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#717142 - 11/29/17 7:45 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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gunner Online content
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Don't know if this helps, but Googling MJ1 bearing with C3 clearance shows that an RHP version is available in the UK, see This Link.

This bearing has no seals (presumably as per original?) and measures 25.40x63.50x19.05 (1x2-1/2x3/4).

I'm no machinist but I would imagine your approach of very accurate measuring, milling out any ovality, re sleeving and ensuring alignment between timing and drive side bearings is likely the best approach for future reliability.


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#717188 - 11/30/17 3:45 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Magnetoman Online content
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Originally Posted by gunner
Don't know if this helps, but Googling MJ1 bearing with C3 clearance shows that an RHP version is available in the UK, see...
It helps a lot. Thanks very much. It also helped me send another ~$67 of my money to ease the Brexit debt to the EU. If the bearing I ordered earlier today turns out to be a C3 as well I will have wasted this money but, if not, I'll have a necessary backup option if the other one turns out to be too tight.

To prepare the case for the bearing I mounted it to the mill's table using the fixtures I made on Monday. However, prior to doing anything to the case I ground and honed a HSS bit and tested it on the ID of a scrap piece of 3" Al tubing to make sure it cut smoothly. I then moved the case under the spindle and trammed the mounting flange. I was pleasantly surprised to find it perpendicular to the spindle to 0.0005" across the 9" diameter so no shimming was needed. I then centered the hole by tramming near the outer edge, center, and inner edge of the hole with a 0.0001" indicator. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the hole was pretty cylindrical (to +/-~0.0002") around 2/3 of the circumference but distorted downward by ~0.0015" max. on the other 1/3. This is what would be expected if a rigid cylinder (the crank) had hammered downward on the bearing for a long time. By the way, working to a ten-thou. takes a lot of effort.

I then swapped the indicator for a boring bar and sneaked up on the final dia. a few ten-thou. at a time, so it's now ready for the bearings. The bearings, on the other hand, will need some plating before they're ready for the case.

Meanwhile, the bearings needed for holding the crank in the balancing wheels arrived. I reserve the right to change the figures when I have time to make a more careful measurement and a minor correction for the weight of the socket head screws pinning the main bearing nuts, but I don't expect much change. Anyway, using the weight of the original Australian/Canadian piston the balance factor when it left the factory was 58% (+/-~1%). The piston that was in the bike when I got it changed this to 61%.

#717256 - 11/30/17 6:32 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: robcurrie]  
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argyll. scotland, uk
Originally Posted by robcurrie
60% ....my highest math score

Rob C


Well done Rob, on the BF contest , though MM himself quoted 58% for the early goldies.


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#717262 - 11/30/17 7:17 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Thanks Gavin, you must have a good memory - that was months ago.

#717467 - 12/02/17 4:37 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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old mule Online content
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Regarding Chaterlea's dowel suggestion, plenty of crankcases (and other machinery) use hollow dowels to locate things, with a through bolt to fasten them.

#717586 - 12/03/17 7:10 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Magnetoman Online content
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Originally Posted by old mule
plenty of crankcases (and other machinery) use hollow dowels to locate things,
Yes, that would be a more elegant solution than my flat plate, but it would take a fair amount of time to make jigs to align the cases to bore the holes for the dowels. The flat plate I made for the top accomplishes accurate alignment without me spending a lot of additional time.

The Alpha crankpin has cleared Customs at JFK and is now slowly making its way across the U.S. The bearing from the U.S. supplier arrived yesterday and the other one from the UK should be in transit, as should a Cu plating kit. My first thought was to assemble the electroplating chemicals myself, but not all chemical supply houses will sell to individuals, and others require filling out registration forms, so I decided to take the easy way out and just buy a kit. I'll post details of the Cu plating process after I'm happy with the results.

While I await the arrival of these items I'll turn to other things so there will be a temporary pause in the rebuild.

#717603 - 12/03/17 9:34 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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koan58 Online content
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A fascinating log! I look forward to hearing about the electroplating, I've heard it recommended many times, but never tried it. I'm sure that you will do it with your usual scientific approach! Good luck.

