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Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #714899
11/13/17 8:30 pm
11/13/17 8:30 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
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You want clarity on this.
"The black wire is already connected to ground "through" the coils. So I guess that means but I am not sure, that as long as I make sure the black wire when disconnected from the coil does not touch ground I am ok. Even then it does not seem the black wire is activated unless the pickup is by engine turning over. I am just searching for clarity on this issue. I am also looking to see that I can take the white power from the back of the connector with an alligator, to the first ve- on the coil."

Correct , if the Sparx unit is like the Boyer , it will de power the coils after a few seconds from ignition switch on if it does not sense rotation, as soon as the engine is kicked over it should come back to life.

Are you happy that the fuse holder , kill switch and ignition switch are all good, no weird readings?


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #714901
11/13/17 8:49 pm
11/13/17 8:49 pm
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Naarfuk, UK
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This thread is slowing the whole internet down!


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #714906
11/13/17 9:21 pm
11/13/17 9:21 pm
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Bob,
A sticking clutch doesn't make it hard to kickstart, just makes it hard to get into gear when its running.

I still think it would be a good idea to slacken off all the clutch adjusters to put the clutch back to "ground zero". Then see if it makes a difference or not.

Clutch slip is not always obvious, until it becomes OBVIOUS!

Yes, as I illustrated previously, 1 full kick = roughly 2 spins of the crank. I think the rotating momentum of the crank carries it through at least the same again.

Whatever, there is no doubt that these engines usually start on the 1st or 2nd firing stroke. I have no knowledge of "priming strokes".

Most starts of my bike have been immediate, though on odd occasion I have thought my kick failed, then it has fired, presumably on that momentum cycle.

So I would say that with one depression of the kickstart, you get 2 crank spins, 1 compression, but another closely follows with the "carry on" of the crank.

If, as usual, you take it to just over compression, the engine is then in a good place for an immediate induction, followed with another one turn later.

This has been good enough for road bikes since year dot.

Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: Tigernuts] #714916
11/13/17 10:38 pm
11/13/17 10:38 pm
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Koan, thanks, but the clutch is NOT slipping. The gears are not crunching either. The clutch was adjusted correctly with the adjusters loosened, etc. It is a fairly new clutch, but it sat with clean oil but still it sat. I am not going to take the clutch apart and clean it. OK? All I am saying is I have to clear it, and then clear it again for the next kick. I neglected to hold the clutch in when in neutral rev it, and then slip the clutch a bit this season. I did it the last time I rode and it got better it may be fine now. I don't think I am getting anything from inertia. There may be too much in the sump for whatever reason. But I don't see any evidence of wet sumping. But I did get more than usual when I drained the sump. It seemed. I did not measure it. I wan't going to touch the sump oil this season. Only 400 miles on it and not much time. In fact I was considering not changing the oil this season at all, except the primary. Will change it in the spring. But I probably will change it. It depends. I usually perseverate and then go for the hardest and most cautious route. There is so much oil in the thing you can't get it all out anyway and the old contaminates the new. That is why I can't see changing filter and oil and not draining the sump. But I suppose it is a matter of proportion. I know it should be drained in the spring because of possible condensation, but from a heated space?

But those are two very good thoughts. And if I keep this up before storage, I might try them. I did have the clutch center come loose before and that was a real pain to figure out. Put a whole new clutch in first. I really think I would feel a slipping clutch. No indication it is slipping at all. If I had to guess between the two, I would say too much oil in the sump. But I would have no idea why that is happening.

Right now I got to finish this electric test.



Originally Posted by Tigernuts
This thread is slowing the whole internet down!
I don't need comments from the peanut gallery. Pls go to the next tent down in this circus. You are just adding to the mayhem.

Last edited by btour; 11/13/17 11:30 pm.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #714923
11/13/17 11:10 pm
11/13/17 11:10 pm
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Right now I had to quit. I was working in anger. Why? That damn white wire is not long enough to come up enough past the coil box, and I can't figure out why. I should have taken the coil box off to do this, but I didn't and I am stubborn that it can be done without doing that. Because it should been run so it could have. I am gently tugging at it and prying with a screwdriver and still it keeps slipping beneath the waves. Someone could help by telling how it is spliced in the harness. When I move the end I am working at the white on the key switch moves but I don't know how much I have to play with.

