulting in a large jump between 2nd and top.

The QH (high) gearbox has a smaller, 2.018, difference in gearing between bottom and top, falling halfway between the 1.754 of the (infamous) Gold Star RRT2 and the 2.343 of the SCT. The former is quite a problem around town because it requires a lot of clutch slipping to get moving when the overall gearing is set for the highway (albeit, set for a bit higher top speed than the Ariel), while the latter is quite nice around town as well as on the highway. So, I queried people on the Ariel club website to find if the QH's spread of ratios meant in practice it behaved more like the RRT2 or like the SCT.

The answers convinced me that the QH is a better choice for the Cannonball because of the big jump between 2nd and 3rd on the QL. This would be especially problematic in hilly or mountainous country. The QH will make the gearing tall in 1st, but it seems like it won't be so tall that it would be a problem. So, another £400 (plus shipping) of my money will be going toward helping ease the pain of Brexit.


Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #718876
12/15/17 5:30 pm
12/15/17 5:30 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,553
Scotland
kommando Offline
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Scotland
The Balance of payments problem looks to be solved by MM's Cannonball Run. Can you enter for 2019 as well, on a different bike of course, to make sure its solved for 2 years running.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #718896
12/15/17 7:35 pm
12/15/17 7:35 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 645
Ewing. NJ
E
edunham Offline
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E

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Posts: 645
Ewing. NJ
It sounds like it will be just thing for commuting when the Cannonball is over. You just need to figure out how to bolt a yellow milk crate to the back!

Ed from NJ

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: kommando] #718899
12/15/17 8:07 pm
12/15/17 8:07 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,737
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Posts: 4,737
U.S.
Originally Posted by kommando
The Balance of payments problem looks to be solved by MM's Cannonball Run. Can you enter for 2019 as well, on a different bike of course,
Greece has much more severe economic problems than the UK so I looked into restoring a classic Icarus. Unfortunately, it is well documented to have a fatal overheating problem, especially on sunny days.

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