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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714279
11/08/17 4:00 pm
11/08/17 4:00 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,637
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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Posts: 3,637
argyll. scotland, uk
My old red Boyer circa 2000 runs fine with 6V coils ( twin),if the leads are reversed it puts the timing miles out and creates a bang in the exhaust pipe.
Boyer used to offer a great service, return the box to the Factory with some cash for postage and they would send back a working unit if it was faulty. Dont know if this still applies. i never used it but others certainly did.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725489
02/13/18 9:54 pm
02/13/18 9:54 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
got some parts to simplify the ignition:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

i like electronic ignitions in general, but this one has been a bear. with a 12-degree mechanical AAU, i can expect some retard to make starting easier.

couldn't get the Boyer to retard at all. it would run at full advance without retarding at low rpm, which could have been reversed points leads, i'm told. except i couldn;t start it with the points leads the other way. so we'll see what original low-tech can contribute.

the AAU is interesting. i have never owned an AAU that had a visible scribe mark on the points cam for setting the points. i've always just turned the little bastards until the points were all the way up. maybe this one will save a minute or two.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 02/13/18 9:57 pm.

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die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725494
02/13/18 9:58 pm
02/13/18 9:58 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,127
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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triton thrasher  Online Content
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Posts: 7,127
scotland
You've got the famous "quicky-wear" nylon points heel.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725515
02/14/18 12:38 am
02/14/18 12:38 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
the old originals? they're all burnt up.

i bought dai ichi points and condensors from peter quick to install instead of the Boyer.

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

hope the system works better.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 02/14/18 12:39 am.

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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725524
02/14/18 1:39 am
02/14/18 1:39 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,636
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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BSA_WM20  Offline
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B
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,636
Sydney Australia
Check the cam bush very carefully.
If there is any up & down play, that will be amplified over the distance between the bush and the points cam,
The act of the valves pushing against the cam and then releasing pressure on it can cause the points to open & close at funny times.
I have had this problem twice and it took a long time to work out what it was.
The dirty bodge was to open the points to .020" on the cam with a point on it anc close down to 0.008" on the cam with the flat on it.
Then adjust the points plat to get the correct timing.

And duble ditto on the fast wear nylon rubbing block.
They are most likely the only ones you can get now days.
Originals were bakalite and only rarely required adjustment for wear.
The nylon ones required weekly adjustments and I have seen some melt at the pivot.
To be fair that bike was overheating.
These are car points and designed to be in a nice cool distributor not stuck in the crankcase of a stinking hot air cooled engine.

And do yourself a big favour, put a second pair of points, adjusted so they are not touching the cam in the other loacting place on the backing plate.
That way you will have a spare set.

Now to be fair, we ride long distances down here oft in really hot weather but I have had more than one set of them wear excessively on the pivot due to excessive heat, so keep it lubed.

Mount the cap on one of the coil mounting bolts where it will get some cooling air.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 02/14/18 1:41 am.

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Trevor
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725657
02/15/18 2:41 am
02/15/18 2:41 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
interesting on the cam bush. that's obvious in hindsight, but it never occurred to me until you mentioned it. i'll do some wiggling and see how it looks.

re the contact breaker rubbing block, i have never seen any made in bakelite. the nylon or plastic ones are the only ones i have ever come across for british stuff, although the points for the magneto in my ARD are bakelite, i believe.

i haven't run points seriously in a lot of years, as soon as i could afford my first Boyer, in fact. that was back when bad condensors were eating my points, and new condensors cost as much as a month's rent for me. i run some now in an old A65, but they were the first ones i'd messed with in a lot of years. putting these in will be interesting.

might put them in tomorrow. i'm backing up on projects, but the shop is due to warm up a bit so we'll see where we are.


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die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725673
02/15/18 9:02 am
02/15/18 9:02 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,637
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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Posts: 3,637
argyll. scotland, uk
i think it was the 4CA breaker plate had the bakelite heel,my 6CA had the nylon as well, that felt pad needs a drop of oil to stop the heel wearing real fast.
used to travel with a spare cap in my pocket, you either had very cheap rent or the cap man was gouging you!


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725684
02/15/18 12:04 pm
02/15/18 12:04 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,513
Aus
N
NickL Online content
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NickL  Online Content
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,513
Aus
Better off mounting the cap up by the coil.

Buy a 0.22uf 400v 105 deg c mkp polyprop cap and solder some leads on it, much better than this bike and car crap.

