BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
  JWood Auction  
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Photo posting tutorial

Member Spotlight
Lancs Tiger
Lancs Tiger
Wigan, Lancs, England
Posts: 30
Joined: July 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
213 registered members (57nortonmodel77), 1,710 guests, and 565 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Gilly, XTINCT, Bruce Roberts, Brian Ellery, Jon Andrews
9958 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
btour 191
koan58 100
Stuart 84
NickL 72
Popular Topics(Views)
438,248 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums33
Topics65,286
Posts632,373
Members9,958
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#713114 - 10/29/17 8:17 pm Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,403
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,403
argyll. scotland, uk
Cut and pasted from another place.
"I know that I have seen this topic, to some extent, on here before. At our BMAC (British Motorcycle Association of Colorado) meeting yesterday our president brought in a handout for the members on the subject - in print. "Magical Mystery Fluid Revealed", I will just touch on the highlights to keep it short. In 2007 "Machinist's Workshop Mag. tm" published information on various penetrating oils including subjective tests of many of the popular penetrants. The following list is the results of their test with the control being the torque in foot pounds required to remove a nut from a bolt in a "scientifically rusted" environment.
Penetrant ------------------------------------------ Average Load
None ------------------------------------------------ 516 Ft. Lbs.
WD-40 ---------------------------------------------- 238 Ft. Lbs.
PB Blaster ----------------------------------------- 214 Ft. Lbs.
Liquid Wrench ------------------------------------ 127 Ft. Lbs.
Kano Kroil ------------------------------------------ 106 Ft. Lbs.
ATF*/Acetone Mix --------------------------------- 53 Ft. Lbs.

ATF= Automatic Transmission Fluid

The ATF/Acetone mix was a "home brewed" mix of 50/50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone which proved to be better than any of the commercial brands of penetrant on a removing a nut rusted onto a bolt. No matter which penetrant is used they all require a period of time to wick down into the threads, but because acetone has an extremely low dynamic viscosity, it's thin, it gets into the threads quicker than the other products with the ATF following shortly behind for lubrication. Expecting comments!!!"


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!
Membership Type! Free
Member
Premium
Member
Premium Life
Member
Vendor
Member
Site
Sponsor
Recognition No Premium Member Premium Life member (5 years) Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
Post commercial threads No No No Yes Yes
Custom title No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Upload avatar & photos No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Link avatar & photos Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Private Message Storage: 10 100 100 100 100
Length of signatures 255 600 600 600 600
Removes this very advert island between post 1&2 No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Price Free $12.90/year $105.00 No End
$55.00/5 years
$210.00/year
($17.50/month)
Email
Click on button >>
  Premium Member Premium Life member Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
#713122 - 10/29/17 9:16 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,152
Swan Offline
BritBike Forum member
Swan  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,152
Winona, MN
Qualitatively, I concur with the results. ATF/acetone or Kroil are my first choices for frozen hardware.


1966 Triton
1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star
1966 Triumph Bonneville
#713124 - 10/29/17 9:28 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,048
Peter R Online content
BritBike Forum member
Peter R  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,048
Netherlands
I tried the ATF/acetone mix on a seized piston of my Benelli, unfortunately, it did not work, and I had to resort to more drastic measures, in spite of the fact that I let it soak for more than two weeks. frown


Peter.
1974 Commando 850
1972 Trident T150T
1961 Goldie DBD34
1969 Benelli 250 sport special
#713125 - 10/29/17 9:35 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,403
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,403
argyll. scotland, uk
I mind Swans epic unseizing of the Goldstar, sometimes snake oil is not enough.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#713231 - 10/30/17 5:41 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 314
Dibnah Offline
BritBike Forum member
Dibnah  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 314
UK

#713234 - 10/30/17 6:12 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,276
kevin roberts Online content
BritBike Forum member
kevin roberts  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,276
ohio, usa
well, i didn't have any ATF, so an hour ago i poured a cupful of acetone and power steering fluid into the plug hole of my seized-up 69 starfire.

