BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
Jwood & co JRC Engineering dealers Jwood & co
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
Barb
Barb
Western Washington State (USA)
Posts: 1,179
Joined: December 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
33 registered members (Andy Higham), 220 guests, and 421 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Gaspare, eberhard, Norman Woollons, LandoLando, MikeA
10256 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Stuart 75
Lannis 66
Popular Topics(Views)
608,497 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics67,110
Posts651,229
Members10,256
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest #713114
10/29/17 8:17 pm
10/29/17 8:17 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,867
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,867
argyll. scotland, uk
Cut and pasted from another place.
"I know that I have seen this topic, to some extent, on here before. At our BMAC (British Motorcycle Association of Colorado) meeting yesterday our president brought in a handout for the members on the subject - in print. "Magical Mystery Fluid Revealed", I will just touch on the highlights to keep it short. In 2007 "Machinist's Workshop Mag. tm" published information on various penetrating oils including subjective tests of many of the popular penetrants. The following list is the results of their test with the control being the torque in foot pounds required to remove a nut from a bolt in a "scientifically rusted" environment.
Penetrant ------------------------------------------ Average Load
None ------------------------------------------------ 516 Ft. Lbs.
WD-40 ---------------------------------------------- 238 Ft. Lbs.
PB Blaster ----------------------------------------- 214 Ft. Lbs.
Liquid Wrench ------------------------------------ 127 Ft. Lbs.
Kano Kroil ------------------------------------------ 106 Ft. Lbs.
ATF*/Acetone Mix --------------------------------- 53 Ft. Lbs.

ATF= Automatic Transmission Fluid

The ATF/Acetone mix was a "home brewed" mix of 50/50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone which proved to be better than any of the commercial brands of penetrant on a removing a nut rusted onto a bolt. No matter which penetrant is used they all require a period of time to wick down into the threads, but because acetone has an extremely low dynamic viscosity, it's thin, it gets into the threads quicker than the other products with the ATF following shortly behind for lubrication. Expecting comments!!!"


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713122
10/29/17 9:16 pm
10/29/17 9:16 pm
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,153
Winona, MN
Swan Offline

BritBike Forum member
Swan  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,153
Winona, MN
Qualitatively, I concur with the results. ATF/acetone or Kroil are my first choices for frozen hardware.


1966 Triton
1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star
1966 Triumph Bonneville
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713124
10/29/17 9:28 pm
10/29/17 9:28 pm
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,161
Netherlands
Peter R Offline

BritBike Forum member
Peter R  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,161
Netherlands
I tried the ATF/acetone mix on a seized piston of my Benelli, unfortunately, it did not work, and I had to resort to more drastic measures, in spite of the fact that I let it soak for more than two weeks. frown


Peter.
1974 Commando 850
1972 Trident T150T
1961 Goldie DBD34
1969 Benelli 250 sport special
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713125
10/29/17 9:35 pm
10/29/17 9:35 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,867
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,867
argyll. scotland, uk
I mind Swans epic unseizing of the Goldstar, sometimes snake oil is not enough.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713231
10/30/17 5:41 pm
10/30/17 5:41 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 451
UK
D
Dibnah Offline
BritBike Forum member
Dibnah  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 451
UK

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713234
10/30/17 6:12 pm
10/30/17 6:12 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,913
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,913
ohio, usa
well, i didn't have any ATF, so an hour ago i poured a cupful of acetone and power steering fluid into the plug hole of my seized-up 69 starfire.

ATF and power steering fluid were interchangeable in identical honda and sterling power steering pumps, so we'll see whether they behave similarly in a stuck cylinder.


live every day.
die once.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713415
10/31/17 8:53 pm
10/31/17 8:53 pm
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 348
New Jersey
F
Fetch Offline
BritBike Forum member
Fetch  Offline
BritBike Forum member
F
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 348
New Jersey
I had no idea WD40 was that ineffective as a penetrating lubricant, like wise I did not realize how effective an Acetone/ATF cocktail is. Thanks for the vry informative post......I feel wiser already!

