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#714317 - 11/08/17 10:49 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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I don't see that it has been clearly established that there is a problem as such, just some doubt about ease of starting. It needs another experienced britbiker to give it a go to give a baseline to this otherwise subjective situation. My T120 has always been an immediate starter, from cold with flood a considered body heave always enough, when hot, a well judged push with the leg.
Bob has had some troubles which are not easy to appreciate, but may result in difficulties in coordination and muscle strength. I would like to encourage Bob in his determination to pursue his interest, which I think is thoroughly worthwhile, especially having heard his pan-europe story - how many of you have done anything remotely like that?

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#714318 - 11/08/17 10:55 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: slofut]  
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Originally Posted by slofut
Originally Posted by btour

Bike still runs good, just won't kick start unless undo speed is applied at kick. That is why I suspect magnets/pick up. It was kick starting, something degraded. There were things, choke mounting screw, rearview mirror, etc. that came loose. I don't know why storage does that but it seems too.


Bob, all kidding aside, I really think you may have more of a fuel problem here.



Slofut, That is a good idea and those by pass passages maybe blocked. But remember there was no gas in carbs or the tanks. It was all drained. And the bike started after 2nd kick coming out of storage and continuted to start well until after about 400 miles.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#714323 - 11/08/17 11:19 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: koan58]  
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Originally Posted by koan58
I don't see that it has been clearly established that there is a problem as such, just some doubt about ease of starting. It needs another experienced britbiker to give it a go to give a baseline to this otherwise subjective situation. My T120 has always been an immediate starter, from cold with flood a considered body heave always enough, when hot, a well judged push with the leg.
Bob has had some troubles which are not easy to appreciate, but may result in difficulties in coordination and muscle strength. I would like to encourage Bob in his determination to pursue his interest, which I think is thoroughly worthwhile, especially having heard his pan-europe story - how many of you have done anything remotely like that?



Thank you.

Another little bit about that trip. When we left the plane was grounded for 4 hours because of humungous thunderstorm. They turned the AC off in the plane. It was brutally stifling. Just like me, I ranged too far from home. I was in Yugoslavia and my return flight was due to leave. If I missed it I would be stranded in europe forever like so many other Americans that year. I stopped long enough to see St. Marks Sq. and pick up that girl from Seattle who wanted a lift. We woke in the morning and we had been rolling in tomatoes. smile She didn't seem to care. So, I had driven all most straight through. That tunnel whatever it is, almost froze me to death.

I had about 5 US in my pocket. Just enough for gas. No money for food. Emory airfreight let me use there shower. Boy did I stink. All my clothes were dirty. I filched some rolls from the airport counter. They left em unattended. BOAC had a sense of humor. They moved me up to first class :), I think to shock the others. I got free drinks and food, and unfortunately galois. That is when I started smoking. Never touched a ciggy before that. Hated em.

All this made that song by Rod Stewart my favorite one. You know, it goes like, "On the Peking ferry I was feeling Merry, feeling like I didn't fit in> My body stunk but I kept my funk".

You guys want to hear the story of how I judged a beauty contest in Yugoslavia? You have heard of the judgement of Paris and all the trouble it caused. It is like that. Or should I save that for last? I don't know how I got out of there alive.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#714326 - 11/08/17 11:34 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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home of grits and gnats...Sout...
Originally Posted by btour
Originally Posted by slofut
Originally Posted by btour

Bike still runs good, just won't kick start unless undo speed is applied at kick. That is why I suspect magnets/pick up. It was kick starting, something degraded. There were things, choke mounting screw, rearview mirror, etc. that came loose. I don't know why storage does that but it seems too.


Bob, all kidding aside, I really think you may have more of a fuel problem here.



Slofut, That is a good idea and those by pass passages maybe blocked. But remember there was no gas in carbs or the tanks. It was all drained. And the bike started after 2nd kick coming out of storage and continuted to start well until after about 400 miles.


