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T160 compression #714863
11/13/17 12:06 pm
11/13/17 12:06 pm
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Posts: 77
Palmerston North, New Zealand,
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wheller151 Offline OP
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Any one know what the compression should be on a T160.
I tested my compression today and I only get 90, 85 and 87 but the bike still runs sweet as a nut but it seems a bit low.
My Bonney T140v hits around the 145 and 147 so thats about the correct mark so Im thinking the gauge must therfore be reading ok.

Cheers


T140v 1977 Export American Spec.
T160 Trident
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Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #714920
11/13/17 11:02 pm
11/13/17 11:02 pm
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Posts: 1,199
Magnolia, TX
htown Online content
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Need some more info. Was engine hot or cold. Has the bike been sitting for a while and this is first fire up after the layup? I think I would take it for a good ride give it some stick and recheck. After that I would check the valve adjustment.

Last edited by htown; 11/13/17 11:04 pm.

1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: T160 compression [Re: htown] #714993
11/14/17 6:39 am
11/14/17 6:39 am
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Posts: 77
Palmerston North, New Zealand,
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wheller151 Offline OP
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Thse fgures are after a run with engine nice and hot.
The cold engine figures are about 5psi less on each cylinder


T140v 1977 Export American Spec.
T160 Trident
Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #715021
11/14/17 1:46 pm
11/14/17 1:46 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,536
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Hi,

Originally Posted by wheller151
I only get 90, 85 and 87 but the bike still runs sweet as a nut

Had the same. Needed a rebore. frown

Hth.

Regards,

Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #715405
11/16/17 7:31 pm
11/16/17 7:31 pm
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Magnolia, TX
htown Online content
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Since it is consistent across the cylinders I would say it's likely worn bores/rings instead of valves. Does it burn any oil or have any blue smoke? Squirt some oil into the cylinders through the plug holes and redo the compression test. If the readings go up significantly it is a pretty definite sign it is the bore/rings. Rebore and new pistons and rings would probably restore lost performance. On the other hand, you probably aren't hurting the bike by riding it as is as long as you aren't fouling the plugs with oil. I have a BSA that has compression around a 100 psi per hole. I could overhaul the top end but it doesn't smoke or use excessive oil so for now I just ride it and enjoy it. It doesn't see many miles in a year. So depends on how much you ride it and when you want to redo the top end. Might as well do the valves while you have it apart.

Last edited by htown; 11/16/17 7:45 pm.

1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: T160 compression [Re: Stuart] #715491
11/17/17 7:12 am
11/17/17 7:12 am
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 77
Palmerston North, New Zealand,
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wheller151 Offline OP
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Odear cheers mate I sort of thought that migt be the case.
Was there a marked improvent in performance after you had yours done and what sort of compression figs do you get after the rebore.

Last edited by wheller151; 11/17/17 7:44 am.

T140v 1977 Export American Spec.
T160 Trident
Re: T160 compression [Re: htown] #715494
11/17/17 7:40 am
11/17/17 7:40 am
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Palmerston North, New Zealand,
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wheller151 Offline OP
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cheers htown
I hear what your saying here and its another case of "if its not broke dont fix it."
I changed the plugs to the new varidian NGK BR8EIX and that fixed the fouling and oiling problem instantly. Amazingly the engine runs smoth and is better now than ever before so im a bit reluctant now to strip it down now.

However could you just advise me a bit more as i dont want to get left with a smoking heap up out on the ranges all on my own. I really hate pushing my bikes home, its degrading doing the last mile, lol.

As it gets worse over time (I only do about 2000k a year) and the compression i presume will continue to drop, then should I presume the compression will just contine to drop and drop and the oiling and plug fouling will get worse till I guess she wont start any more.
Im happy and can work with that even to a push , just dont want anything catastropic to happen.

Last edited by wheller151; 11/17/17 7:45 am.

T140v 1977 Export American Spec.
T160 Trident
Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #715527
11/17/17 4:35 pm
11/17/17 4:35 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,536
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Hi,

Originally Posted by wheller151
Was there a marked improvent in performance after you had yours done

Twenty-odd years ago, hard to remember ... smile

Originally Posted by wheller151
what sort of compression figs do you get after the rebore.

