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BSA guy looking for Norton #716116
11/21/17 10:46 pm
11/21/17 10:46 pm
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Hangtown, CA>
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barncobob Offline OP
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love my 68 BSA Thunderbolt, looking for 70-75 Norton, dont know much but there are 750 &850s,,is any year better than others, ...things to look for? have about $9K american tops..lots of them out there but its confusing..thanx in advance

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Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716132
11/21/17 11:59 pm
11/21/17 11:59 pm
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Posts: 1,967
Oztralia
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Rohan Online content
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Good question ! How long is a piece of string....
Probably depends on what you are going to do with it ?,
and what your taste in bikes is.

If its a Sunday afternoon thrash through the hills, the early 750's (70-73) are going to be more your thing, if its touring/week long rides to far distant places, the 850's (73-75) are maybe going to be better.
(but, they are not really that different anyway).

Probably better to just find a good one near you, and go with that.
Or select it on paint color and condition.
As to how you determine what is good or not, that is not so easy.
Budget a few $k to fix all the things the PO didn't get around to ?
And be prepared for a new learning curve of all the Nortons foibles...
hopethishelpsabit.

Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716137
11/22/17 12:12 am
11/22/17 12:12 am
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 859
Australia.
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Les P Offline

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Australia.
As far as Roadsters there were not that many deviations.
If I had to make that choice it would be easy, 750cc wise the 1971 Fastback was the last Commando close to the initial concept (750 / drum brakes) The engine cases from 1968 to 1971 might be regarded as the most fragile.

A last year (1973 ? ) 750 might be a nice bike also.

The 850cc starting 1973 to 1974 is probably a good bet for a solid bike given the various upgrades and still R/H shift.

The 1975 Mk3 850 got the electric starter and went to L/H shift.

There are plenty of things to look out for but you would need to narrow the model search down first, a ride on either (750/850) if possible might be in order.
If I had to choose one Commando it would be a 1974 850 (Roadster) with RH10 cylinder head.

Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: Les P] #716158
11/22/17 2:12 am
11/22/17 2:12 am
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 19
Hangtown, CA>
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barncobob Offline OP
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thinking the 74 850 is what i need, puttzin around the foothills, would like to keep RH shift, thanx for the input, keep it coming..

Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716178
11/22/17 6:48 am
11/22/17 6:48 am
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 859
Australia.
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Les P Offline

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Australia.
Commando's are number stamped on the engine case, left hand side below the cylinder/jug/barrel join line , the frame will have a riveted on plate front of the head stock (It will have the build date - Month and year and VIN number) also on top of the gearbox case.
If you are spending good money you want the numbers to all match, folk will tell you it does not matter but I bet it would if they were buying or selling one themselves.

They might have been all steel by 1974 ? but some had fiberglass fuel tanks so a metal tank is going to avoid any fuel drama's.

The top of the cylinder head will most likely have a stamp, the better (850) head is stamped RH10, the RH4 has been known to crack.

The threads in the head for the exhaust nuts can wear if they have been allowed to run loose.

Check the frame lower rails for contact from the header pipes.

The lower steering head ball bearing unit can wear into the metal of the frame so it can loosen its fit, worse case you will detect movement if the forks are moved inline with the bike.

They normally have short dust seals on the forks, extend them to see if there is chrome wear on the tube in that area hidden.

Some have a balance pipe between the two headers which can crack at the stub on the header pipe.

The gearbox case can crack between the output bearing and layshaft bearing bore but that would be hard to check, you would hope any 850 has had the layshaft bearing changed, the stock item was known to fail. (If not the kick start lever can start doing weird things with the engine running)

You might want to grab the swing arm and see how much movement there is side to side as far as the isolastics and swing arm pivot shaft.
Coming off a BSA you might be alarmed. (haha)

The mufflers can crack at the inlet stub transition to the muffler body.

The 850 frame is stronger but check the rear loop is not bent down past the upper shock mounts.

