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#712312 - 10/22/17 11:18 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Bishop, Calif.
Fired up the 72 today and watched the return till it warmed up. Used to spurt almost across the tank. Now it dribbles down the pipe. Not comfortable riding this way. Found some $35/$40 oil gauges but they were all
1/8" NPT not NPS. Is there an adapter?


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
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#712314 - 10/22/17 11:28 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Take the bike for a good ride, at least ten miles. When you get home remove the OP sender and thread the NPT in with your fingers until snug. Do not put a wrench on it! Start the bike back up and check the oil pressure at idle and each 1000 rpm up to 5000 the fitting might leak a little but no big deal. If you see around 10 psi per thousand rpm, remove the gauge, put the sender back in and enjoy the bike.

Last edited by htown; 10/22/17 11:38 pm.

1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
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1972 Norton Commando
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#712696 - 10/25/17 7:10 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Well, I'm tired of fooling with the 72 while on my knees. They keep screaming NO,NO. The 68 is on the bench waiting for me to get off my butt and put the top end back on. Meanwhile some of the finest fall weather is slipping by. Finish the 68, then figure out the 72. Could be a long winter.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#712697 - 10/25/17 7:26 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Don, are you using 3/16" nylon tube with compression fitting or a banjo fitting?

#712699 - 10/25/17 7:42 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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None of the above. Just the stock electrical sending unit that came on a 72 1/2.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#712709 - 10/25/17 9:35 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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What was the connection for the oil pressure gauges? Did it have an electrical sensor that screws into the case (with NPT thread)?

#712713 - 10/25/17 10:42 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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All the mechanical gauges I have looked at have a threaded connector on the back with a hole in the middle so you can hook up a tube to the engine somewhere. My 72 just has an idiot light with the sender screwed into the planking plug hole on the timing cover. There is no info on any of the mechanical gauges to let you know the size or threads of the connector.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#712717 - 10/25/17 11:36 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Most or all aftermarket automotive gauges are 1/8 NPT....If your bike's cover is a British straight thread you can just run in a 1/8 NPT tap and call it good.You may want to remove the cover to do this... I have done this a few times with no problems. Of course some here will work it up into a big problem with dire consequences grin


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#712720 - 10/26/17 12:01 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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I only want to hook up the pressure gauge temporarily. I like the idiot light because I are one. I'd like to hook up a buzzer to it to really get my attention.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#712726 - 10/26/17 12:53 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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The O'Reilly store in Bishop has a 2" Equus pressure gauge for $20:
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...re-17812/oil-pressure-gauge/6244/4299447
The Equus web page does not give the fitting size but the sell an adapter and hose kit:
http://www.iequus.com/Product/9801
You can rethread the NPT fitting to NPS (straight) so you do not have to modify the cover.

#712754 - 10/26/17 7:47 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Oil pressure gauge is something I need to fit to my 650. Idiot light is u/s due to lack of wiring. But then sometimes ignorance is bliss.

#712757 - 10/26/17 8:15 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: Hillbilly bike]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Most or all aftermarket automotive gauges are 1/8 NPT....If your bike's cover is a British straight thread you can just run in a 1/8 NPT tap and call it good.
I have done this a few times with no problems.

I'm not surprised. Triumph and BSA never used a "British" thread for the oil pressure switches - early '69 are 1/8"NPT, the rest (including '72) are 1/8"NPS. Given this has been repeated ad nauseam on here for years and both 1/8"NP threads are 0.405" major diameter and 27 tpi, not sure why anyone'd go to the trouble of removing a timing cover to run a tap into the pressure switch hole, unless opening up NPT to NPS?

Hth.

Regards,

#712762 - 10/26/17 8:55 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted by desco
I only want to hook up the pressure gauge temporarily. I like the idiot light because I are one. I'd like to hook up a buzzer to it to really get my attention.

Mmmm ... snag with that is the standard switch pressure is wa-aa-ay below even normal tickover pressure (~7 psi and ~20 psi respectively). Given the "Normal running" pressure in the '72 workshop manual is 65/80 psi, any time you see the idiot light (or hear the buzzer) when the engine's running, it's more an "Engine donald" light.

There have been previous mentions on here of the idiot light illuminating after a hard run in high ambient temperature, without subsequent engine problems. The limitation of the switch and light is they can only indicate one thing. Otoh, a gauge can tell you whether to worry or not.

