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Lucas K2FC reversed leads? #715750
11/19/17 12:19 pm
11/19/17 12:19 pm
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 51
Gothenburg, Sverige
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TrophyTR6 Offline OP
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Gothenburg, Sverige
I just got my -59 TR6 started after a complete rebuild of the engine. It started after just 2-3 kicks and the engine sounds very good. It also runs good on idle with a steady beat. I haven't driven the bike yet since the clutch isn't completely set up but I have started it a couple of times and it starts and runs just as good every time. Now to my question, the other night I browsed the Triumph workshop manual and saw a picture of the magneto and to which spark plug the leads go to. And the picture shows the opposite how my leads go. If I'm reading the picture right the left terminal (viewing from the points side) is supposed to go to the right cylinder and the right terminal to the left cylinder. Being quite confused since the bike started so easily and seem to run quite good I couldt understand how they could be reversed. But today I switched them over and tried to start it, but there was nothing. Just a bang or two otherwise completely dead. Am I reading the illustration completely wrong or could my timing be so wrongly set up that the bike runs better with reversed leads? I did the timing quite meticulously with a clock in the right spark plug hole and a timing disk to set it at 38 - 39 degrees.

A few pictures from setting the ignition and a video (only for audio it was shot at night)

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/zd4ON61NEsE[/video]


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Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #715753
11/19/17 12:55 pm
11/19/17 12:55 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,427
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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scotland
You have timed the magneto and engine, to fire the left-hand plug through the front HT pick up.

Of course it won't run if you then swap the leads, so each plug sparks at the top of the exhaust stroke!

Put the leads back to the way they were when you had it running.

The recommendation in your book is just for the convenience of Triumph service mechanics. It does not make the bike run better. I think I've seen the opposite recommendation in other books. You could "fix" it by setting your timing all over again, after loosening the auto-advance off the shaft and turning the magneto 180 degrees. Why bother!


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: triton thrasher] #715756
11/19/17 1:32 pm
11/19/17 1:32 pm
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 51
Gothenburg, Sverige
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TrophyTR6 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
You have timed the magneto and engine, to fire the left-hand plug through the front HT pick up.

Of course it won't run if you then swap the leads, so each plug sparks at the top of the exhaust stroke!

Put the leads back to the way they were when you had it running.

The recommendation in your book is just for the convenience of Triumph service mechanics. It does not make the bike run better. I think I've seen the opposite recommendation in other books. You could "fix" it by setting your timing all over again, after loosening the auto-advance off the shaft and turning the magneto 180 degrees. Why bother!



But I measured on the right hand cylinder and the points were in the in the exact same position as the picture in the Triumph manual. I followed the instructions in this youtube clip (the points are in the same position as in the Triumph manual) https://youtu.be/GPTLK_H0bvQ

Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #715757
11/19/17 1:35 pm
11/19/17 1:35 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,427
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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Did you check that the cylinder was at TDC on the compression stroke, not the exhaust stroke?

Not that it matters. There is no doubt that you timed it the way it is timed.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: triton thrasher] #715780
11/19/17 4:37 pm
11/19/17 4:37 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,432
U.S.
Magnetoman Offline

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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Did you check that the cylinder was at TDC on the compression stroke, not the exhaust stroke?
+1

This can happen to the best of us. I rebuilt the magneto for my Catalina Gold Star (a single, but the identical issue arises), installed it, and carefully timed it to within a fraction of a degree on what I was sure was the compression stroke. The bike showed signs of life but wouldn't run. I then checked and found I had perfectly timed the magneto 180.0 degrees off. Thanks to unburned fuel it still managed to generate a few bangs, but it certainly won't run that way. It turns out our damned motorcycle engines are unreasonably fussy about whether they get a spark on the compression or on the exhaust stroke.

In the case of a vertical twin, it doesn't matter which lead goes to which cylinder as long as you time a given lead to fire on the compression stroke. If you do that, both cylinders will fire on their compression strokes. But, if you then simply switch the leads the magneto will perfectly spark both cylinders on their exhaust strokes, which may result in a few bangs depending on how much unburned fuel is still hanging around.

Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #715782
11/19/17 4:41 pm
11/19/17 4:41 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,427
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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If Mr TrophyTR6 really wants to worry, he should now check and compare the timing on both cylinders.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: triton thrasher] #715784
11/19/17 4:53 pm
11/19/17 4:53 pm
Joined: May 2017
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Gothenburg, Sverige
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TrophyTR6 Offline OP
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Gothenburg, Sverige
To be honest I don’t know if I had it on the compression stroke. You have probably figured out what I did wrong. Good to know it doesn’t matter. Thanks a lot guys!! I guess I need to use a strobe to check both cylinders? I think I will send my magneto for a check/rebuild this winter anyway and then I can check timing on both cylinders.

Cheers/ Chris

Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #715795
11/19/17 5:26 pm
11/19/17 5:26 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,427
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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scotland
If your magneto starts the bike consistently, hot and cold, it’s about as good as a newly renovated one.

Rebuilders don’t always bother getting timing exactly the same on both sides.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #715811
11/19/17 6:45 pm
11/19/17 6:45 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,848
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content

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I never bothered to select one side or the other. Just time it, then if it doesn't start, just swap the leads. Nothing wrong with the way you did it. The mag and motor doesn't care which lead fires which plug as they are(supposed to be)180 degrees apart.

Don't mess with success.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #715832
11/19/17 8:51 pm
11/19/17 8:51 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 606
Isle of Wight, UK
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koan58 Offline
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It is arbitrary (apart from ooh rigiginality), the only difference depends on how fussy you are on HT cable routing. I prefer your accident, because the HT leads can be more similar lengths, lovely! As TT said, much more important to know that the other cylinder, using the other cam segment, is also timed well.

Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #715892
11/20/17 12:09 pm
11/20/17 12:09 pm
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 51
Gothenburg, Sverige
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Great guys!! Thanks for clarifying this. Still very new to these bikes and with the engine just rebuilt Im still a bit nervous about it running ok.

Thanks! / Chris

Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #715979
11/20/17 11:57 pm
11/20/17 11:57 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,794
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Offline

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If it runs pretty well STOP starting it up until you are ready to go for a ride. You may be doing harm to the rings breaking in. If the cylinders glaze over while it's idling you're looking at a rehone and rings. Helmet on. Coat on.. Fire it up and go for a ride. Google ring break in. There is a proper way to do it and it's not idling or babying it. My rings seated this last time by the time I hit the end of my street. Proper hone. Proper ring gap and install, thank you F&G and proper assembly procedure, thank you John Healy. All wrenching done in Desco's unheated and poorly lit garge.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #716045
11/21/17 12:41 pm
11/21/17 12:41 pm
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 51
Gothenburg, Sverige
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TrophyTR6 Offline OP
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Gothenburg, Sverige
desco, Now you made me nervous again! I have been reading about proper break in prior starting the bike up but I must say I didn't understand that even a few "start ups" could mess up ring break in. I read Mr. Healy's ring break in post on this forum and did a semi dry installation of the rings. OK I will not start it up any more before I can ride it properly. You said that after your last engine rebuild your rings seated at the end of your street, how does one know for such certainty it happened?

Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #716053
11/21/17 2:36 pm
11/21/17 2:36 pm
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Bishop, Calif.
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desco Offline

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No smoke at any time. Bike ran great and pulled like train. Only did about 30 or so miles, speedo does not work. Did not do a compression check when I got home, I was too cold to think. Supposed to warm up today and the rest of the week, Mid 70's. All the passes are closed due to snow. Will try to get on some up hill mountain roads. Hope there are no chain controls in effect.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #716079
11/21/17 6:36 pm
11/21/17 6:36 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,848
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content

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I got chewed out by my good friend who was also an ace mechanic for starting my restorations on the stand before they were ready for prime time.
He "urged" me to go professional and wait until the bike was ready to wheel out into the sun, with my helmet, gloves and boots on ready for a ride.