The 850 engine cases were beefed up but still look for any damage including underneath.

Look for oil leaks at the head gasket.

Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716179
11/22/17 6:55 am
11/22/17 6:55 am
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 859
Australia.
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Les P Offline

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Australia.
The Commando is well supported so parts are no problem.

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop/

There are also some very talented people should you need machine work.

http://www.nortonmachineshop.com/


[Linked Image]

Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716197
11/22/17 1:08 pm
11/22/17 1:08 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,397
New Zealand
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johnm Offline
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Originally Posted by barncobob
thinking the 74 850 is what i need, puttzin around the foothills, would like to keep RH shift, thanx for the input, keep it coming..



Many consider the 1974 Commando 850 to be the best alround Commando.

I may be biased having owned mine for 39 years.

Last edited by johnm; 11/22/17 1:09 pm.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716264
11/22/17 8:59 pm
11/22/17 8:59 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 114
Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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In addition to some of the problems mentioned by LesP.

Number one is chassis misalignment. This was built in by the factory and causes unpredictable steering and affects handling. Cure is complete strip and proper alignment. Google Worlds Straightest Commando.

Number two are clutch plates oil contamination. Cure is change plates for Barnett plates.

Number three front disc brake. Change master cylinder for one with suitable piston diameter for calliper fitted.

There's a few more problems but they are all solvable and when sorted a Commando is an absolutely fantastic bike to ride fast through twisty country roads.


Last edited by Simon Ratcliff; 11/22/17 9:02 pm.

Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716380
11/23/17 7:22 pm
11/23/17 7:22 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 114
Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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In addition to my previous post:

Swinging arm spindle support is inadequate except on the Mk3.

Alternator stator and rotor are not always Concentric.

Standard and replacement guides are worn out from new - fit Kibblewhite valves and guides which must be reamed and honed to suit after fitting.

Pre Mk3 engines can be prone to chronic wet sumping.

Footrests way too far forward but this applies to just about all Brit bikes pre Hinckley Triumphs.

Mk3 electric start in standard form is a waste of space.

Mk3's have the strongest engines. In addition to the through bolt barrels the crankshaft is stronger as are the crankcases.

One other thing re the engine/gearbox cradle; the swinging arm tube is not always parallel to the rear isolastic tube therefore adding to the already mentioned alignment problems.

Last edited by Simon Ratcliff; 11/23/17 7:38 pm.

Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: Simon Ratcliff] #716386
11/23/17 8:53 pm
11/23/17 8:53 pm
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 859
Australia.
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Les P Offline

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Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff
In addition to some of the problems mentioned by LesP.


What I posted were not problems but things to check when looking to purchase a Norton Commando as the thread starter is considering.

#
I could not find that webpage/site that has the box grid with all the years (1974 etc) in it that you click on for the Commando factory sales brochures.

Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716417
11/24/17 7:17 am
11/24/17 7:17 am
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 114
Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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Wolverhampton, U.K
Well the large dia steel exhaust head nuts come loose due to the differential in expansion between the steel nut and aluminium head, the tab washers don't work. Fitting bronze head nuts solves the problem.

The swinging arm spindle support tube welded to the engine/gearbox cradle does not work and allows clearance to develop between the tube and spindle on the drive side end. Mk3's have a cotter pin arrangement which works. Earlier models benefit from split shaft bearing collars being fitted.

There's usually too much clearance between header pipes and frame rails and I have'nt seen any problems with loose steering head bearings on the bikes I've worked on.

Fork gaiters are available and were standard on some models.

There's no structural difference between the 750 and 850 frames apart from the very first Commando's steering head bracing tube and was quickly modified.

P.S As long as there is oil in the swing-arm spindle reservoir then you can expect 30,000 miles minimum out of the bushes and spindle.

And I agree with the gearbox problems you mention. Layshaft bearing is the wrong spec. M Hemmings sells an appropriate upgrade but it's not advised to fit a roller bearing as you then have to deal with layshaft end float.