All this effort is so I can disconnect it from the box feed white (which it now and may be forever so) :), and then test the voltage at the points listed in John's diagram, listed above. I ASKED if I could just take it from the box harness and no one answered, so I am following the diagram exactly. I am betting there is no drop. But we will see. If I haven't buggered something up.



Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #714931
11/13/17 11:37 pm
11/13/17 11:37 pm
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Isle of Wight, UK
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koan58 Offline
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I've run out of ideas Bob, so listen to others. Dave

Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: gavin eisler] #714935
11/13/17 11:43 pm
11/13/17 11:43 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
You want clarity on this.
"The black wire is already connected to ground "through" the coils. So I guess that means but I am not sure, that as long as I make sure the black wire when disconnected from the coil does not touch ground I am ok. Even then it does not seem the black wire is activated unless the pickup is by engine turning over. I am just searching for clarity on this issue. I am also looking to see that I can take the white power from the back of the connector with an alligator, to the first ve- on the coil."

Correct , if the Sparx unit is like the Boyer , it will de power the coils after a few seconds from ignition switch on if it does not sense rotation, as soon as the engine is kicked over it should come back to life.

Are you happy that the fuse holder , kill switch and ignition switch are all good, no weird readings?


bout time you got here:). You did not answer my question completely and I am frustrated. There are two ways to go about this.

1) I disconnect the white wire from box harness. This means no white power to the box. And then disconnect the black from the coil and connect the disconnected white to coil -ve

2) I jack into the white at the harness with clip and then do the same. But this means that the box is still seeing power. And what I am wondering is, will that damage the box, if I did not disconnect the black wire first from the coil. If it could have done that way by jacking into it, it sure would have saved a lot of grief.

They are two separate things. In 1 the box sees no power. In 2 it still sees power.

And I only hope that when I did the first voltage check I disconnected the plug before I ran the test of the white wire to ground, because I don't remember if I pulled the black wire from the coil. And the box, will now be toast.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: Dibnah] #714937
11/13/17 11:47 pm
11/13/17 11:47 pm
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Originally Posted by Dibnah
Originally Posted by koan58
Of course done many times, indeed sparks easily produced by hand cranking. I was merely putting it into reality context.

When I first built my triton (1979) it still had a magneto. Got it assembled to the stage where it was almost ready to go, but I was being maybe overcautiously paranoid, rechecking everything before going for it.
Having already done everything several times, checking the mag timing yet again, turning the crank nut with the primary cover off, the bloody thing fired up, and with no short lead just had to suffocate it.

So I'm not anti-mag, but nowadays they're not the only way to skin a cat. I never regretted going to EI, initially ~1981 Rita, latterly Boyer, but I have always avoided dynamos. If I had one, I too would stay magneto.


Big fat crackling blue spark, a bit of fuel and away you go!


As I remember it, The small spark is the stronger spark.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: koan58] #714938
11/13/17 11:49 pm
11/13/17 11:49 pm
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Originally Posted by koan58
I've run out of ideas Bob, so listen to others. Dave


That is OK Dave. They were two very good ideas. But I can only do one thing at a time. And right now I am cranky from using a flashlight in a cold garage and trying to figure out where those wires run. They are all wrapped, and I did not remove the coil box.

Last edited by btour; 11/13/17 11:53 pm.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #714941
11/13/17 11:57 pm
11/13/17 11:57 pm
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Isle of Wight, UK
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Keep at it Bob, if I have anything to contribute, I will! Dave

Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #714942
11/14/17 12:01 am
11/14/17 12:01 am
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Gavin I have tested the fuse holder again and again. I wiggled and jiggled and jumped up and down, and turned the key switch off and one again and again and again. Sometimes I would get a strange result on the switch, like some resistance, like 2.4 between white and b/b tangs, with the switch in the off position but when I revered the probes it was normal. No idea why. None. Except that the probes were not making good contact. I cleaned up the white wire tang. All voltage tests reveal no voltage drop. Same reading as the battery. I forget what it was. 13.23 I think.

So I guess I am satisfied. I don't like the idea of getting that resistance reading sometimes when there should have been none. But no wiggling or jiggling make it go away. Just reversing the probes.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #714954
11/14/17 1:09 am
11/14/17 1:09 am
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Too cold out there. I could add heat, but if the bike is cold best to leave it so at constant temp. I am too tired to pay proper attention, anyway. I did find the perfect microwave wire to patch to coil though. I do recommend them.

