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Lucas Zener spec. #707095
09/03/17 2:04 am
09/03/17 2:04 am
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Steven A Offline OP
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Does any one know the current spec for the Lucas Zener. It is very easy to simulate them with a simple circuit.

[Linked Image]

The only question is how big to make the transistor. in this image the low power zener needs to be 13.8-0.6V

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Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #707099
09/03/17 2:40 am
09/03/17 2:40 am
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DMadigan Offline
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A 6 ampere transistor is not going to cut it. The early generators put out 120 Watts. Besides, these bikes are usually positive ground (although you can change it).

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: DMadigan] #707101
09/03/17 3:28 am
09/03/17 3:28 am
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Steven A Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
A 6 ampere transistor is not going to cut it.


That's why I am asking.

Originally Posted by DMadigan
The early generators put out 120 Watts.


Do you know what the later 3 phase types produced?

Originally Posted by DMadigan
Besides, these bikes are usually positive ground (although you can change it).


This is symmetrical, just run the way you want it with an isolated heat sink.

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #707104
09/03/17 3:53 am
09/03/17 3:53 am
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Jerry Roy Offline
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Amps times volts equals watts. (More or less, but close enough for government work) cool
120 watts divided by 12 V = 10 amps.
If your headlight is working, you lose that many watts, so the amps go down. But if your headlight burns out, the amps go up.
I don't like to run transistors close to their rated capacity, so 12 - 15 amps might be a better choice. Or bigger, it won't care.
With a good heat sink.
JR

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #707110
09/03/17 7:26 am
09/03/17 7:26 am
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Steven,

Originally Posted by Steven A
current spec for the Lucas Zener.

12~12.5A.

Lucas supplied a single Zener in parallel with the battery and rectifier even with the '69-on RM21 alternator (rated 10.5A @ 5,000 rpm). The "headlight working" is irrelevant because, certainly in GB, we've never had a headlamp-on-in-daylight legal requirement.

Because of original Zeners' current limitation, the RM23 (14.5A @ 5,000 rpm, single-phase) was supplied with two Zeners - one connected between each AC wire and 'earth'/'ground'.

Initial oe supplies of the 3-phase RM24 to the Co-op in '79 were the 'low-output' (10.5A @ 5,000 rpm) version, so Lucas continued to supply a single Zener (but now 'negative earth/ground') in parallel with battery and rectifier.

Nevertheless, the 'high-output' (14.5A @ 5,000 rpm) version was always available. For after-market fitting to 'positive earth/ground', high-output RM24 versions were supplied with two Zeners also to be connected in parallel with battery and rectifier. However, these Zeners had to be 'matched' for Volts and Amps, Lucas originally supplied these 'matched pairs' under a different part number from the single Zeners; when Lucas stopped supplying, John Carpenter at Mistral Engineering in GB set up a test rig and continued to supply 'matched' Zeners 'til he retired.

However, when the Co-op offered the high-output RM24 as an option, and oe on the electric-start twins, Lucas supplied a 'pack' of three Zeners for connection to the AC wires. I believe this 'pack' was something off-the-shelf from a completely different application.

Btw, risking telling you something you know already, Lucas considered a Zener 'within spec.' until it allowed DC to exceed 15.5V.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #707152
09/03/17 3:11 pm
09/03/17 3:11 pm
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quinten Offline
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wht am i missing, i dont see the point?

if the transistor is sized large enough

youre just moving the heat off the zener and onto the transistor.

where the transistor is working as a variable resistor.

... a power zener by its self is a simpler circuit p

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #707163
09/03/17 4:52 pm
09/03/17 4:52 pm
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Andy Higham Offline
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The best and most reliable way is to use a Reg/Rec from any permanent magnet alternator Japanese bike. The two alternator wires connect to two of the three ac connections (usually yellow) pos to red neg to black. This also removes the fragile plate type rectifier


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: quinten] #707234
09/04/17 6:57 am
09/04/17 6:57 am
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Steven A Offline OP
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Because the zeners are expensive and seem to be "going away".

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #707284
09/04/17 4:21 pm
09/04/17 4:21 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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Zeners are not "going away" but the need for high power zeners as regulators has been replaced by more sophisticated circuits. Instead of using a zener, you could use a linear voltage regulator such as this 13.7 volt 1.5 ampere:
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/389/pb137-974199.pdf
to drive the regulating transistor.
A more sophisticated circuit would use a switching driver to turn on a (presumably) IGBT during the regulating phase so the voltage drop across it is minimal, reducing heat in the transistor.
Shunt regulators are the worst as they turn on when the voltage reaches the set point (because they use SCRs) which means you loose all the power from the rest of the cycle, not just the portion that exceeds the limit.
In any case it will need a heat sink since the excess power is dissipated by heat.
Not all regulators from Japanese bikes are "plug and play". Some need a sense input. You should check on line forums for which bikes have problems with their regulators.