#717754 - 12/05/17 3:14 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: KevinN]  
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JubeePrince Online content
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Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted by KevinN

I would like to add one statistic to your list; there are four riders from the state of Nebraska. In fact, we all live within about a 20 mile radius!


Must be something in the water there, then?! laugh

MM - Been a few weeks since I checked in here. Made a 3+ hour plane ride much easier....looking forward to the route details being published. Be nice to get a few of us bb.com'ers from the mid-Atlantic area to cheer you on.

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#717773 - 12/05/17 12:39 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: JubeePrince]  
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George Kaplan Offline
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Originally Posted by JubeePrince

Must be something in the water there, then?! laugh
Steve


What the hell do they put in the water in California then? There are 19 from California.

(also 10 from Texas)

John

#717786 - 12/05/17 3:37 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: George Kaplan]  
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KevinN Offline
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Nebraska, USA
Originally Posted by George Kaplan
Originally Posted by JubeePrince

Must be something in the water there, then?! laugh
Steve


What the hell do they put in the water in California then? There are 19 from California.

(also 10 from Texas)

John


I was just showing some pride in my little state. I didn't mean to take anything away from anyone else. California has 20 times the population of Nebraska. Just the city of Los Angeles has more than twice as many people people as the entire state of Nebraska. To think that almost 4% of next years cannonballers live in a 20 mile circle that contains only a couple of thousand people seems noteworthy to me. It's not the water, it's that we grow up fixing stuff. You know, so we can grow your food.




Kevin


.

#717806 - 12/05/17 5:53 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: KevinN]  
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George Kaplan Offline
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Kevin, my apologies, I didn't appreciate the fact that Nebraska was punching so far above its weight when you took a states population into account.

John

#717884 - 12/06/17 2:30 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: KevinN]  
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JubeePrince Online content
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Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted by KevinN
It's not the water, it's that we grow up fixing stuff.


Hi Kevin,

My tongue-in-cheek water comment aside, I can identify with the sentiment. Having grown up in the northern reaches of New England, we did the same. Yankee ingenuity! A way of life that seems to be slowly dying out, unfortunately.

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#717953 - 12/06/17 7:59 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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No need to apologize guys. Trust me, I'm not going to melt! I appreciate your interest in the event, and I'm enjoying the discussion and the build.




Kevin


.

#718301 - 12/10/17 9:00 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: KevinN]  
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Magnetoman Online content
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
While I await the arrival of these items I'll turn to other things so there will be a temporary pause in the rebuild.
Originally Posted by KevinN
I'm enjoying the discussion and the build.
Thanks to everyone who's been following along. I've been occupied with other things the past week but expect to be back to the build within the next couple of days.

Originally Posted by JubeePrince
Be nice to get a few of us bb.com'ers from the mid-Atlantic area to cheer you on.
You're more than welcome to organize something. But, it starts in Maine so wouldn't that count as the North-Atlantic? Perhaps you could organize NATO to cheer us on at the starting line...

#718306 - 12/10/17 9:54 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Alan_nc Online content
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Greensboro, NC
Do you know how far South you will go before heading West?


Alan
Cleared m out....left only
59 BSA Bantam (Trials)
78 Triumph Bonny (UPS)
02 Suzuki GS500
#718308 - 12/10/17 10:29 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Originally Posted by Alan_nc
Do you know how far South you will go before heading West?
All we know for now are the locations of the start and finish and the 'day of rest' (Sturgis SD), plus the total mileage (which I don't remember, but a bit less than 4000). Google maps with those three fixed points, with the 'avoid highways' box ticked, and forcing the route to avoid hostile foreign territory (i.e. Canada), gives the shortest total route as 3285 miles. If I force the route to go through Cincinnati it increases to 3474 miles, which means there's certainly the possibility for the route to go pretty far south both before and after Sturgis.

Anything beyond the above speculation is just, um, speculation.