Put another way, would you change the speedo. for a light and a switch that extinguished the light above 7 mph? Or d'you need to know whether you're above, on or below the applicable speed limit, particularly if a cop's behind you? smile

Hth,

Regards,

#712767 - 10/26/17 10:22 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: Stuart]  
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Originally Posted by Stuart
Hi,

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Most or all aftermarket automotive gauges are 1/8 NPT....If your bike's cover is a British straight thread you can just run in a 1/8 NPT tap and call it good.
I have done this a few times with no problems.

I'm not surprised. Triumph and BSA never used a "British" thread for the oil pressure switches - early '69 are 1/8"NPT, the rest (including '72) are 1/8"NPS. Given this has been repeated ad nauseam on here for years and both 1/8"NP threads are 0.405" major diameter and 27 tpi, not sure why anyone'd go to the trouble of removing a timing cover to run a tap into the pressure switch hole, unless opening up NPT to NPS?

Hth.

Regards,


You cannot screw a 1/8 NPT male into the 1/8 NPS thread more than a turn or two without using excessive force...Ask me how I know this...Have you actually tried to screw a 1/8 NPT male fitting into the timing cover? Hey, At least I said British thread, not English thread grin


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#712774 - 10/26/17 11:56 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: Hillbilly bike]  
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Have you actually tried to screw a 1/8 NPT male fitting into the timing cover?

Don't be patronising.

I've Triumphs with both NPS and NPT switches, crankcases and timing covers. No, I do not routinely spend workshop time unscrewing pressure switches and refitting them for the hell of it. Do you?

However, it was how I discovered my T100 didn't have the 1/8"NPS thread in the timing cover that the parts book said it should have. If it did have, an original 1/8"NPS pressure switch from my owned-from-brand-new T160 would've screwed into the T100's timing cover. It didn't, because the timing cover of my early '69 T100 has a 1/8"NPT thread.

Almost anyone who's bought a 60-2213 pressure switch in about the last three decades has screwed a 1/8"NPT male into a 1/8"NPS female. Because, as I posted above, "early '69 are 1/8"NPT, the rest (including '72) are 1/8"NPS"; however, the trade supply 60-2213 with a 1/8"NPT thread, supplying 60-3719 (the '74-on part number) with 1/8"NPS.

If you read "desco's" other recent thread, he specifically describes a correctly-sized NPT switch that he has fitted into his bike's, by definition, NPS-threaded timing cover.

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
You cannot screw a 1/8 NPT male into the 1/8 NPS thread more than a turn or two without using excessive force...Ask me how I know this...

What you are likely to have encountered is what I have encountered - from time-to-time, 'the trade' punts out taper-thread pressure switches with an oversize thread - specifically, instead of tapering down from 0.405", that's their smallest o.d. and they taper up. facepalm Yes, I've measured them with a micrometer and, amongst others, I've posted about the problem several times in about the last fifteen years.

Otoh, if the switch you're talking about was the correct sizes, a more positive approach would be to identify what the various threads and other sizes were, and post it all here?

Regards,

#712782 - 10/26/17 1:54 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: Stuart]  
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Originally Posted by Stuart
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Have you actually tried to screw a 1/8 NPT male fitting into the timing cover?

Don't be patronising.

I've Triumphs with both NPS and NPT switches, crankcases and timing covers. No, I do not routinely spend workshop time unscrewing pressure switches and refitting them for the hell of it. Do you?

However, it was how I discovered my T100 didn't have the 1/8"NPS thread in the timing cover that the parts book said it should have. If it did have, an original 1/8"NPS pressure switch from my owned-from-brand-new T160 would've screwed into the T100's timing cover. It didn't, because the timing cover of my early '69 T100 has a 1/8"NPT thread.

Almost anyone who's bought a 60-2213 pressure switch in about the last three decades has screwed a 1/8"NPT male into a 1/8"NPS female. Because, as I posted above, "early '69 are 1/8"NPT, the rest (including '72) are 1/8"NPS"; however, the trade supply 60-2213 with a 1/8"NPT thread, supplying 60-3719 (the '74-on part number) with 1/8"NPS.

If you read "desco's" other recent thread, he specifically describes a correctly-sized NPT switch that he has fitted into his bike's, by definition, NPS-threaded timing cover.

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
You cannot screw a 1/8 NPT male into the 1/8 NPS thread more than a turn or two without using excessive force...Ask me how I know this...

What you are likely to have encountered is what I have encountered - from time-to-time, 'the trade' punts out taper-thread pressure switches with an oversize thread - specifically, instead of tapering down from 0.405", that's their smallest o.d. and they taper up. facepalm Yes, I've measured them with a micrometer and, amongst others, I've posted about the problem several times in about the last fifteen years.