Oh, I didn't realize you had put 400 miles on it recently. But that actually makes me suspect fuel delivery even more. It's still a 40 year old tank no matter how nice it is. But for ease of troubleshooting, go out there and spray some starting fluid in the carbs, both of them, switch it on and kick it over and tell me if it fires off quickly or not. I really want to know.


'68 Bonnie
'74 CL360
trail 70's and minitrails
#714373 - 11/09/17 1:32 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Slofut,

Thanks, but no starting fluid for me. If I am going to do that I will use NAPA carb and throttle body cleaner. I actually have to start my lawn tractor with that every time this year. Usually it is only the first time for the season. With that beastie, every season I drain all the gas out and start fresh with a full tank. I suspect water in that system. And sometimes, I believe that tractor carb needs priming. But this year, that did not work.

NAPA Carb and TB works very well. A small engine mechanic told me that you can run an engine on it.

My continuing tests of the gas do reveal much more wax than usual. Phase separation is happening despite startron. But nowhere near as much as it would. I mean the water the gas sucks out of the air is "flattened" and dispersed in the bottom of the cap more than if not treated. That is the last result I got when I added startron directly to the cap and then the gas.

Now John mentioned something about new low evap gas in Mass. That maybe the problem. Now I heard that one local gas station invested in a system that monitors the level of water in his tanks. That would indicate that there is a problem in the area. It maybe that someone is distributing bad gas with water in it. I have to find out when he is working and ask him.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#714374 - 11/09/17 1:39 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Gavin,

I did test the resistance on the white wire from the sparx harness back to the white wire on the key switch, all good. Same with red to SPG to battery. I will do it again and write it down. Maybe I should resistance test white wire from harness back to ve- at battery with switch on?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#714389 - 11/09/17 4:30 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler

Your memory is toast, we discussed stripping kill switches in a bag before , the bag stops the bits from vanishing onto the shop floor. it was in a post I deleted.





The switch is on a wire at the handle bars. How do you hang the bag? I just can't picture this. You got a picture of this being done?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#714397 - 11/09/17 5:32 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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"Maybe I should resistance test white wire from harness back to ve- at battery with switch on?"
Yes do this. safer to do it from the fuse holder, but from the battery post is OK, sort of, on Ohms the meter has a huge resistance so there is little risk of shorting.
I have mentioned this before in a previous post, fuse holder to igniter box tail where white from EI meets white yellow from kill switch.will prove ignition and kill switches,.
Here.
"Yes, this a sound test even better go to the source, put one test lead in the fuse holder on the Bike ( not battery) side of the fuse holder , put the other lead on the white yellow lead to the box. This proves the whole chain in one go, with the ignition switch off this should read big numbers, with the ignition switch on this should read very close to zero, I would do this on the beep setting first, if your meter has crock clip ends that will hang on there own this is a lot easier, with the tails fitted you can operate the switches and hear the beep go on or off, test the ignition switch in all positions , and push the kill switch to check as well, if the beep gets " buzzy" look harder at the meter , poor connections will give an audible clue, one of the good features of the fluke."

To remove the kill switch , means unplugging at the loom under the tank/spine front. You could do it at the bar, but with the tails unplugged its a lot easier to test, if its like my71 the RHS switch top button is kill, lower button is redundant but has White red tails which are not used ( was to be for electric start models), paddle switch has all the indicator wires, 3 that have green main colours IIRC. To do a viz and clean of the switch contacts it doesnt need to be unplugged, it will be a little awkward working in a bag at the bar end but its not a major challenge, once the switch board is removed and the ball/ spring / paddle are safely in the bag, you can have a good look at all the contacts.
I recommend that contact pairs are cleaned with 220 Glass paper , not carborundum/emery ( particles left behind are less damaging in the long run). fold a small strip , draw it through the contacts with light pressure once, thats all it should take. Before you do this put yer specs on , get a good light and inspect the contact faces for signs of pitting or burning. use an old tooth brush to clean out the housing if dust // white fur oxides /insects are in there.