Think I will watch the show on Scotland and sheep dogs, while I wait on Gavin. Time for beer and meatloaf. I am toast.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #714959
11/14/17 1:31 am
11/14/17 1:31 am
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Farmington,Connecticut,USA
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btour,
sent a message over regarding computers / technology / etc- after reading your profile info- check the e-mail & advise- tks -Brien


1978 Bonneville T140V PX
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #714973
11/14/17 3:11 am
11/14/17 3:11 am
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Bishop, Calif.
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One of the best improvements to the electrical system is to get rid of the glass fuse and replace it with one of these blade type 20A mini fuses;
http://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuses/automotive-aftermarket-products/indicator-fuses.aspx
A red light in the fuse comes on when it blows. You can miss it. The fuse does not roll off the battery and disappear somewhere. They are cheap and available everywhere.
#2 The single point ground. Run all the red wires to a single bolt, including a new red wire from engine, rocker box is OK. I drilled a hole in my battery hanger. Then hook up the new fuse holder to that bolt and then the battery. Tada. You have just brought your electrical system into the 21st century.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: desco] #714975
11/14/17 3:22 am
11/14/17 3:22 am
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Originally Posted by desco
One of the best improvements to the electrical system is to get rid of the glass fuse and replace it with one of these blade type 20A mini fuses;
http://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuses/automotive-aftermarket-products/indicator-fuses.aspx
A red light in the fuse comes on when it blows. You can miss it. The fuse does not roll off the battery and disappear somewhere. They are cheap and available everywhere.
#2 The single point ground. Run all the red wires to a single bolt, including a new red wire from engine, rocker box is OK. I drilled a hole in my battery hanger. Then hook up the new fuse holder to that bolt and then the battery. Tada. You have just brought your electrical system into the 21st century.


That is great desco. I have had a mini fuse holder for a decade, and have an SPG. Ditched the old glass fuses a long time ago because the spares break in the kit. Although they did have the advantage of being able to mickey mouse them in the field. All was readily viewable. Still have a new holder in my box.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #715008
11/14/17 11:32 am
11/14/17 11:32 am
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Posts: 4,250
argyll. scotland, uk
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") I disconnect the white wire from box harness. This means no white power to the box. And then disconnect the black from the coil and connect the disconnected white to coil -ve

2) I jack into the white at the harness with clip and then do the same. But this means that the box is still seeing power. And what I am wondering is, will that damage the box, if I did not disconnect the black wire first from the coil. If it could have done that way by jacking into it, it sure would have saved a lot of grief."

Method 1 is best its what JH shows in his test .

The variable reading on the ignition switch is weird, that would be a fail for me, if it does not go properly off sometimes that could mean other things are going wrong in there, if your bike had points it could drain the battery while at rest. The switch off after a few secs that the EI box has should prevent this.
Asking again, Does your ignition switch have a key fob which blows around in the wind? this does not help the ignition switch.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/14/17 11:37 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: gavin eisler] #715037
11/14/17 3:10 pm
11/14/17 3:10 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
")
Asking again, Does your ignition switch have a key fob which blows around in the wind? this does not help the ignition switch.


Yes it does, light leather and also the gas cap key. Lightweight.

The only unusual reading on the key switch is between b/b terminal and white terminal when the key is in off position, I get 2~ resistance, and then only sometimes and then even then it shows no resistance if the probes are reversed. And this is only with battery connected. Do you copy?

I can assume this is the "auto" feature of the Fluke. It throws me in diode testing mode.

What are you thinking? That I turn ign off and bike goes off, and then walk away (with keys out) and it turns itself back on? That would indeed be strange because the box would be in shut down mode ie on but wont spark, and then I turn the bike back on and it remains in shut down mode, and does not sense the first kick? Would it then sense the second one, or would second one have to be immediate. Need to know more about shutdown mode and reawake mode.

One thing I notice about switch is tumbler is loose fit but I think they always are and that should not effect the workings. I might try to tighten the thing. I forgot what tool I used to do that. It is the circle with the small slot in it that acts as the tightening nut.