Typical

https://www.eBay.com.au/itm/CAP-SUP-Y2-PP-0-22UF-300VAC-RAD-R413N32204000M-Fnl/391973940170?hash=item5b4377abca:g:wbQAAOSwtGlZJIFZ

http://www.eBay.com.au/itm/2pcs-PHILIPS-BC-MKP376-0-22uF-0-22-F-0-22uF-630V-5-P-27-5mm-Capacitor/161234340950?hash=item258a50cc56:g:mm4AAMXQVT9TDHiu

Last edited by NickL; 02/15/18 12:08 pm.


Re: 441 [Re: gavin eisler] #725721
02/15/18 7:34 pm
02/15/18 7:34 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
Originally Posted by gavin eisler

used to travel with a spare cap in my pocket, you either had very cheap rent or the cap man was gouging you!


two Lucas capacitors were US$40, which was the cost of 40 loaves of bread, 80 packets of cigarettes, or 80 US gallons of gasoline.

at the time i shared a $160 house with three other students.

didn't know until i was told here on this forum how interchangeable capacitors were.


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die once.
Re: 441 [Re: NickL] #725722
02/15/18 7:35 pm
02/15/18 7:35 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
Originally Posted by NickL
Better off mounting the cap up by the coil.

Buy a 0.22uf 400v 105 deg c mkp polyprop cap and solder some leads on it, much better than this bike and car crap.

Typical

https://www.eBay.com.au/itm/CAP-SUP-Y2-PP-0-22UF-300VAC-RAD-R413N32204000M-Fnl/391973940170?hash=item5b4377abca:g:wbQAAOSwtGlZJIFZ

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2pcs-PHILIPS-BC-MKP376-0-22uF-0-22-F-0-22uF-630V-5-P-27-5mm-Capacitor/161234340950?hash=item258a50cc56:g:mm4AAMXQVT9TDHiu


looking . . .

i am exceptionally non-electronic. how do you decide which post to ground on one of these?


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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725728
02/15/18 8:40 pm
02/15/18 8:40 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 508
Ewing. NJ
E
edunham Online content
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edunham  Online Content
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E
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 508
Ewing. NJ
Kevin,
I prefer points and magnetos to electronic ignitions for a number of reasons. But one of them is visceral. When the advance bangs open on a Lucas Advance Unit, it feels like a big hand just started pushing you faster. You don't get that with most electronic ignitions. They advance in a much more linear fashion. Probably just as fast or faster, but they don't feel that way.
To avoid the quick wear heel issue, I buy old points plates with the original points on them at swap meets and on eBay. They are often cheap and the reason they are being sold is because the owners want electronic ignition, not because they are worn. They usually clean up just fine. I also either replace the springs in the advance units or bend the tabs out so that the springs pull back properly. Finally, I make sure the little felt for the cam is in place. I don't know why everyone used to pull them off. A little 3 & 1 oil on the felt (this goes for mags too) and on the advance unit helps the points hold their settings for a long time.
I was not a 441 fan when I was young. Twins and triples were all I was interested in. Then a few years ago I stumbled onto a T25, which led to a 441, which led to a B50. I love 'em all now (all on points- in fact, out of my 14 bikes, all are on points except my Trident and my '83 Honda which came with electronic ignition.).

Ed from

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725748
02/15/18 10:52 pm
02/15/18 10:52 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
i've kept all the mechanicals from my old morgo, humorously i could have used the 6CA plate from that T120 instead of buying a replacement one. i didn't realize that you could take a 6CA plate from a twin and just leave off one of the point sets. silly.

but i bought it from peter quick at bsa unit singles for US$11, so who's to complain? needed points anyway.

i messed with the AAU on my old morgo all the time. the cam was corroded from rust from the DPO, the little cam screws were all buggered up, the pins for the springs were worn so i had to wedge them out with pieces of beer can to hold a constant timing. i never had a gasket on the point cover so whenever it rained i had to loosen the cover and tip the bike to let the water run out before it would start.

once i stopped the springs from rattling mine had an on/off advance like you're describing, ed. i know a little more about them these days, so hopefully it will work a bit better for me.