There is no need to hang the bag, , remove the 4 screws which join the housings together, part the switch half from the rest, put this in a big bag, put your thumb over the the switch board and hold it down as you unscrew the two small board retaining screws, with screws undone, relax grip slowly and catch ball spring and paddle in the bag. Now inspect.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/09/17 5:35 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#714441 - 11/10/17 1:31 am Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Originally Posted by btour
Slofut,

Thanks, but no starting fluid for me. If I am going to do that I will use NAPA carb and throttle body cleaner. I actually have to start my lawn tractor with that every time this year. Usually it is only the first time for the season. With that beastie, every season I drain all the gas out and start fresh with a full tank. I suspect water in that system. And sometimes, I believe that tractor carb needs priming. But this year, that did not work.

NAPA Carb and TB works very well. A small engine mechanic told me that you can run an engine on it.

My continuing tests of the gas do reveal much more wax than usual. Phase separation is happening despite startron. But nowhere near as much as it would. I mean the water the gas sucks out of the air is "flattened" and dispersed in the bottom of the cap more than if not treated. That is the last result I got when I added startron directly to the cap and then the gas.

Now John mentioned something about new low evap gas in Mass. That maybe the problem. Now I heard that one local gas station invested in a system that monitors the level of water in his tanks. That would indicate that there is a problem in the area. It maybe that someone is distributing bad gas with water in it. I have to find out when he is working and ask him.


That's fine but I find that starting fluid does fire off quicker than carb cleaner, not as safe I realize but for trouble shooting purposes in this case, not enough to hurt anything at all. Startron doesn't stop phase separation afaik, but it's claim to fame is preventing organic growth (which is a big problem with ethanol gas).
This keeps water in solution completely for extended periods.
http://k-100.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oibWiBBHS6o

But it's not going to make your bike start with the kicker.

And discussing and dissecting possibilities is nothing more than poser bench mechanics, and my Dad is king of that, but it's NOT going to get your bike running. Squirt something really flammable in the carbs and see if it fires off quickly!


'68 Bonnie
'74 CL360
trail 70's and minitrails
#714453 - 11/10/17 5:37 am Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Gavin,

I am tired right now. I will read it all in the morning.

You keep mentioning fuse holder. Right now I am having trouble testing the fuse holder itself. The probes won't fit in. I stuck the best slivers of metal in and tried. Only got a result once. I am thinking of bashing fuse up and using those bits. How do you test the holder?

I did not get voltage drops so I assumed it was fine. Maybe it is not.

Meanwhile all this moving of wires around has caused problems. I was lucky I noticed the g/w wire had been knocked off the rectifier. Think it was g/w might be g/y. Top wire on the rec.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#714475 - 11/10/17 11:23 am Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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To ohm test the fuse holder itself Check from batt neg post (if it is still connected) to ignition switch terminal with fuse in place.
If you have croc clips for your meter probes grab a small nail in the clip and use that to probe into the holder .

"I did not get voltage drops so I assumed it was fine. Maybe it is not."
As JF pointed out the volts test do not mean a huge amount without "load", they do tell the circuit is sort of oK, its making sure you have zero ohms right through the feed from battery to igniter box that is what we ware trying to establish.
This test is to ensure the EI box is getting a healthy supply.
If you know this is good then you can start suspecting other parts of the ignition system.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/10/17 11:29 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#714491 - 11/10/17 2:00 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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I hope you have a heated workspace as theres a cold snap here in Massachusetts. I don't know if this has been brought up but I think any EI needs a fast kick (200 rpm?) to produce a spark. This is something that fooled me in the beginning while testing my Boyer. Anyway, just wanted to chime in and say I am enjoying reading this thread. Something about the OP's writing style I enjoy.


Nicholas H
#714506 - 11/10/17 4:03 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: Nick H]  
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Originally Posted by Nick H
I hope you have a heated workspace as theres a cold snap here in Massachusetts. I don't know if this has been brought up but I think any EI needs a fast kick (200 rpm?) to produce a spark. This is something that fooled me in the beginning while testing my Boyer. Anyway, just wanted to chime in and say I am enjoying reading this thread. Something about the OP's writing style I enjoy.