After thinking about it for a while, doing things this way makes you think just a bit harder about each step of the process so that you get every detail correct.

After a while, I was able to set my bikes up so carefully, they would start right away and just sit there and idle perfectly. Then, with confidence, I would drop it in gear and ride off.
I've always ridden my bikes just like I always do in normal driving, just being extra attentive to things like pinging, hot smells, correct power, oil return, etc.

I owe my mechanic friend a huge thanks for steering me in this direction. So far, I've only had one bike that gave me fits breaking in and that was down to poor communication with my machinist about what I required.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #716109
11/21/17 10:00 pm
11/21/17 10:00 pm
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 51
Gothenburg, Sverige
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TrophyTR6 Offline OP
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I hear you! Thanks for the feedback Hawaiian Tiger, it definitely make sense and I will keep this in mind. The bike is 99% ready right now so I'm just waiting for a day with above zero degrees celsius

Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #716187
11/22/17 11:35 am
11/22/17 11:35 am
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,662
East Bethany New York
Dick Harris Offline
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East Bethany New York
just a question, how did you get the bike started without the clutch installed??? Dick

Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: Dick Harris] #716235
11/22/17 5:43 pm
11/22/17 5:43 pm
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Gothenburg, Sverige
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Originally Posted by Dick Harris
just a question, how did you get the bike started without the clutch installed??? Dick


No its installed but I had the wrong pressure plate installed (for a T100 I think) and it hit the primary outer cover when you tried to engaged the clutch. But everything else was installed smile

Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #716256
11/22/17 8:02 pm
11/22/17 8:02 pm
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Posts: 5,848
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content

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For the sake of clarity and honesty, my technique has worked extremely well over the years with one blaring exception.

When I finished my '62 Thunderbird, I rolled the bike out of the garage, set up a video camera so I could record the glorious first sounds of this bike which was resurrected from a pile of scrap.
Well, I kicked and kicked and there wasn't a sign of life to be had.....

It had spark, fuel and compression, but it wouldn't even fart....

Looking into it further, I found the timing so far out it completely baffled me. I am usually so meticulous is setting up the timing, but this was about 90 degrees off. I still don't know how it happened.....

Well, the lesson is to not get cocky and I don't video first fire anymore.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #716297
11/23/17 4:01 am
11/23/17 4:01 am
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Posts: 3,924
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content
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you can still do the video, just overwrite the awkward bits before you show anybody.


live every day.
die once.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #716397
11/23/17 11:20 pm
11/23/17 11:20 pm
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Posts: 2,794
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Offline

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Just an update on breaking in. Just took a short ride up to about 9,000' Would have gone farther but the road was closed due to snow. 5,000' elevation gain in 9 miles. Great road to test things.
Compression; L 143, R 148. There is MAYBE 50 miles on the motor. I've never had this much compression on a Triumph ever.
Farther or further? Anybody know?


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #716398
11/23/17 11:29 pm
11/23/17 11:29 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,848
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content

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Farther for distance, further for everything else, like furthermore, ie. extending an explanation, things like that.
Way up where you live, that is good enough compression. Check it at sea level. It could be as high as 180...
Cheers,
Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 11/23/17 11:31 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Lucas K2FC reversed leads? [Re: TrophyTR6] #717249
11/30/17 6:17 pm
11/30/17 6:17 pm
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 51
Gothenburg, Sverige
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TrophyTR6 Offline OP
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Gothenburg, Sverige
Thanks for all feedback! I have now driven the bike even tough it was a short ride, maybe 2 kilometers. I understand this isn't sufficient but I cant se any smoke any longer. Now I will have to wait until spring until I can ride again. I tested the compression with engine cold and its 130 PSI on both cylinders, even tough the left one seemed to get there faster. Is this sufficient for a completely rebuilt engine with 9,1 comp pistons? I guess this figure will be better when its warm and even better when its been driven for a while.


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