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: NickL] #707441
09/05/17 9:41 pm
09/05/17 9:41 pm
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Steven A Offline OP
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Originally Posted by NickL
The transistor will spend a lot of it's time in the semiconducting state so it's dissipation will be large.
The use of the good old 2n3055 would be a better bet but even then it'll get very hot. (IE.5 volts x 5 amps = 25watts)
Linear operation of any transistor generates heat. Pulse width modulation is far better but gets more complicated.
I posted a circuit for a single/bi phase regulator ages ago but as Andy says, you are better off
buying a ubiquitous regulator most of which use thyristors/scrs and work on the AC side as a shunt rather than on DC.
These are very good. (Just link 2 yellow wires together for single/bi phase operation.)


http://www.eBay.com.au/itm/5-Way-Regulator-Rectifier-Male-Plug-Connector-Fit-For-Honda-CB400-CBR600-DA-/162516257547?epid=907545014&hash=item25d6b94b0b:g:FD8AAOxy-gBR~G~e
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Voltage-Regulator-Rectifier-For-Honda-CBR600-F2-F3-CBR900RR-SC28-CBR400-NSR125-/172671240214?hash=item2834020816:g:LdsAAOSwo4pYEXPM



So this has a three phase rectifier that can be used single phase?

[Linked Image]

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: NickL] #707477
09/06/17 6:02 am
09/06/17 6:02 am
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Steven A Offline OP
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Originally Posted by NickL
Correct, you can either link 2 of the 3 yellows together or cut 1 off.
Pos == Red
Neg = Green

Nick


Very good, I'll keep one on the shelf. Too cheap to pass up.

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: NickL] #713503
11/01/17 9:14 pm
11/01/17 9:14 pm
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Steven A Offline OP
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Originally Posted by NickL
Correct, you can either link 2 of the 3 yellows together or cut 1 off.
Pos == Red
Neg = Green

Nick


Hi Nick. I have one on the bench. Single phase in as instructed, about 20V p-p. Out put is across 12 Ohms but with no battery present. I assume you need a battery across the output to see these things work.

[Linked Image]

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #713637
11/02/17 8:06 pm
11/02/17 8:06 pm
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The latest Reg/Rec units for modern bikes are now series instead of shunt, this open circuits the windings instead of shorting them. This creates less heat and less drag


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Andy Higham] #713662
11/02/17 10:48 pm
11/02/17 10:48 pm
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Steven A Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Andy Higham
The latest Reg/Rec units for modern bikes are now series instead of shunt, this open circuits the windings instead of shorting them. This creates less heat and less drag



I was wondering about that very thing. Opinion was divided in my lab but I think you are right.

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: NickL] #713673
11/03/17 12:31 am
11/03/17 12:31 am
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quinten Offline
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Originally Posted by Andy Higham
The latest Reg/Rec units for modern bikes are now series instead of shunt, this open circuits the windings instead of shorting them. This creates less heat and less drag


there is minimal drag when the stator is shorted/shunted ... .
why ? because no electromotive work is ask to be done .
there is no electrical circuit , there is no end of any wire in which to measure a voltage differential ... its magnetic

there is just this lump of copper and iron and the eddy current heat , same as normal .
nothing extra in the way of heat (drag) is coming from the induced magnetic field
because no work is being done .
the stator isn't
fighting the rotor so much ,
because the stator is safely unloaded and sort of freewheeling on minimal magnetic inertia ... out of phase with the rotor .

conversely , when a stator is open-shunted the induced open voltages can climb to levels higher
than the magnet insulation wire can handle ... open shunting is for stators specifically designed to handle the application

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: quinten] #713698
11/03/17 7:30 am
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Steven A Offline OP
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Originally Posted by quinten
Originally Posted by Andy Higham
The latest Reg/Rec units for modern bikes are now series instead of shunt, this open circuits the windings instead of shorting them. This creates less heat and less drag


there is minimal drag when the stator is shorted/shunted ... .
why ? because no electromotive work is ask to be done .
there is no electrical circuit , there is no end of any wire in which to measure a voltage differential ... its magnetic

there is just this lump of copper and iron and the eddy current heat , same as normal .
nothing extra in the way of heat (drag) is coming from the induced magnetic field
because no work is being done .
the stator isn't
fighting the rotor so much ,
because the stator is safely unloaded and sort of freewheeling on minimal magnetic inertia ... out of phase with the rotor .

conversely , when a stator is open-shunted the induced open voltages can climb to levels higher
than the magnet insulation wire can handle ... open shunting is for stators specifically designed to handle the application


Not so sure that shorting the windings does not cause drag. I have a vague memory of doing this in a lab and there was an awful lot of resistant to rotation. It's to do with magnetically generated reverse torque.