Long time since I checked but iirc around what you're seeing on your Bonny

Originally Posted by wheller151
its another case of "if its not broke dont fix it."

confused But it is broke ...

Originally Posted by wheller151
I changed the plugs to the new varidian NGK BR8EIX

confused Anything NGK suffixed "IX" has an iridium centre electrode.

Originally Posted by wheller151
could you just advise me a bit more

As above, it's broke. Just because it 'runs' doesn't mean it isn't broke. Depending on the mileage, history and the reason the compression pressures are that low, could be (likely) other things are worn, that a strip-down will reveal. Compression pressure is a diagnostic for a cylinder, nothing else. There are other parts in a triple engine for which the diagnostic of excessive wear is ...

BANG! facepalm

Hth.

Regards,

Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #715573
11/17/17 10:39 pm
11/17/17 10:39 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
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ohio, usa
Originally Posted by Stuart
There are other parts in a triple engine for which the diagnostic of excessive wear is ...

BANG! facepalm

Hth.

Regards,


this is very true. rod bearings, for instance.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


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die once.
Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #715584
11/18/17 12:05 am
11/18/17 12:05 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,199
Magnolia, TX
htown Online content
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First thing I would do is put an oil pressure gauge on it and see what you have for pressure going down the highway with the engine warmed up. This will tell you a lot about the condition of the bearings/bottom end. I have one of these. Don't worry about the address he is a very reliable vendor. What I like about it is that it uses a banjo fitting on one of the front galley oil plugs.
https://www.eBay.com/itm/TRIUMPH-T150-T160-BSA-ROCKET-3-OIL-PRESSURE-GAUGE-KIT-BLACK-FACE-INSTRUMENT/222455970921?hash=item33cb68bc69:g:dcEAAOxyeR9TGzpY&vxp=mtr

Last edited by htown; 11/18/17 12:07 am.

1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: T160 compression [Re: htown] #715742
11/19/17 11:10 am
11/19/17 11:10 am
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 77
Palmerston North, New Zealand,
W
wheller151 Offline OP
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Hi htown
this is a great idea and the oil pressure before I start taking the engine apart.


T140v 1977 Export American Spec.
T160 Trident
Re: T160 compression [Re: Stuart] #715744
11/19/17 11:26 am
11/19/17 11:26 am
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 77
Palmerston North, New Zealand,
W
wheller151 Offline OP
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Hi Stuart
many thanks and yes I agree it needs another look.

htown suggested I check the oil pressure first which I will do this week.
If its low then its going to be a very expensive full rebuild job for me.

The odd thing is the motor was sent way for a rebuild by the previous owner only two years ago, and I would have thought they would have done a rebore as well as doing the mains.
All very strange to me but hopfully the oil pressure result should be a good indicator as to what I need to do next.


T140v 1977 Export American Spec.
T160 Trident
Re: T160 compression [Re: kevin roberts] #715745
11/19/17 11:33 am
11/19/17 11:33 am
Joined: Jul 2017
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Palmerston North, New Zealand,
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wheller151 Offline OP
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OMG What a picture and hope it wasent terminal for the bike.
Enough to give a guy nightmares.........
Looks like a lot of road rash as well on the bike and trust you came out of it ok.

That would have been a big job but trust all is well now with the bike


T140v 1977 Export American Spec.
T160 Trident
Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #715747
11/19/17 11:46 am
11/19/17 11:46 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

fefsa
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fefsa
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ohio, usa
nope. clutch in, coasted to a stop. oil everywhere.

numbers matching original 74. still contemplating its future.

if it comes back it will have an oil pressure gauge.


live every day.
die once.
Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #715819
11/19/17 7:39 pm
11/19/17 7:39 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,174
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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New Jersey USA
Kevin--as you know I have an orphanage for Tridents.
If you want to get rid of the bike as is then please PM me.
HTH

Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #715898
11/20/17 1:47 pm
11/20/17 1:47 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,356
Running from demons in WNY
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Kevin, blowups with aluminum auto engines can generally be repaired by the usual welding techniques..Then machining the parts back to spec and perhaps cosmetic work on the repair to make it less visible...But the extent of the damage sometimes prevents repairs....From what I see the Trident crankcase might be able to be welded nicely...But if main bores are knocked out of alignment it's not a matter of line boring like an auto engine...if you're lucky, maybe it looks worse than it is......I see a few Trident crankcase sections on eBay for reasonable money...But mixing up parts on these engines might not be the best...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #715902
11/20/17 2:44 pm
11/20/17 2:44 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content

fefsa
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ohio, usa
dunno. we're talking crank, rods, maybe cams, maybe head . . . if the bearing bores are damaged then i imagine the motor is history, economically.

i don't want to take it apart until i have a reasonable expectation of a repair or engine swap. too many of these ended up parted out as basket cases because someone went in and couldn't follow through with the plan.


live every day.
die once.
Re: T160 compression [Re: Hillbilly bike] #715903
11/20/17 2:44 pm
11/20/17 2:44 pm
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,876
Boston, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Online content

#irideslow
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Posts: 2,876
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Kevin, blowups with aluminum auto engines can generally be repaired by the usual welding techniques..Then machining the parts back to spec and perhaps cosmetic work on the repair to make it less visible...But the extent of the damage sometimes prevents repairs....From what I see the Trident crankcase might be able to be welded nicely...But if main bores are knocked out of alignment it's not a matter of line boring like an auto engine...if you're lucky, maybe it looks worse than it is......I see a few Trident crankcase sections on Ebay for reasonable money...But mixing up parts on these engines might not be the best...



Jaye Strait (Britech New England) recently posted on FB re. welding up the cases on a TR6CV
https://www.facebook.com/JayeSStrait/

"The rod broke right underneath the RH piston it continued to run on the LH side crank spinning broken rod poking holes all way around. Literally sawed the engine in half"

Scroll down to Nov. 4 post for full description and 40 pics.

Looks like a "blank check" kind of repair and rebuild.

Last edited by kurt fischer; 11/20/17 3:02 pm.

Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000 (for sale!)
Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #715905
11/20/17 2:57 pm
11/20/17 2:57 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,174
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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WOW!---Kurt--thanks for posting.
That is what you call a blow up!
First time I stripped an engine I was 17 years old and had just bought a 1960 BSA A7 Shooting Star from my uncle.
After a couple of days the youthful temptation to see "what it will do" overcame me and I headed for the local bypass which was on a slope.
I came down--well tucked in---the speedo was up to about 80 and---BANG!----the drive side con rod came neatly through the crankcase.
A hole about 2" square.
Stripped the engine, had the case half welded in one of the local engineering works at a cost of a packet of 10 cigarettes and away it went.
Rode that bike for 9 years afterwards and for most of that time it was my only form of transport.
So--everything is possible I guess!

Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #716184
11/22/17 9:31 am
11/22/17 9:31 am
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 77
Palmerston North, New Zealand,
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wheller151 Offline OP
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Hi htown
so ive got an oil pressure gauge now but were to connect it to to give engine oil pressure is another matter.
I tried taking a line of the pressure switch port but that just about blew the gauge to bits as I think thats straight of the pump.
My manual says there is a blanking plug you can use in the crank case but that wont work as an on going connection only as a test point.
So my question now is where is the most logical place to take the feed from that would give an engine oil pressure.
I thought about putting a branch off the oil cooler line but thats on the return and im not certain this would be the best place.

Any ideas or pointers would be great


T140v 1977 Export American Spec.
T160 Trident
Re: T160 compression [Re: Tridentman] #716189
11/22/17 11:52 am
11/22/17 11:52 am
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Palmerston North, New Zealand,
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wheller151 Offline OP
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Hearing this im begining to wonder why all bikes are not fitted with oil pressure gauges as standard.
Mi thinks I will fit one to the bonney and the trident.
Fitting one on the bonney is easy but the trident has got me stuck.
Fitting a gauge to the oil pressure switch port is no good on the trident as its straight off the oil pump, and nearly blew the gauge to bits.
Any idea other than using the crank case plug as suggested in the manualto engineoil pressure.
I thought about using a branch off the oil cooler line but im not certain this would give a true engine pressure as its on the retun line?