ATF and power steering fluid were interchangeable in identical honda and sterling power steering pumps, so we'll see whether they behave similarly in a stuck cylinder.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#713415 - 10/31/17 8:53 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler]  
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 320
Fetch Online content
BritBike Forum member
Fetch  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 320
New Jersey
I had no idea WD40 was that ineffective as a penetrating lubricant, like wise I did not realize how effective an Acetone/ATF cocktail is. Thanks for the vry informative post......I feel wiser already!

#713446 - 11/01/17 4:21 am Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Fetch]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,979
Magnetoman Online content
BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,979
U.S.
Originally Posted by Fetch
I did not realize how effective an Acetone/ATF cocktail is.
Read this post before you drink the acetone/ATF Kool-Aid.

#713449 - 11/01/17 6:56 am Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Magnetoman]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,897
triton thrasher Online content
BritBike Forum member
triton thrasher  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,897
scotland
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Read this post before you drink the acetone/ATF Kool-Aid.


The time you spent writing that could have been spent trying it.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#713454 - 11/01/17 10:12 am Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,108
Hillbilly bike Online content
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,108
Running from demons in WNY
In 50 years of working on my junker cars/trucks I've found all brands of penetrating oil is more or less useless on fasteners with more than very slight rust...Kroil has as nice smell when burned off with the oxy torch. When you soak a fastener with the oil and it finally unscrews are the threads dry like I always see?..Piston stuck in the cylinder? Car guys say by diesel or kerosene works well...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#713469 - 11/01/17 2:22 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: triton thrasher]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,979
Magnetoman Online content
BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,979
U.S.
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
The time you spent writing that could have been spent trying it.
It's not that simple. If I used acetone/ATF on a random rusted fastener how would I know the fastener wouldn't have been released with the same torque had I not used the acetone/ATF? How would I know it wouldn't have been released with even less (or more) torque had I used Kroil instead?

Kroil on the outside of a rusted fastener picks up a reddish coloration, i.e. a chemical reaction with the rust is taking place. That doesn't happen with either acetone or the one brand and type of ATF I have in my garage. For the reasons I gave in that other post, without a chemical reaction I don't see a plausible reason why a substance would work. Without having a reason to expect that acetone/ATF would work any better on a rusted fastener than, say, sprinkling talcum powder on it there's no reason for me to try to devise an experiment that might yield results I could rely on.

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
When you soak a fastener with the oil and it finally unscrews are the threads dry like I always see?
The contact area under a bolt head is a significant fraction of that of the threads. If penetrating oil only succeeded in removing the rust there, without even reaching the threads, it would significantly reduce the torque. Also, because rust requires oxygen to form it "grows" into the threads from the outside in so it will be thickest at the top and so penetrating oil only has to work on the first few threads to significantly reduce the torque.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 11/01/17 2:31 pm.
#713489 - 11/01/17 6:39 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Magnetoman]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,108
Hillbilly bike Online content
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,108
Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
The contact area under a bolt head is a significant fraction of that of the threads. If penetrating oil only succeeded in removing the rust there, without even reaching the threads, it would significantly reduce the torque. Also, because rust requires oxygen to form it "grows" into the threads from the outside in so it will be thickest at the top and so penetrating oil only has to work on the first few threads to significantly reduce the torque.

You must not live in the north east grin Let me be more clear...when and if the nut/bolt unscrews, there is no signs of oil on the threads or the surface the fastener was up against...This isn't usually a problem on bikes. but I often work on older 4x4 stuff...The best improvement on vehicles I have seen is in the last 15 years the use of anaerobic thread sealers on suspension and drive lines by some manufacturers....


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#713496 - 11/01/17 7:22 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Hillbilly bike]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,979
Magnetoman Online content
BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,979
U.S.
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
You must not live in the north east grin
If I did I'd have to deal with rusted nuts and bolts all the time, costing me a fortune in bottles of Kroil...

#713519 - 11/01/17 11:10 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Hillbilly bike]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,667
Jon W. Whitley Online content
Jon W. Whitley  Online Content



Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,667
Vermont
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
When you soak a fastener with the oil and it finally unscrews are the threads dry like I always see?.