Otoh, if the switch you're talking about was the correct sizes, a more positive approach would be to identify what the various threads and other sizes were, and post it all here?

Regards,


I don't patronize, I call people out when I have doubts, you have responded......And yes I have screwed fittings in and out while fitting oil pressure gauges to at least five Triumph 650's, two of them pre units..All of them were a poor fit into the cover and all of them needed the 1/8 NPT tap .....Maybe covers get swapped around over the years, maybe it's the "trade punts" you mention...But..I am a rather primitive mechanic and when faced with a problem I just find a solution and don't get overly concerned with what should be...
The NPT and NPS fit is often a problem on US made vehicles when swapping power steering units or auto transmissions...There are actually adapters made to allow NPS and NPT to be connected properly...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#714428 - 11/09/17 11:03 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Well I finally got around to putting a high dollar (14 of 'em) oil pressure gauge on the 72. Getting a bit nippy but I drove around town till things heated up. Showing about 23/ 25 psi at idle and 75/80 at 3,000 rpm. I'm going to check the oil filter for crap and the crank oil seal on Saturday.
Had to solder parts of two brass fittings together to put on to the gauge and found one that fit the timing cover like it was made for it. Hooked up with 3/16" fuel line rated at 60 psi.
I think all is well.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#714429 - 11/09/17 11:16 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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1/8 bspp works fine. Only 1 tpi difference over an inch. Loads of cars still use the size so that's the switch i use.



#714436 - 11/10/17 12:28 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Just reread all this.
Stuart both speedos are broken. Have been for a long time. Been stopped a few times. Most cops are just curious and want to look at the bikes. I get a lot of warnings. The joy of living in a SMALL town.
Of course the oil just dribbles out of the return line. I have a much bigger line feeding the rockers than I used to to. DUH.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#714470 - 11/10/17 8:35 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Hi Dmadigan, I'm using compression fitting & nylon line. Genuine Stuart Warner gauge. Was installed by prior owner.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
#714471 - 11/10/17 8:43 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Hi desco, So I take it the fat oil line to rockers is sending too much oil to rockers & not enough back to tank?

Of course you must still be on a positive balance of oil return or oil would progressively fill crank case with oil. Of course oil in frame would be correspondingly low.

This is why I was curious about the size hole the frame return T that feeds the rockers. If that hole is small then it would be the metering for rocker oil. So the rubber hose to rocker pipe wouldn't matter.

That's what I don't know. What meters oil to rockers? The hole diameter in the T, or the rocker steel line diameter?
Don


1973 Tiger 750
#714477 - 11/10/17 12:21 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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I just added "drain the sump" to my Sat. list. Last time it contained exactly 200 cc.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#714481 - 11/10/17 12:49 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: TR7RVMan]  
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan


This is why I was curious about the size hole the frame return T that feeds the rockers. If that hole is small then it would be the metering for rocker oil. So the rubber hose to rocker pipe wouldn't matter.

That's what I don't know. What meters oil to rockers? The hole diameter in the T, or the rocker steel line diameter?
Don


Think about the restriction size of about .135" at the T.... The pipes feeding the rockers are about .125 inner diameter? How about the oil feed holes in the rocker shafts? I believe there's less than one PSI oil pressure in the line...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#714505 - 11/10/17 3:49 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted by desco
Last time it contained exactly 200 cc.


That's normal.

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#714541 - 11/10/17 9:05 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Hi Hillbilly, I get it regarding return hole. I know about pressure differential.

What puzzles me is exactly the formula Triumph used to get the results a stock bike has.

I've started my bike with valve covers off & very little oil comes out of rocker ends. Most runs straight down the side of rocker box. A tiny bit flows along top of rocker arm & is flung off the end with almost nothing on tip of valve stem. I suppose the rocker adjuster is lubed by mostly mist. Same with push rod end. It seems to work fine as thousands of bikes are running without issues.

Back to desco's bike, things are not adding up. If oil is returning to tank less it would eventually fill motor with oil. That doesn't seem to be happening since he's riding it like this.

Changing the balance of rocker volume to return is possible within limits. But at the end of the day the return must still be greater than feed pump volume to keep engine from filling with oil.

On some Triumph race motors they feed the rockers off the oil pressure switch port. No idea size of orifice they use. I don't know why they do this. Specifically on Gene Romero's T140 Triumph flat tracker with I think a Track master frame. On display at Barber motorcycle museum.

Interesting stuff!
Don


1973 Tiger 750
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