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Fetch] #713446
11/01/17 4:21 am
11/01/17 4:21 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,425
U.S.
Magnetoman Offline

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,425
U.S.
Originally Posted by Fetch
I did not realize how effective an Acetone/ATF cocktail is.
Read this post before you drink the acetone/ATF Kool-Aid.

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Magnetoman] #713449
11/01/17 6:56 am
11/01/17 6:56 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,418
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
BritBike Forum member
triton thrasher  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,418
scotland
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Read this post before you drink the acetone/ATF Kool-Aid.


The time you spent writing that could have been spent trying it.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713454
11/01/17 10:12 am
11/01/17 10:12 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,639
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,639
Running from demons in WNY
In 50 years of working on my junker cars/trucks I've found all brands of penetrating oil is more or less useless on fasteners with more than very slight rust...Kroil has as nice smell when burned off with the oxy torch. When you soak a fastener with the oil and it finally unscrews are the threads dry like I always see?..Piston stuck in the cylinder? Car guys say by diesel or kerosene works well...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: triton thrasher] #713469
11/01/17 2:22 pm
11/01/17 2:22 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,425
U.S.
Magnetoman Offline

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,425
U.S.
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
The time you spent writing that could have been spent trying it.
It's not that simple. If I used acetone/ATF on a random rusted fastener how would I know the fastener wouldn't have been released with the same torque had I not used the acetone/ATF? How would I know it wouldn't have been released with even less (or more) torque had I used Kroil instead?

Kroil on the outside of a rusted fastener picks up a reddish coloration, i.e. a chemical reaction with the rust is taking place. That doesn't happen with either acetone or the one brand and type of ATF I have in my garage. For the reasons I gave in that other post, without a chemical reaction I don't see a plausible reason why a substance would work. Without having a reason to expect that acetone/ATF would work any better on a rusted fastener than, say, sprinkling talcum powder on it there's no reason for me to try to devise an experiment that might yield results I could rely on.

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
When you soak a fastener with the oil and it finally unscrews are the threads dry like I always see?
The contact area under a bolt head is a significant fraction of that of the threads. If penetrating oil only succeeded in removing the rust there, without even reaching the threads, it would significantly reduce the torque. Also, because rust requires oxygen to form it "grows" into the threads from the outside in so it will be thickest at the top and so penetrating oil only has to work on the first few threads to significantly reduce the torque.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 11/01/17 2:31 pm.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Magnetoman] #713489
11/01/17 6:39 pm
11/01/17 6:39 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,639
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,639
Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
The contact area under a bolt head is a significant fraction of that of the threads. If penetrating oil only succeeded in removing the rust there, without even reaching the threads, it would significantly reduce the torque. Also, because rust requires oxygen to form it "grows" into the threads from the outside in so it will be thickest at the top and so penetrating oil only has to work on the first few threads to significantly reduce the torque.

You must not live in the north east grin Let me be more clear...when and if the nut/bolt unscrews, there is no signs of oil on the threads or the surface the fastener was up against...This isn't usually a problem on bikes. but I often work on older 4x4 stuff...The best improvement on vehicles I have seen is in the last 15 years the use of anaerobic thread sealers on suspension and drive lines by some manufacturers....


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Hillbilly bike] #713496
11/01/17 7:22 pm
11/01/17 7:22 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,425
U.S.
Magnetoman Offline

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,425
U.S.
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
You must not live in the north east grin
If I did I'd have to deal with rusted nuts and bolts all the time, costing me a fortune in bottles of Kroil...

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Hillbilly bike] #713519
11/01/17 11:10 pm
11/01/17 11:10 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,966
Vermont
Jon W. Whitley Offline

BritBike Forum member
Jon W. Whitley  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,966
Vermont
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
When you soak a fastener with the oil and it finally unscrews are the threads dry like I always see?.