Last edited by btour; 11/14/17 3:12 pm.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: gavin eisler] #715039
11/14/17 3:14 pm
11/14/17 3:14 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
") I disconnect the white wire from box harness. This means no white power to the box. And then disconnect the black from the coil and connect the disconnected white to coil -ve

2) I jack into the white at the harness with clip and then do the same. But this means that the box is still seeing power. And what I am wondering is, will that damage the box, if I did not disconnect the black wire first from the coil. If it could have done that way by jacking into it, it sure would have saved a lot of grief."

Method 1 is best its what JH shows in his test .


You did not answer the question: Will method 2 toast the box?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #715048
11/14/17 3:47 pm
11/14/17 3:47 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
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not sure, i dont think so , will have to Read the JF article again. Someone else might know. AFAIK connecting one of the pick up leads to batt live will cook the box, but not jumpering around it. I am sure JH discos the box for the test because that rules out a variable and proves the feed to the coils is sound.


Resistance readings in OFF should be infinity, if it only does it one way round? and you are happy with the on / off readings connected the other way round, maybe thats OK. Is the symbol after the two the same symbol as infinity on the meter?

i gave up on key fobs after replacing my 2nd ignition switch.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #715053
11/14/17 4:01 pm
11/14/17 4:01 pm
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At the end of play what have we learned.

You have a blade type fuse holder.
The wiring is difficult to access, especially the white feed to the Sparx igniter.
Your meter likes one way round when testing Ohms.

You might have a solid supply from the battery to the EI box, but it appears you havent parted the EI white from the white yellow supply because its hard to get at,
I cant tell if this test was completed successfully or not. ie with ignition switch on DN Zero between fuse holder or better still blue brown to batt and white yellow which comes from the kill switch
You must prove the whole chain from Brown /blue to Igniter box supply.
Until you can part the EI white from the kill switch feed White yellow this can not be completed.
To re iterate .

Ignition supply chain.

Batt.
Brow blue
Fuse holder
Brown Blue
Ignition switch
White wire from Ign up spine to junction block
Junction to white wire to Bar switch.
Bar kill switch to connector under tank,white yellow
White yellow to Sparx white wire.
probes across Brown blue batt terminal ( disco battery to be safe) to white yellow tail where it joins the white for the Sparx proves the whole chain. If this combined reading gives a poor result , not DNZero then its time to split the chain and look further.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: gavin eisler] #715055
11/14/17 4:05 pm
11/14/17 4:05 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
not sure, i dont think so , will have to Read the JF article again. Someone else might know. AFAIK connecting one of the pick up leads to batt live will cook the box, but not jumpering around it. I am sure JH discos the box for the test because that rules out a variable and proves the feed to the coils is sound.


Resistance readings in OFF should be infinity, if it only does it one way round? and you are happy with the on / off readings connected the other way round, maybe thats OK. Is the symbol after the two the same symbol as infinity on the meter?

i gave up on key fobs after replacing my 2nd ignition switch.


I could give up on the fob, although it does help me locate my keys in my pocket. The Triumph metal fell off anyway, but on the other hand it is original. Anyway I could give up on that. But the gas cap key is essential to have attached so that it always there when I need it, and not available to gremlins.

Not sure what you mean. The number I get is preceded by a minus sign. I think that means probes sensing power on one side. It would be a big help if John would chime in here. I know he is really busy and this thread has gotten very long.

Soon as it warms up I will finish the drop down test. It is going to be ticklish because I don't have much wire to hold onto. It is a nightmare. I just hope I did not pull on that connector too hard. I was working in anger.

No answer yet on the white wire splitting and how much play there is to work with.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: gavin eisler] #715061
11/14/17 4:31 pm
11/14/17 4:31 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
At the end of play what have we learned.


I cant tell if this test was completed successfully or not. ie with ignition switch on DN Zero between fuse holder or better still blue brown to batt and white yellow which comes from the kill switch


I have no idea what you are saying. Clarify please. Are you talking about a resistance test?

And I have parted the w/y to white supply to the box. The problem is the female spade termination for the w/y is barely grabbable. That is what I am fretting about. It seems to be in a harness physically shackled to white to ignition switch. When I pull on it the white moves, too. I can't see what is going on, no matter which way I look through. This whole thing is a pain. You keep worrying about the kill switch. If that were intermittent the bike would stall sometimes. That is not happening. Anyway I am doing my best to follow what you asked me to test, and am afraid I am going to need a new harness after this exercise.

The last part to do is what?

1) I could with fuse out check for resistance from battery -ve to the female spade of w/y, is that correct.

