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Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC #709474
09/23/17 10:32 pm
09/23/17 10:32 pm
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stan cole Offline OP
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Back to my project again. I have found some information on my 61 TR5AC indication it comes with a sport cam # 31324 in. and 3325 ex. What does that mean? At idle it seams to not be real smooth, but comes on strong, still on the work table. Not far enough along to take it on the road. I can move the dizzy, to smooth it out, but then it doesn't start. Any thoughts? Stan

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Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: stan cole] #709499
09/24/17 5:47 am
09/24/17 5:47 am
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Lancaster, California
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Are these "sports cams" stock for the TR5AC? I understand there is not much documents out there on that particular model

Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: stan cole] #709506
09/24/17 8:44 am
09/24/17 8:44 am
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Stuart Online content
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Hi Stan,

Originally Posted by stan cole
I have found some information on my 61 TR5AC indication it comes with a sport cam # 31324 in. and 3325 ex. What does that mean?

I'm guessing you mean, "3134 in.". They're cam profiles; (E)3134 and (E)3325 were the original Triumph part numbers of the camshafts the profiles were (originally?) ground on, E3134 in particular is quite legendary among specials builders.

Originally Posted by stan cole
idle it seams to not be real smooth, but comes on strong, still on the work table. Not far enough along to take it on the road. I can move the dizzy, to smooth it out, but then it doesn't start.

Risking stating the obvious, "it seams to not be real smooth" - if not timing - might be carburation? What carb. and settings - jets sizes, needle, slide cutaway - does the bike have?

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: stan cole] #709508
09/24/17 10:32 am
09/24/17 10:32 am
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Those are normal sports road cams.

What happens when you stop randomly twisting the distributor and set the timing?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: stan cole] #709513
09/24/17 12:04 pm
09/24/17 12:04 pm
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Kent, UK
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Probably not much help, but the Roy Bacon book 'Triumph Twin Restoration' gives E3325 as inlet and exhaust for the TR5 up to 1958, and then the TR6 and T110 from the mid 50s to 1961 also have E3325 for both cams (nothing is listed for a 1961 TR5AC).
The 1962 TR6s and T120s are stated to have an E3134 inlet, and an E3325 exhaust (any disagreements with this, speak to Roy Bacon).

On the info above, your setup seems to be pretty typical for the period, at the sportier end of the range.

As others have said - what's going on with the carburation and ignition (when correctly timed)?


"1967 TR6R"
Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: stan cole] #709587
09/25/17 1:30 am
09/25/17 1:30 am
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quinten Online content
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you have, or may have. . the wrong distributor.

I see a ....40820A ... 18D2 CW listed on a Lucas distributor list for T100s

it lists 5 degrees advance , full Advanced at 1750

https://pt.scribd.com/doc/36551437/Lucas-Ignition-List

.

Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: quinten] #709645
09/25/17 7:26 pm
09/25/17 7:26 pm
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Originally Posted by quinten
you have, or may have. . the wrong distributor.

Nope. 40820 is listed for the later T100SC. The distributor specified for ET TR5AC's is the 10-degree 40710.

Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: stan cole] #709742
09/26/17 5:12 pm
09/26/17 5:12 pm
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quinten Online content
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Originally Posted by Stuart
Originally Posted by quinten
you have, or may have. . the wrong distributor.

Nope. 40820 is listed for the later T100SC. The distributor specified for ET TR5AC's is the 10-degree 40710.

nope.
it does not matter what is listed... or even what may have been Factory fitted
it the bike is expected to do more than stand in a corner, it needs to run well

you cannot satisfactorily Run a 10 degree advance on an ET stator.
Lucas , at some point figured this out ( I'm guessing 1961-62 )
and settled on 5 degrees, for the 1962 ET fitted t100's
and continued using this amount of Advance on various ET bikes, up until the end of production in the early 70s

the Et stators dynamic output , ranges about 8 crankshaft degrees from idle to 2000 rpms.
the correct spark advance in practice.... must be limited to this same range
. ... or performance will suffer.
what this means in Practical terms is
a distributor with too much advance
May start and idle well but loses power at higher RPMs ( advanced points triggering is happening outside Peak primary voltage )
or
the bike will not idle, is hard to start .... but runs well at higher RPMs ( retarded points triggering is happening outside Peak primary voltage )

....this sounds exactly like the timing problems Stan has described... at the beginning of this thread

therefore the improved, Limited 5 degree distributor fitted in 1962 is the right distributor also for 1961.
.
just my opinion but
I wouldn't go looking for a problem with the cams until the problem of the distributor is addressed
.

Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: quinten] #709763
09/26/17 7:39 pm
09/26/17 7:39 pm
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Originally Posted by quinten
you cannot satisfactorily Run a 10 degree advance on an ET stator.

Mmmm ... curiously, the TR5A's (first year 1961) are fitted with exactly the same alternator and distributor as the T100A, of which there were over 2000 made in 1960 ...

Originally Posted by quinten
Lucas
settled on 5 degrees, for the 1962 ET fitted t100's
and continued using this amount of Advance on various ET bikes, up until the end of production in the early 70s

Along with the different '62 distributor, Lucas supplied completely different RM19 stators and rotors for all '62-on bikes, including any fitted with ET ...

ET was not fitted after 1967 ...

Originally Posted by quinten
I wouldn't go looking for a problem with the cams until the problem of the distributor is addressed

What "problem" with the cams? Stan just asked a question about the ones on his bike ...

Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: Stuart] #709783
09/26/17 10:39 pm
09/26/17 10:39 pm
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Originally Posted by quinten
I wouldn't go looking for a problem with the cams until the problem of the distributor is addressed

Originally Posted by Stuart
What "problem" with the cams? Stan just asked a question about the ones on his bike ...

no , I'd say you are mistaken .
he asked for thoughts
on. ... why said he could not seem to get the bike timed ... to run well ...through the full RPM range....without moving the distributor.

my answer stands and fully addresses the question ... the distributor has too much advance
(my solution is just what Lucas did one year later )
they limited the advance in the very same distributor body . . to 5 degrees

Originally Posted by Stan
Back to my project again. I have found some information on my 61 TR5AC indication it comes with a sport cam # 31324 in. and 3325 ex. What does that mean? ...At idle it seams to not be real smooth, but comes on strong, still on the work table. Not far enough along to take it on the road. I can move the dizzy, to smooth it out, but then it doesn't start. Any thoughts? Stan


implicit in the two-part question is ยทยทยทยท are the cams part of the rough running issue?
... my thoughts are , until the distributor is sorted ... no
.


Last edited by quinten; 09/27/17 1:40 am. Reason: limited ability to to self edit in real time
Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: stan cole] #709790
09/27/17 12:36 am
09/27/17 12:36 am
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According to the parts manual supplement, the TR5AC had an E4039 exhaust cam and until engine no. H25251 it had a 10-degree advance distributor for its E.T. ignition system, at that point switching to 5-degree.

An E.T. system will work fine with a 10-deg. advance. However, it won't work fine if it has an advance very much larger than that due to either manufacturing tolerances or wear. That's why they switched to 5-deg. The E.T. system continued in use into the 1970s on BSA's dedicated racing models even though they had been forced off the road, so to speak, after '67 by a U.S. law requiring brake lights to continue to work when the engine was off.

Stan hasn't given us enough information to make a good guess, but it doesn't sound to me like the amount of advance is the problem. My experience is that when you exceed the E.T.'s advance range in either direction the ignition behaves pretty much like it has been switched off. That is, it doesn't run roughly, it just doesn't run. Still, I'd want more details on the symptoms before ruling anything in or out.

Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: Magnetoman] #709802
09/27/17 1:46 am
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stan cole Offline OP
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Thanks for all the reply's. The distributor that came with motor is a 10 degree 18D2 4071b. The distributor's weight springs were rusted beyond use. I replaced the springs, but don't know if they were right ones. Just not a lot of distributor internals out there, that I could find. Thanks again. Stan

Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: Magnetoman] #709813
09/27/17 5:00 am
09/27/17 5:00 am
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
According to the parts manual supplement, the TR5AC had an E4039 exhaust cam

According to the supplement I have (undated but "From Engine No 18612"), E4039 is listed only for the TR5AR. I know Stan has a copy of this supplement because I sent it to him.