Yes, I have noticed that too and I have dealt with quite a few lately.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713620
11/02/17 5:12 pm
11/02/17 5:12 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 329
Concord Township, Ohio
57nortonmodel77 Offline
BritBike Forum member
57nortonmodel77  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 329
Concord Township, Ohio
For commercially bought products, I like Kroil, but have had better success with the 50/50 mix of acetone & FLM/ATF.
My first test was removing a set of aluminum Offenhauser heads off a cast iron 1950 flat head Ford. Forty eight nuts as I recall. I used a number of commercially available chemicals, WD-40 was the worst, but to be fair, it was designed as a water displacement (WD). In the end, some still wouldnt budge, on those, careful application of heat to the nuts did the trick, but with aluminum directly below, I had to be very carefull of the temperature range.
Perhaps not collegiate grade scientific testing, but real world guy in the garage testing, as most of us here are.

As a side note, if you have brake cleaner in your garage, NEVER use it on anything you will be heating with a torch!!!
I dont know any chemists to confirm, or de-bunk this, but why take the chance:

http://www.brewracingframes.com/safety-alert-brake-cleaner--phosgene-gas.html


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1948 Norton 500T Trials bike
1950 Norton Model 7
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc Desert sled
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Magnetoman] #713710
11/03/17 2:14 pm
11/03/17 2:14 pm
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 348
New Jersey
F
Fetch Offline
BritBike Forum member
Fetch  Offline
BritBike Forum member
F
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 348
New Jersey
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Fetch
I did not realize how effective an Acetone/ATF cocktail is.
Read this post before you drink the acetone/ATF Kool-Aid.


Ok, so I read it. There is a problem flaw in your assumption/observation. Extract from your post:

"Anyway, to free rusty steel fasteners (or piston rings) you need a penetrating fluid with a low enough viscosity and surface tension that it can penetrate through the microcracks in the rust. To some extent ATF in acetone satisfies this. But, you also need an ingredient that chemically "reduces" the iron oxide, i.e. breaks the Fe-O chemical bonds to "dissolve" the rust. Even if a fluid makes it through the microcracks to displace the air in those cracks, unless the oxide bonds are broken the fastener will be held by the still-present oxide with the same strength as before so the presence of a lubricant in the microcracks won't do any good."

You agree the cocktail will penetrate the "microcracks" but then you say you need to "dissolve the rust" or the "the fastener will be held by the still present oxide WITH THE SAME STRENGTH as before"

So I rung up my cousin who is a retired Chemical engineer and scary kinda garage magician when it comes to stuff like this. His reply, "The specific gravity of the Acetone allows it to carry the AFT into all sorts of places, the ATF is a sufficient friction reducer......if it doesn't work, heat it up or drill it out.


Last edited by Fetch; 11/03/17 3:49 pm.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Fetch] #713719
11/03/17 3:52 pm
11/03/17 3:52 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,425
U.S.
Magnetoman Offline

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,425
U.S.
Originally Posted by Fetch
here is a problem flaw in your assumption/observation....
So I rung up my cousin who is a retired Chemical engineer and scary kinda garage magician when it comes to stuff like this. His reply, "The specific gravity of the Acetone can carry the AFT into all sorts of places, the ATF is a sufficient friction reducer......if it doesn't work, heat it up or drill it out.
Sorry, but your garage magician cousin is quite wrong. As any chemical engineer should know, specific gravity has nothing to do with the ability of a fluid to penetrate cracks. Viscosity and surface tension do, both of which are unrelated to a fluid's specific gravity.

Heat certainly will help thanks to differential thermal contraction creating additional microcracks, and any substance that reduces friction will help after a fastener starts to move. However, these are red herrings because the issue is what properties a penetrating fluid has to have in order to reduce the required torque all by itself.

Look, anyone who wants to believe acetone/ATF works, that's fine by me. It seems to me that all that need be said on the topic has been so it's a good time to let it go.