A linear analogue is dropping a magnet down a metal tube. It goes pretty slow despite gravity.

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #713730
11/03/17 4:29 pm
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"there is no electrical circuit" There is an electrical circuit, the shunted winding is a circuit.
Try this experiment, take a small permanent magnet electric motor and turn the shaft with your fingers. You will feel the pull of the magnet on the armature poles. Now short the terminals together and you fill feel it is harder to turn. An electric motor and an alternator are essentially the same thing.
It is common practice to use shunt resistors including zero ohms and to brake a motor


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #713807
11/04/17 12:55 pm
11/04/17 12:55 pm
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FRANCE- DINARD -BRITTANY
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Hi,I had follow that thread with great interest , as the problem had been opened few times ago on another Norton forum by a canadian specialist , about using the lithium battery on our bikes , he said that most of classic rec/reg either over charged or under charged , and that the solution was the series modern rec/reg such as sh775.........???

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: marinatlas] #719288
12/18/17 8:59 pm
12/18/17 8:59 pm
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Steven A Offline OP
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Originally Posted by marinatlas
Hi,I had follow that thread with great interest , as the problem had been opened few times ago on another Norton forum by a canadian specialist , about using the lithium battery on our bikes , he said that most of classic rec/reg either over charged or under charged , and that the solution was the series modern rec/reg such as sh775.........???


Yes

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #719291
12/18/17 9:02 pm
12/18/17 9:02 pm
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Steven A Offline OP
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The unit in action. As advised there is a resistor between the charger input and the AC source. Scope traces are the input.

[img]https://plus.google.com/photos/1034...00994286529500482?authkey=CL_f8u2DmP-LDg[/img]

[img]https://plus.google.com/photos/1034...00994289935810786?authkey=CL_f8u2DmP-LDg[/img]

[img]https://plus.google.com/photos/1034...00994286884019506?authkey=CL_f8u2DmP-LDg[/img]

[img]https://plus.google.com/photos/1034...00994287300364978?authkey=CL_f8u2DmP-LDg[/img]

The image function doesn't seem to like Google+.

Last edited by Steven A; 12/18/17 9:07 pm.
Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: marinatlas] #719292
12/18/17 9:05 pm
12/18/17 9:05 pm
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Steven A Offline OP
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Originally Posted by marinatlas
Hi,I had follow that thread with great interest , as the problem had been opened few times ago on another Norton forum by a canadian specialist , about using the lithium battery on our bikes , he said that most of classic rec/reg either over charged or under charged , and that the solution was the series modern rec/reg such as sh775.........???


Does the SH775 reliably charge at 13.8v? I want to use a data logger that only tolerates 14V max.

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #719297
12/18/17 9:16 pm
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Steven A Offline OP
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And an overview of regulation types.

http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/reg.html

Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #719298
12/18/17 9:19 pm
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Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #719702
12/22/17 10:50 am
12/22/17 10:50 am
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Originally Posted by Steven A
Originally Posted by marinatlas
Hi,I had follow that thread with great interest , as the problem had been opened few times ago on another Norton forum by a canadian specialist , about using the lithium battery on our bikes , he said that most of classic rec/reg either over charged or under charged , and that the solution was the series modern rec/reg such as sh775.........???


Does the SH775 reliably charge at 13.8v? I want to use a data logger that only tolerates 14V max.


A fully charged 12v battery is actually 13.8v, to charge the battery the voltage needs to be above this voltage


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Lucas Zener spec. [Re: Steven A] #719732
12/22/17 5:55 pm
12/22/17 5:55 pm
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Originally Posted by Steven A
Originally Posted by marinatlas
Hi,I had follow that thread with great interest , as the problem had been opened few times ago on another Norton forum by a canadian specialist , about using the lithium battery on our bikes , he said that most of classic rec/reg either over charged or under charged , and that the solution was the series modern rec/reg such as sh775.........???


Does the SH775 reliably charge at 13.8v? I want to use a data logger that only tolerates 14V max.

Dc to dc
Buck converter for data logger (less than one dollar)
https://www.eBay.com/itm/DC-DC-Buck...-3-3V-5V-9V-12V-24V-Module-/112472493337
[Linked Image]

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