Last edited by Simon Ratcliff; 11/24/17 7:45 am.

Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716441
11/24/17 1:45 pm
11/24/17 1:45 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 314
Concord Township, Ohio
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All bikes have their own quirks & areas that could be improved. Having owned a lot of Nortons & 3 commandos, my 1974 MK2A 850 commando was my favorite "all round". I personally dislike the e-start commandos looks, but it does have a lot of advances that earlier models dont have. My dad has a '72 750 Combat, after rebuilding with the correct upgrades, incredibly quick street fighter, always starts 1-2 kicks, never left him stranded. To be fair, it was in an accident before he bought it & we replaced the frame with the better 850 frame.

You really cant go wrong with any Commando, they all have their weak points, which are all fixable. It is also easy to change it from a Roadster, to an Interstate, to an "S", or an "SS", or a Hi-Rider, or a John Player Special replica, or a Fastback, or a full blown Cafe Racer.

You have never been able to buy as many parts for a Norton Commando as you can right now. You can even buy brand new frame parts, or a whole new frame, tons of upgrades available & many parts suppliers. Both Norvil & Andover Norton have every part for any Commando, and there are many Norton parts suppliers in the USA including myself, and over a dozen others. Norvil will even build you a brand new Norton of your choosing with whatever options you want, and engines up to 1000cc!!!

For the money you are willing to spend, you should be getting a nicely done,turn key bike, with all, or most of the upgrades already done. Ask for receipts, and ask who did the mechanical work.

You will love it!


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1950 Norton Model 7:
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716459
11/24/17 4:38 pm
11/24/17 4:38 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,218
melbourne florida
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bodine031 Online content
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melbourne florida
I would get with the Norton clubs. Members have or know about bikes 4-sale also shops like Baxter, Steadfast, Rabers that have been around again know of or have bikes 4-sale. I would find a non-project bike. buy one you can ride home. When AHRMA raced in March @ Daytona there always was Norton's there with Sudco Mikuni carb kits, solid/state reg-rectifiers, and electronic ign.'s I have always favored a 1974 Black with gold and a Corbin solo saddle!!! good luck and do your homework

Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: 57nortonmodel77] #716488
11/24/17 6:50 pm
11/24/17 6:50 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 114
Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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The quality of Norvil parts and their after sales service leave a lot of room for improvement. A case of buyer beware from my experience.


Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: Simon Ratcliff] #716525
11/24/17 11:58 pm
11/24/17 11:58 pm
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Orlando fla/ shady valley Tn
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this is a load of bollocks. it is the replacement bearing most reputable builders in the us use and the current one offered by andover.just because MH sells a ball it is not the end all bearing. yes you have the simple task of shimming the kickstart shaft but IMHO it should be done with ant gearbox rebuild.

Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff


it's not advised to fit a roller bearing as you then have to deal with layshaft end float.


windy
72 combat
switchbackcreek.com
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716529
11/25/17 12:34 am
11/25/17 12:34 am
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 859
Australia.
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Les P Offline

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Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716546
11/25/17 7:14 am
11/25/17 7:14 am
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 114
Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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Advantage of the 6203TB deep groove ball bearing over the NJ203E single lipped roller bearing is that the ball bearing provides axial as well as radial location of the layshaft. The lipped roller only provides radially location and allows axial movement.

The video shows shimming of the kick-start shaft, not the layshaft.

If the factory had fitted the correct grade of bearing in the first place there would have been no problem with premature bearing failure. An indication the bearing needing changing is the kick-start rotating anticlockwise when the engine is under load e.g accelerating.

Last edited by Simon Ratcliff; 11/25/17 7:27 am.

Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: bill50cal] #716566
11/25/17 3:05 pm
11/25/17 3:05 pm
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 20
Birmingham UK
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Originally Posted by bill50cal
this is a load of bollocks. it is the replacement bearing most reputable builders in the us use and the current one offered by andover.just because MH sells a ball it is not the end all bearing. yes you have the simple task of shimming the kickstart shaft but IMHO it should be done with ant gearbox rebuild.

Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff


it's not advised to fit a roller bearing as you then have to deal with layshaft end float.



Why do some people find it necessary to be offensive and make ad hominem remarks in their posts?


Ian.

1952 Norton ES2
1962 Ariel Arrow
1982 Moto Guzzi V50
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: iansoady] #716576
11/25/17 4:28 pm
11/25/17 4:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,026
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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Originally Posted by iansoady
Originally Posted by bill50cal
this is a load of bollocks. it is the replacement bearing most reputable builders in the us use and the current one offered by andover.just because MH sells a ball it is not the end all bearing. yes you have the simple task of shimming the kickstart shaft but IMHO it should be done with ant gearbox rebuild.

Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff


it's not advised to fit a roller bearing as you then have to deal with layshaft end float.



Why do some people find it necessary to be offensive and make ad hominem remarks in their posts?



Calling the advice bollocks isn’t, strictly speaking, ad hominem. Your rhetoric is ad hominem. So's this!


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: iansoady] #716586
11/25/17 6:10 pm
11/25/17 6:10 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 114
Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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Wolverhampton, U.K
Frustration caused by inability to construct an argument based on engineering fundamentals? I've recently come across similar posts.


Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: barncobob] #716587
11/25/17 6:18 pm
11/25/17 6:18 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,026
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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I wouldn't say the possible need to mess about with layshaft end float rules roller bearings out.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: Simon Ratcliff] #716588
11/25/17 6:20 pm
11/25/17 6:20 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,026
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff
Frustration caused by inability to construct an argument based on engineering fundamentals? I've recently come across similar posts.


Don't go around feeling frustrated, Simon. I'm sure you learned some useful stuff about rings.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: triton thrasher] #716591
11/25/17 6:41 pm
11/25/17 6:41 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 114
Wolverhampton, U.K
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Simon Ratcliff Offline
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Wolverhampton, U.K
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff
Frustration caused by inability to construct an argument based on engineering fundamentals? I've recently come across similar posts.


Don't go around feeling frustrated, Simon. I'm sure you learned some useful stuff about rings.


I did, but not from you.


Norton Mk3 Commando.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: Simon Ratcliff] #716610
11/25/17 8:18 pm
11/25/17 8:18 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,026
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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scotland
Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff
Frustration caused by inability to construct an argument based on engineering fundamentals? I've recently come across similar posts.


Don't go around feeling frustrated, Simon. I'm sure you learned some useful stuff about rings.


I did, but not from you.


Can only hope I pointed you in the right direction.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: BSA guy looking for Norton [Re: Simon Ratcliff] #716631
11/25/17 11:06 pm
11/25/17 11:06 pm
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Posts: 698
Orlando fla/ shady valley Tn
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bill50cal Online content
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the deep groove ball will not positively stop the layshaft from moving axiialy depending on the fit to the layshaft or main case

Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff
Advantage of the 6203TB deep groove ball bearing over the NJ203E single lipped roller bearing is that the ball bearing provides axial as well as radial location of the layshaft. The lipped roller only provides radially location and allows axial movement.
.


there are only 2 ways to set the end play of the layshaft, either shim it behind the bearing or the kickstart shaft as the layshaft is also using the the kickstart shaft as the bearing housing on the timing side it is the easer way to set the end float.

Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff


The video shows shimming of the kick-start shaft, not the layshaft.

.


what the factory fitted than and what is used today is better just like the the ring technology of old v new.

Originally Posted by Simon Ratcliff


If the factory had fitted the correct grade of bearing in the first place there would have been no problem with premature bearing failure. An indication the bearing needing changing is the kick-start rotating anticlockwise when the engine is under load e.g accelerating.



Last edited by bill50cal; 11/25/17 11:11 pm.

windy
72 combat
switchbackcreek.com
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