Not quite, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

Yeah, We had a beautiful fall, and now winter winter, suddenly early. 14 and 15 degrees coming, and possible snow. I am angry at my friend. Those piles of gravel will freeze. His skid steerer had a direct to ground battery in it. I couldn't get it started. Had to fix to broken to coil wire in it. And I never ran it before, so would have to go slow. All would have been OK if he had said battery was 6 years old, or he had showed up. I kept warning that these falls happen. Most everything bad happens in the fall for me. We get that false Indian summer and then wham. Good news is. It will kill the ticks. No snow, light leaves, and hard freeze.

I wanted to wash the bike, change its oil and put it in the house. That becomes the priority. First do no harm. Which is why I am so slow on this. I used to know where every wire was, what it did, and why I ran it that way. Now I have to keep looking at it, until it becomes clearer in my minds eye. I reran the path of the Sparx harness and that caused problems. I knocked off the rectifier wire. I should have taken off the side covers first, but was trying to save time, and effort. I am physically much weaker, and everything hurts, from the accident. I apologize to the posters that this is taking so long. It might take a lot longer. No heat in the garage except an electric space heater.

Is that true about the fast kick with an EI? Why would that be so? Can it be changed? If not then I have to leap, on first kicks or the mixture will be unknown, for subsequent ones. See what I mean? Possible flooding. Now it should clear with wot, but it seems maybe not so much.

Last edited by btour; 11/10/17 4:04 pm.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#714585 - 11/11/17 1:37 am Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Btour,
Missed your earlier post about the accident. Thought you did not sound like your old self. Terribly sorry and apologize for my impatience. I would not worry about the need for a hefty kick start. For the last six months or so I have had to start my bikes standing next to them while they are on the center stand. My right knee is about useless except to hold my leg together. I have , at least, a 30 year old Boyer on the 72 and a 13 year old Pazon on the 68. Starting procedure is thus; tickle carbs till gas drips on engine. No choke, 72 has never had one and I don't use the one on the 68. Turn key on. Pull in clutch lever. Push kickstarter down with my hand till it bottoms out and put my left foot on it to hold it there. I can no longer lift my left leg high enough to start at the top of the kick. Release clutch lever and let the kickstarter come up to the the 9:00 or 9:30 position, depending on my left hip. Now all my weight is on my right knee so it is a very cautious push with my left leg. One or two tries is all it takes. When is the last time you checked the compression? I will buy myself a beer and offer a toast to you when this problem is solved.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#714617 - 11/11/17 1:35 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: desco]  
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Originally Posted by desco
Btour,
Missed your earlier post about the accident. Thought you did not sound like your old self. Terribly sorry and apologize for my impatience. I would not worry about the need for a hefty kick start. For the last six months or so I have had to start my bikes standing next to them while they are on the center stand. My right knee is about useless except to hold my leg together. I have , at least, a 30 year old Boyer on the 72 and a 13 year old Pazon on the 68. Starting procedure is thus; tickle carbs till gas drips on engine. No choke, 72 has never had one and I don't use the one on the 68. Turn key on. Pull in clutch lever. Push kickstarter down with my hand till it bottoms out and put my left foot on it to hold it there. I can no longer lift my left leg high enough to start at the top of the kick. Release clutch lever and let the kickstarter come up to the the 9:00 or 9:30 position, depending on my left hip. Now all my weight is on my right knee so it is a very cautious push with my left leg. One or two tries is all it takes. When is the last time you checked the compression? I will buy myself a beer and offer a toast to you when this problem is solved.


OK. Desco,

I understand your frustration and words said in haste. We are all good.

I too have thought about the compression issue. I will have to test it, when I can find my compression tester. And as far as mechanicals, I am still concerned about a sticking valve, which only sticks on slow turn over.

Another one is the clutch. I free it so it is very free, but moments later it is not again. I have adjusted it 3 times. Lately I slipped it a bunch. It seemed to get better.