Yes, I have noticed that too and I have dealt with quite a few lately.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1970 BSA A65F 650 - Project

#713620 - 11/02/17 5:12 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 293
57nortonmodel77 Online content
BritBike Forum member
57nortonmodel77  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 293
Concord Township, Ohio
For commercially bought products, I like Kroil, but have had better success with the 50/50 mix of acetone & FLM/ATF.
My first test was removing a set of aluminum Offenhauser heads off a cast iron 1950 flat head Ford. Forty eight nuts as I recall. I used a number of commercially available chemicals, WD-40 was the worst, but to be fair, it was designed as a water displacement (WD). In the end, some still wouldnt budge, on those, careful application of heat to the nuts did the trick, but with aluminum directly below, I had to be very carefull of the temperature range.
Perhaps not collegiate grade scientific testing, but real world guy in the garage testing, as most of us here are.

As a side note, if you have brake cleaner in your garage, NEVER use it on anything you will be heating with a torch!!!
I dont know any chemists to confirm, or de-bunk this, but why take the chance:

http://www.brewracingframes.com/safety-alert-brake-cleaner--phosgene-gas.html


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1950 Norton Model 7:
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
#713710 - 11/03/17 2:14 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Magnetoman]  
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 320
Fetch Online content
BritBike Forum member
Fetch  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 320
New Jersey
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Fetch
I did not realize how effective an Acetone/ATF cocktail is.
Read this post before you drink the acetone/ATF Kool-Aid.


Ok, so I read it. There is a problem flaw in your assumption/observation. Extract from your post:

"Anyway, to free rusty steel fasteners (or piston rings) you need a penetrating fluid with a low enough viscosity and surface tension that it can penetrate through the microcracks in the rust. To some extent ATF in acetone satisfies this. But, you also need an ingredient that chemically "reduces" the iron oxide, i.e. breaks the Fe-O chemical bonds to "dissolve" the rust. Even if a fluid makes it through the microcracks to displace the air in those cracks, unless the oxide bonds are broken the fastener will be held by the still-present oxide with the same strength as before so the presence of a lubricant in the microcracks won't do any good."

You agree the cocktail will penetrate the "microcracks" but then you say you need to "dissolve the rust" or the "the fastener will be held by the still present oxide WITH THE SAME STRENGTH as before"

So I rung up my cousin who is a retired Chemical engineer and scary kinda garage magician when it comes to stuff like this. His reply, "The specific gravity of the Acetone allows it to carry the AFT into all sorts of places, the ATF is a sufficient friction reducer......if it doesn't work, heat it up or drill it out.


Last edited by Fetch; 11/03/17 3:49 pm.
#713719 - 11/03/17 3:52 pm Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Fetch]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,979
Magnetoman Online content
BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,979
U.S.
Originally Posted by Fetch
here is a problem flaw in your assumption/observation....
So I rung up my cousin who is a retired Chemical engineer and scary kinda garage magician when it comes to stuff like this. His reply, "The specific gravity of the Acetone can carry the AFT into all sorts of places, the ATF is a sufficient friction reducer......if it doesn't work, heat it up or drill it out.
Sorry, but your garage magician cousin is quite wrong. As any chemical engineer should know, specific gravity has nothing to do with the ability of a fluid to penetrate cracks. Viscosity and surface tension do, both of which are unrelated to a fluid's specific gravity.

Heat certainly will help thanks to differential thermal contraction creating additional microcracks, and any substance that reduces friction will help after a fastener starts to move. However, these are red herrings because the issue is what properties a penetrating fluid has to have in order to reduce the required torque all by itself.

Look, anyone who wants to believe acetone/ATF works, that's fine by me. It seems to me that all that need be said on the topic has been so it's a good time to let it go.


Moderated by  Alan_nc 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.206s Queries: 15 (0.009s) Memory: 0.9271 MB (Peak: 1.1963 MB) Zlib disabled. Server Time: 2017-11-22 20:14:20 UTC