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
the TR5AC
until engine no. H25251 it had a 10-degree advance distributor for its E.T. ignition system, at that point switching to 5-degree.

H25251 is officially the last '61 C-range. H25252-on is '62, all variants are fitted with RM19 alternators and, officially, the TR5AC is superseded by the T100SC which, as said, has the different (5-degree) dizzy.

However, as http://www.triumph-tiger-90.com/ details, the reality is more confused than we'd like, with the change from '61 H25251 to '62 H25252 being in the middle of a batch of 3TA's, some (13!) TR5AC's built in '62 with several hundred TR5AR's, some '62-spec. machines being reworked '61 and T100SR/SC not actually stamped on engines.

Nevertheless, the referred Service Bulletin 229 (dated August 1964) makes specific distinction between T100A, TR5AR, TR5AC and T100SC; the first three have the 10-degree 40710 dizzy, only the T100SC has the 5-degree 40820.

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
The E.T. system continued in use into the 1970s on BSA's dedicated racing models

While we are now wa-aa-ay off anything to do with Stan's bike, as the RM19 was superseded by the RM21 on road bikes in 1969, BSA racers after about then must have the RM22?

Regards,

Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: Stuart] #709816
09/27/17 6:14 am
09/27/17 6:14 am
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If we're looking at the same 'Supplement to No. 4 "C" Range Replacement Parts Catalogue for 1961-72 500c.c. Sports Models TR5AR TR5AC T100SC From engine No. 18612' then one of us is misreading it. My copy shows E4039 exhaust cam was used in both the TR5AR and TR5AC through engine no. H25251.

The same supplement shows part no. 40710 'Distributor (10o range ET.) 18D2' for the TR5AR to H21122 (at which point the AR models switched to battery ignition) and the TR5AC to 25251. The only use of part no. 40820 with 5o is for the T100SC with E.T. ignition from H25252. So, from this, 10o distributors were used in all 1961 AC and AR models that were equipped with E.T. ignitions. For what it's worth I have a 1961 TR5AR but from the later batch that used battery ignition.

The post-'70 BSA racing models used a cut down version of the stator having only the E.T. ignition coils. I'd have to look up the number applied to it but, as you say, this is way off topic.

Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: Magnetoman] #709819
09/27/17 8:17 am
09/27/17 8:17 am
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
If we're looking at the same 'Supplement to No. 4 "C" Range Replacement Parts Catalogue for 1961-72 500c.c. Sports Models TR5AR TR5AC T100SC From engine No. 18612' then one of us is misreading it. My copy shows E4039 exhaust cam was used in both the TR5AR and TR5AC through engine no. H25251.

cool My copy actually has a strategically-placed splodge on the camshaft line in the "C" column ... enlarging the image shows what I originally took to be a "-" is actually part of the splodge ... and part of a "1" can be discerned ...

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
The post-'70 BSA racing models used a cut down version of the stator having only the E.T. ignition coils. I'd have to look up the number

Lucas 47226 stator, same 54213901 rotor as used with the more-common 47205 RM21 stator (although the '78 Lucas parts book lists the standard rotor as 54202275).

The 47226 stators I've seen have been a little over one-third of a full-circle 47205(?), so the 47226 is just one pair of series-connected encapsulated stator coils plus a mounting hole at each end. While, on a BSA racing single, I can see a RM22 connected directly to an AC ignition coil, points, etc.(?), my knowledge is of the RM22's use on early-1970's production-racing triples where afaict it was connected to a rectifier - using it with a single AC coil and dizzy would've been too-obviously non-standard.

Regards,

Re: Cam shaft ID on my 61 TR5AC [Re: quinten] #712707
10/25/17 9:03 pm
10/25/17 9:03 pm
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that's a good link Quentin...the distributor you reference is on page 8 about 1/4 of the way down. On the previous page, p.7, list the distributor Stan has (and I have for my TR5A R). Stan, if interested, you might try contacting Martin Jay, The Distributor Doctor LTD, martin@distributordoctor.com. The little dealings I have had with him have been perfectly fine & most likely I will be sending my 40710B 18D2 to him for a rebuild.
Best of luck!


'61 TR5A R w/ '69 T100R front end

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