Fraid this is going to have to wait until spring, unless we get some warm weather. I can't start it in the house, and it is going to be a project to put it there. It needs to be washed and oil changed first too.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#714739 - 11/12/17 1:02 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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I suppose I also need to convert to 6 volt coils. Here is what Steadfast Cycles says about the situation:
"You can run two 12 volt coils on a British motorcycle, but the spark tends to diminish after the coils are heated; there is not enough saturation time because there is a spark on every up stroke. The result is your performance can and most always will drop."
Seems to say that with the 12 volt coils you are getting a wasted spark on the exhaust stroke but won't with the 6 volt. Can anyone confirm this?


Nicholas H
#714748 - 11/12/17 1:40 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: Nick H]  
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Talking only of the situation usually found with most electronic ignitions which use conventional type coils, the coils (irrespective of whether they are 6 or 12v) must be placed in series with each other. So both situations produce wasted sparks.

Steadfast's explanation seems unnecessarily obscure.

To produce the intensity of spark as designed for, a 12v coil should be subject to 12v, and a 6v coil to 6v.

When 2 coils are in series, each one sees just half of the supply voltage.

We are using a system supplying 12v, so each coil sees 6v, which is fine for 6v coils.

However, 12v coils will be operating at half their design voltage, so the spark intensity will be much reduced. Many "less-demanding" engines aren't troubled by this, but it can cause problems on higher performance engines, and is certainly less than ideal.

#714751 - 11/12/17 1:45 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Hooray,
An explanation even I can understand.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#714757 - 11/12/17 2:39 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Yes, Thank you koan58. I had a bad experience ordering from Steadfast - terrible customer service - so I'm writing them off as flakes.


Nicholas H
#714765 - 11/12/17 3:24 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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really? they're one of first choices for ordering stuff, not least because they generally send stuff out right away. i've never had any difficulties with them.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#714773 - 11/12/17 4:18 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Here's what happened. Ordered a small item - kick start cotter pin. No tracking number came and it didn't come well past the day they said it would. They said they "lost it in the move". I found it elsewhere and told them to cancel the order. They sent it anyway the next day and wanted to charge me a restock fee to return it. Communcation with them was terrible. One bad incident shouldn't indict the whole company I suppose... Sorry to take this off topic. I'm done.

Last edited by Nick H; 11/12/17 4:19 pm.

Nicholas H
#714775 - 11/12/17 4:33 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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ohio, usa
they went from south california to washington. i'd hate to do that with a company that maintained inventory.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#714777 - 11/12/17 4:51 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: koan58]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,755
btour Online content
BritBike Forum member
btour  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,755
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Originally Posted by koan58
Talking only of the situation usually found with most electronic ignitions which use conventional type coils, the coils (irrespective of whether they are 6 or 12v) must be placed in series with each other. So both situations produce wasted sparks.



Hi Koan,

Is there a non conventional coil for our bikes? What is it? How does it work, and where do you mount it? How do you wire it? I think I have heard of such a thing but I can't remember.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#714788 - 11/12/17 5:39 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
koan58 Offline
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koan58  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
Isle of Wight, UK
Hi Bob,
By conventional I meant the type of coil that has been used in contact breaker type ignition systems for the last half century or more, often called "battery and coil ignition". The first generation of electronic ignitions for our bikes, Lucas Rita and Boyer from the 70's, were designed to use this type of coil.

This type of EI is now called "ana log", (and I would guess is the most common by far) to distinguish it from more recent EI developments such as "digital".

Digital, and some other later types, require special coils, which are totally unsuitable for use on the more common ana log EI's.

My own experience with Boyer ana log ignition is that given the battery and electrical system is good, the engine/carbs sound and the usual settings kept ok, it is a very reliable system and doesn't need anything in the way of faster kicking for starting, if anything quite the opposite.

#714791 - 11/12/17 6:33 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,897
triton thrasher Online content
BritBike Forum member
triton thrasher  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,897
scotland
You could divide coils into Kettering (points and battery) type and the lower resistance CDI type.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
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