T140v 1977 Export American Spec.
T160 Trident
Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #716206
11/22/17 2:14 pm
11/22/17 2:14 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,356
Running from demons in WNY
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John Healy mentioned that if a triple oil pressure falls below 60 psi at road speeds a seizure will soon follow.....Most other engines are not this critical...Perhaps besides an oil pressure gauge you may need some sort of device to kill ignition on one cylinder to get the rider's attention immediately...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #716210
11/22/17 2:34 pm
11/22/17 2:34 pm
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D.W.R. Offline
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I run mine off the oil pressure switch port, no problems! I did it that way because I didn't want the line anywhere near the exhaust system and that's where the factory put the sending unit so it must be ok. Since the gauge reads 90 lbs or more at cold startup perhaps some are using an 80 lb gauge thus "pegging" it at start up? I would expect that on a sound engine it would! I run a 100 lb gauge with a 270 degree sweep and once warm it settles down to 75-80 lbs going down the road and 20-25 lbs at hot idle, just like it's supposed to do.
Don R.

Last edited by D.W.R.; 11/22/17 2:40 pm.

71 Rocket 3
72 B50 MX
66-71 A 65 Bitsa
96 Trident 900
Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #716216
11/22/17 3:43 pm
11/22/17 3:43 pm
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Boston, Massachusetts
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Quote
OMG What a picture and hope it wasn't terminal for the bike.


While the twin is an easy fix, the triple is a whole other story. No matter how good a welder you are, or how clever, getting all three case to align is more than just a "bit more work". You have not only the four main bearings to align you also have 6 camshaft bearings. With the twin any distortion can be dealt with. If either bearing housing is distorted it can be sleeved and bored to size. With the cam bearings being replaceable sorting them is no different than when servicing them during a normal rebuild. Anyone doing this would already have the set-up to reface the crankcase mouth.

I am not saying that there is not someone out there who can do this. We did send men to the moon.

I just stripped two of these. One had already thrown a rod (timing side) and the other the right rod would just barely turn on the journal and was only moments away from breaking. The center mains on both of them were "toast" and will need to be reground. Getting the crank ground is another story.

The "book" indicated oil pressure for a Trident/A75 is 90 lbs. That's using 20w50 engine warm going down the road (20w50 is good to about 100°F - any hotter and you will need 20w60). If you are getting less it is telling you a story and rarely does it have a happy ending. From what I have seen, and I have seen my fair share of these come apart, the 60 pound oil pressure figure, referenced above, is telling you there will be trouble ahead.

And no, it isn't the rods that are to blame. People who use these in anger do use Carrillo rods. Not because there is something inherently wrong with the stock rods. It is when the mains fail to send oil to the rods, and the rod bearing ties up and they still do with Carrillo rods, the rod is less likely to break and cause catastrophic damage.


Re: T160 compression [Re: wheller151] #716224
11/22/17 4:32 pm
11/22/17 4:32 pm
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John is correct on the pressure figures (Of course he is). I'm not always getting 85+ going down the road because I live in North Carolina where summer temps commonly reach near 100 degrees but don't often exceed that. I ride year round and use 20w50 all year. Don't see any reason to change back and forth between "summer" and "winter" weight oil when my pressures are well above anything that might cause concern. 75-80 lbs is my low summer time mark, if it drops to 70 I'm replacing bearings! On the issue of where to install the line, either the left or right blanking plugs or the switch port, it's all the same cavity so I would expect the same pressure no mater which position you use. If my thinking is incorrect on that I'm more than willing to be enlightened.
Don R.


71 Rocket 3
72 B50 MX
66-71 A 65 Bitsa
96 Trident 900
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