#718643 - Yesterday at 03:56 PM Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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I returned yesterday from a trip to find one of the two drive-side bearings I ordered had arrived (with CN and C3 clearances), along with the Cu plating kit and the crankpin. The latter gave me a bit of a worry when I unpacked it because it was labeled for 250 and 350 Ariels. However, checking Alpha's site shows that indeed the same crankpin is also listed for my 500 Black Ariel. Later in the day the postman delivered the C3 clearance bearing from England, and I already had the necessary bronze for making the various bushes, so I now have what I need -- or, what I presently know I need -- for completely rebuilding the bottom end of the engine.

Time in the air gave me the opportunity to do all the calculations needed to determine the original balance factor used by the factory. However, I want to double-check the measurements and calculations before posting them. First, though, I have to recover a bit from jet lag before pulling the slide rule out to check the figures. Also, electroplating is a precise process where knowing the current, valence, and material density allows determining and controlling the thickness by calculating the time required. Again, though, this is a calculation best done with a fog-free mind to avoid making mistakes of factors of 60 for min. vs. hrs. or whatever.

Meanwhile, while I was away the riders were sent a top-secret email giving the daily stops along the Cannonball route, but asked not to share the information. However, I don't think it's violating the organizer's request for secrecy to note the route will skirt the lower edge of the Great Lakes rather than have us ride over or under the water.

#718673 - Yesterday at 10:36 PM Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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old mule Online content
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Accurate Bearing in Addison IL has a very good reputation for finding and supplying obscure and "obsolete" bearings, I have used them for industrial machinery bearings cataloged in 1924. And good personal service too.
Also, did I somewhere read that later Ariel scramblers were often fitted by competitors with Triumph 2 valve oil pumps?

I like hearing your descriptions of machining and mensuration- best motorbike episode on the net, now, I say.

#718708 - 14 hours ago Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: old mule]  
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Magnetoman Online content
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Originally Posted by old mule
I like hearing your descriptions of machining and mensuration..
Thanks for your nice words.

As a mensuration musing, for reasons I'll explain later (if I remember...) it appears the flywheels were balanced individually and then the complete crankshaft tweaked to the final balance factor after assembly. Or, quite possibly, the entire balancing operation was done on the individual flywheels and no further machining done on the crankshaft after it was assembled.

Roughly speaking, my flywheels consist of relatively thin (0.6") disks 5½" in diameter with thicker (1.2") rims extending from there to the 8" outer diameter. The castings actually are more complicated than this, but these dimensions will serve for present purposes.

The moment of inertia of a disk scales as the square of the radius so the outer rim contributes significantly more than the inner part. The 1.2"-thick outer rim of each flywheel weighs

~ π/4 x 1.2" x (8"2 - 5½"2) x 0.284 = ~9.0 lbs

where 0.284 is the density of iron in lbs./cu.in. (nb. the total crankshaft assembly weighs 24.0 lbs.)

On the outer surfaces of both rims, on the crankpin/shaft axis, are drilled two 5/16" balancing holes. Since these holes are roughly the same depth on both rims the following applies to each of them. In one rim the sum of the depths of these holes is ~0.27", so the weight removed from that rim by these two holes was ~ π/4 x 0.27" x (5/16"2) x 0.284 = ~0.021 lbs. (9.5 grams).

The above shows that to do the final balancing required removing just ~0.021/9 = 0.25% of the "effective" mass of each flywheel. However, rather than drilling those holes after assembly, each flywheel could have been separately balanced using an appropriate weight in the crankpin hole in order to result in the final desired balance factor for the total crankshaft assembly.


addendum:
Originally Posted by old mule
- best motorbike episode on the net, now, I say.
I meant to include the following yesterday. If you haven't already found it you should check out KevinN's Indian build on the AMCA Forum. I know, it's not British, but it's not like there's a fundamental difference in the technology. It starts with his acquisition of the bike four years ago, through to his no-points-lost run in the last Cannonball, and recently has started up again with his rebuild in preparation for the upcoming one. His design and fabrication of new timing components is fascinating.


Last edited by Magnetoman; 1 hour ago. Reason: addendum plus math correction
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