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #718965
12/16/17 3:19 am
12/16/17 3:19 am
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 336
NJ USA
M
Mori55 Online content
BritBike Forum member
Mori55  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
M
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 336
NJ USA
I worked on bridges for 40 years as a ironworker. And we dealt with old rusted bolts and pins. They were big say 1 1/4 by 6 “ or bigger. usually rusted corroded. Always tried to drive them out by hand or old river guns. Heat was last resort. But I swear by pb blast. I’ve seen 6” bolts that were spraye on one side that had the fluid come out the other side after awhile. These were bolts we couldn’t budge with 16lb beaters until we used the pb blast.

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #718980
12/16/17 11:57 am
12/16/17 11:57 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,616
UK Berks
A
AngloBike Online content
BritBike Forum member
AngloBike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
A
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,616
UK Berks
I watched a tv programme where they unseized an engine (head off I think) by heating either oil or diesel on a gas ring until it was very hot and then poured it into the cylinder. Probably similar to the gold star technique

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #718982
12/16/17 12:12 pm
12/16/17 12:12 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,841
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

BritBike Forum member
Allan Gill  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,841
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Interesting how this old thread has resurfaced, but ok.

I fail to see how acetone will help with de-rusting anything to be quite honest. Apart from it providing an accelerant if heated and lowering the viscosity of the ATF it’s being mixed with, it will have mostly evaporated before the ATF had worked between the bolt and nut.

Someone mentioned the flammability of brake cleaner, well yes it works as a solvent so remove grease and oil’s to stop the disk rusting in storage. However because it is a solvent it will evaporate in atmospheric temperatures (over a time) and because it is a solvent it has a very low flash point.


In the garage we used to use heat and maintenance fluid (like WD 40) to remove stubborn bolts, or in a place where heat would cause much bigger problems (like heating up a ball joint with grease inside) I would either....
Grind the top of the stud and nut until they were flush and shiny, or grind/cut through one face on the nut, whack with a chisel and the nut would spread leaving you able to wind the nut off... in that instance causing minimal damage to the bolt part.


beerchug
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #719036
12/16/17 8:35 pm
12/16/17 8:35 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,913
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,913
ohio, usa
my starfire is going on six weeks with acetone and power steering fluid. i checked it yesterday, still stuck.

maybe i'll pour in a can of coca cola and see what the phosphoric acid will do.


live every day.
die once.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: kevin roberts] #719094
12/17/17 1:28 pm
12/17/17 1:28 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,639
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,639
Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
my starfire is going on six weeks with acetone and power steering fluid. i checked it yesterday, still stuck.

maybe i'll pour in a can of coca cola and see what the phosphoric acid will do.


It probably has a spun bearing and bent connecting rod grin.. Get that oil out of the cylinder,buy some liquid 100 percent lye drain cleaner and pour it in...Lye will eventually dissolve the aluminum piston and clean the steel bore.....It will also corrode an aluminum rod and head but at least the piston isn't stuck...

Last edited by Hillbilly bike; 12/17/17 1:35 pm.

650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #719098
12/17/17 2:01 pm
12/17/17 2:01 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,327
Scotland
kommando Offline
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,327
Scotland
I would go coke first as that attacks rust and aluminium oxide, if that does not work then go more drastic.

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #719100
12/17/17 2:18 pm
12/17/17 2:18 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,913
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,913
ohio, usa
less drastic is the way to go, i think. i want some sort of motorcycle thing at the end of this, rather than a big puddle of shiny goo.


live every day.
die once.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #722643
01/19/18 10:16 pm
01/19/18 10:16 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,867
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,867
argyll. scotland, uk
Found this vid on you tube , accordng to the beardy guy Acetone plus rust gives CO2 , Water , and crucially ferric carbide , which is brittle, supposedly how this works.
Unlike the guy I do not reccomend adding a 14 year old Single malt to the mix, nutter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7hpmmlYBFM


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Alan_nc 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1