2) And then do the voltage drop as described by John, proving what I don't know except the ground, since voltage drop can be done without involving the coil. That is since I am directly attaching the w/y to the coil ve- (first in line, no idea why he numbered it 2 instead of coil 1), via a jumper wire, I will of course get the same volts as measuring the the female spade w/y directly. I don't see the point of this but ok, then the only other test is to measure volts at the last coil in the line at the + post where it also connect to ground, ( no idea why he did not number it coil 2 since it is second in line but I guess there is a reason) proving the ground is OK if I get zero.

Seems like an awful lot of work to prove the ground, since taking the volts at the spark connector itself at white would do the same thing. And that I have already done hoping I did it with the connector disconnected. That proves also the wire going to the connector (w) from the w/y. The only thing left on proved with that is the ground, and the white from the connector which goes to box. That remains untested either way round.

This has been a long walk, through a dark wood. My only consolation is that it is useful to reacquaint myself with my wiring in braille.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #715063
11/14/17 4:58 pm
11/14/17 4:58 pm
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,803
Pacific northwest
Q
quinten Offline
BritBike Forum member
quinten  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Q

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,803
Pacific northwest
the original harness has two white wires,
one wire to feed each coil in the original Kettering ignition system.
the aftermarket electronic ignition only needs one of these wires,
the other white wire, now redundant, is capped off.

Quote
Even then it does not seem the black wire is activated unless the pickup is by engine turning over. I am just searching for clarity on this issue. I am also looking to see that I can take the white power from the back of the connector with an alligator, to the first ve- on the coil."

is this what you're talking about
this [Linked Image]
.........
is the same as this [Linked Image]


you want to add power to the coils, through the extra white wire, without removing the white wire that powers the Box.
and then disable the Box by disconnecting the black wire.
I would say what you propose is an equivalent circuit to the second picture. .. and safe to do.
but it is not testing the power supply actually used.
it's testing the power supply of the theoretically equivalent spare wire. ..
.

Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: quinten] #715075
11/14/17 6:08 pm
11/14/17 6:08 pm
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,099
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
B
btour Online content OP
BritBike Forum member
btour  Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
B

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,099
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Originally Posted by quinten
the original harness has two white wires,
one wire to feed each coil in the original Kettering ignition system.
the aftermarket electronic ignition only needs one of these wires,
the other white wire, now redundant, is capped off.

Quote
Even then it does not seem the black wire is activated unless the pickup is by engine turning over. I am just searching for clarity on this issue. I am also looking to see that I can take the white power from the back of the connector with an alligator, to the first ve- on the coil."

is this what you're talking about
this [Linked Image]
.........
is the same as this [Linked Image]


you want to add power to the coils, through the extra white wire, without removing the white wire that powers the Box.
and then disable the Box by disconnecting the black wire.
I would say what you propose is an equivalent circuit to the second picture. .. and safe to do.
but it is not testing the power supply actually used.
it's testing the power supply of the theoretically equivalent spare wire. ..
.


Thanks quinten,

That explains a lot, like why there is no amount of wire to play with. It is because it is attached to the other (capped off) white wire. I saw that while fishing and decided to leave it alone. What I am preparing to do is exactly the second picture. I am leaving the capped off wire alone. So I won;t be testing that capped wire, but the power supply to the connector then to the box. And at point D the ground. Is that correct?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #715080
11/14/17 6:17 pm
11/14/17 6:17 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 543
UK
D
Dibnah Offline
BritBike Forum member
Dibnah  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 543
UK
Originally Posted by btour
Originally Posted by Dibnah
Originally Posted by koan58
Of course done many times, indeed sparks easily produced by hand cranking. I was merely putting it into reality context.

When I first built my triton (1979) it still had a magneto. Got it assembled to the stage where it was almost ready to go, but I was being maybe overcautiously paranoid, rechecking everything before going for it.
Having already done everything several times, checking the mag timing yet again, turning the crank nut with the primary cover off, the bloody thing fired up, and with no short lead just had to suffocate it.

So I'm not anti-mag, but nowadays they're not the only way to skin a cat. I never regretted going to EI, initially ~1981 Rita, latterly Boyer, but I have always avoided dynamos. If I had one, I too would stay magneto.


Big fat crackling blue spark, a bit of fuel and away you go!


As I remember it, The small spark is the stronger spark.


Is this humour / humor?

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