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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725750
02/15/18 10:59 pm
02/15/18 10:59 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,637
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,637
argyll. scotland, uk
Re grounding cap, theres two types of cap commonly used in electronics, electrolytics and normal ones, electrolytics are always marked for polarity, - one end + the other , get this wrong and they go pop, normal ones dont care, so if you get a cap without the polarity marks its a fair bet its not electrolytic and it will wire either way round, if it has the marks wire neg to points/ coil connection, and plus to chassis if its brit style positive ground/ earth. Up by the coil keeps them cool, caps dont like heat. BITD I bought car capacitors and fitted them up by the coils, they were about £1.50 each, you were being robbed for Lucas stuff, although if you had a 4 CA or Dizzy type you would struggle to get anything else to fit, the 6 CA doesnt care cos the cap isnt part of the structure. just part of the circuit.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725756
02/15/18 11:32 pm
02/15/18 11:32 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
excellent. those things that nick linked to are cheap, and i can search on the specs to find similar things in america. looks like 22uf, lots of volts and heat resistance are the important parts.

years ago i rode my T120 across the american west with a buddy who had a 69 R60, with a magneto coil that was failing. somewhere in the oklahoma panhandle it finally died, and so we went into an auto parts place early in the morning and bought an ignition coil, tied it to the frame somewhere, and wired the magneto points to it. stuck another condensor on somewhere, too, i don;t remember where.

then we took off again, and the last i ever saw if him was as he disappeared into colorado headed for pueblo, while i took off across monument valley headed for phoenix.

nice thing about mechanicals is that you fix them mechanically, without digging into the epoxy to get intimate with the transistors.

of course, i dropped my own points as soon as i could afford EI.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725759
02/15/18 11:53 pm
02/15/18 11:53 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,513
Aus
N
NickL Online content
BritBike Forum member
NickL  Online Content
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N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,513
Aus
0.22uf MKP types.

They are used for AC suppression, have a very high dv/dt rating.

Usually sold as 'mains' style 220vac/400vdc rating but the dielectric Polypropylene film is the animal.
They are non polarised, get min 100 deg c and 400vdc wkg (working voltage) more can be better 630 or 1000vdc.
They are a bit on the big side but will last far longer than the car or bike things, plus they are a better arc quench.

This mob are in the 'states. https://www.eBay.com/itm/6X-AV-R46-x2-SH-MKP-275V-AC-0-22UF-Metallized-Polypropylene-Film-Capacitor-6pcs/222828042391?hash=item33e1961897:g:PQEAAOSwy6VZ3YOF

and this gang.....https://www.eBay.com/itm/x2-0-22uF-275VAC-20-Interference-Suppression-Polypropylene-CAP-Philips-MKP336-2/272873065989?epid=25006302965&hash=item3f88808e05:g:Rv8AAOSwN3xZ1BQI

It's too bloody hot here to do much. (just thought i'd mention that................).

Last edited by NickL; 02/16/18 12:08 am.


Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725789
02/16/18 10:49 am
02/16/18 10:49 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,637
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,637
argyll. scotland, uk
"looks like 22uf,"

Import point, its 0.22 uFarads , not 22 , easy mistake to make , a 22 is 100 times too much, and its u ( micro ) , not m ( Milli) getting this wrong puts you out by 1,000 times.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725818
02/16/18 5:20 pm
02/16/18 5:20 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
missed the decimal

we may have spring. thought i heard the peepers briefly day before yesterday

hyla crucifer they used to be, then tbey changed the genus to something i forget

Last edited by kevin roberts; 02/16/18 5:21 pm.

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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725863
02/17/18 12:17 am
02/17/18 12:17 am
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,415
Central Virginia
Lannis Online content

Life member
Lannis  Online Content

Life member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,415
Central Virginia
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
missed the decimal

we may have spring. thought i heard the peepers briefly day before yesterday

hyla crucifer they used to be, then tbey changed the genus to something i forget


I've been keeping track of "First Peepers" here at our place since 1994, because it can be a good predictor of "last front" and planting time.

Only once, in 2001, did peepers peep on February 15th. Latest date is March 10, in 2010. Sure enough, "last frost" in 2001 was 4/7, and was 5/15 in 2010 ....

Lannis


I'm like super lazy today. It's like normal lazy, but I'm wearing a cape.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725908
02/17/18 2:10 pm
02/17/18 2:10 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,815
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Online content
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GrandPaul  Online Content
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Posts: 6,815
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Those birds must watch channel 5 thru the neighbor's windows...


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Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725921
02/17/18 5:24 pm
02/17/18 5:24 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,656
ohio, usa
robin!

and a brown towhee.


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die once.
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