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"Happy" News For us Old Guys... #712578
10/24/17 9:37 pm
10/24/17 9:37 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,381
Pennsyltuckey
ricochetrider Online content OP

Moto Mojo
ricochetrider  Online Content OP

Moto Mojo
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,381
Pennsyltuckey
Who you calling old? laugh
I'd rather die riding than *most* other ways I can think of...

OLD GUYS DYING ON MOTORCYCLES


"It is no measure of health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

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Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712594
10/24/17 11:28 pm
10/24/17 11:28 pm
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,578
Elburn, Ill. USA
I
Irish Swede Offline
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Irish Swede  Offline
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I
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,578
Elburn, Ill. USA
How about THIS for a reason:

So many "young' people so involved with their cell phone and Twitter "social media" junk while driving that they
don't pay attention to what they're doing as they cruise down the roads, dangers to themselves, and to US.

That trend is more prevalent today, than were the drunk drivers of years gone by.

Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712597
10/25/17 12:04 am
10/25/17 12:04 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,834
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline

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Posts: 5,834
Maui Hawaii
"Barnes said older riders should sign up for gym memberships, as well as motorcycle training, since even sedate riding is a very physical activity and riders need to be in shape."

This is something I didn't know. I've never thought of street riding as very physical at all.

What I take from this is that I should keep riding, and riding often, or give it up altogether provided I was interested in safety.

Which I am. I'm probably the biggest PIA around here for safe riding, no drinking, safety equipment as well as keeping bikes in safe riding condition.

Sorry, can't help myself.

And I absolutely despise drivers who have phones in their hands. I shake my fist at them.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: Irish Swede] #712598
10/25/17 12:32 am
10/25/17 12:32 am
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,772
Central Virginia
Lannis Online content

Life member
Lannis  Online Content

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Posts: 12,772
Central Virginia
Originally Posted by Irish Swede
How about THIS for a reason:

So many "young' people so involved with their cell phone and Twitter "social media" junk while driving that they
don't pay attention to what they're doing as they cruise down the roads, dangers to themselves, and to US.

That trend is more prevalent today, than were the drunk drivers of years gone by.


Not only more prevalent, but it's as socially acceptable as drunk driving was 50 years ago, when Foster Brooks and Dean Martin made good livings playing lovable drunks, and rednecks bragged about drinking a case of beer and "cleanin' out both ditches goin' home, buddy!"

Drunk driving isn't acceptable or celebrated any more, but demented driving-while-texting is considered necessary enough to result in thousands of dead people on the roads every year ....

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712602
10/25/17 1:09 am
10/25/17 1:09 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,200
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,200
North Georgia, USA
Quote
“The people our age think we’re really good riders and we don’t take (safety) courses,” said Havens, 73, of Springfield. “And the bikes are bigger now than what I rode in the ’70s — bigger, faster, with more acceleration.”


And that's why I sold my 100 hp bike and went back to a sedate 55 hp machine built in the 70's. These days when someone passes me, I still whack open the throttle to give chase, but nothing happens !

laughing


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712604
10/25/17 1:39 am
10/25/17 1:39 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,278
Magnolia, TX
htown Offline
BritBike Forum member
htown  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,278
Magnolia, TX
40 years ago the mantra was don't use the front brake it'll pitch ya over the handlebars, if your in trouble you got to lay it down. Unfortunately too many people still believe this. Was following 2 guy on big baggers when the light changed. One guy locked up his rear brake and flopped over right in front of me. He wasn't going fast and wasn't hurt but it ruined his pretty paint job. Needs to be some sort of mandatory retraining after a number of years of not owning a bike, could cross reference to see if you had a licensed bike with DMV.
I had to take a safe riding course after a 30 year hiatus as I had let my classification lapse. Glad I did, I learned a lot including how important front brake was.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712606
10/25/17 1:44 am
10/25/17 1:44 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,910
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,910
ohio, usa
Originally Posted by ricochetrider

I'd rather die riding than *most* other ways I can think of...


you're right. nobody lives forever.

personally, i will be delighted if my last 10 seconds of life are to be at 135 mph on my T120.

i'm old, and i know it. i have nothing to gain by trying to postpone my death, and a great deal to gain by living as deeply as i can while i still can.

just sayin.


live every day.
die once.
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712613
10/25/17 2:23 am
10/25/17 2:23 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,956
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
BritBike Forum member
GrandPaul  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,956
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
You know, I've been putting off resurrecting my '03 ZRX1200R, and the more I think about it, the more unlikely it seems...


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: Lannis] #712632
10/25/17 7:33 am
10/25/17 7:33 am
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,065
Derbyshire UK
BeezaBryan Online content

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BeezaBryan  Online Content

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Posts: 3,065
Derbyshire UK
Originally Posted by Lannis
Originally Posted by Irish Swede
How about THIS for a reason:

So many "young' people so involved with their cell phone and Twitter "social media" junk while driving that they
don't pay attention to what they're doing as they cruise down the roads, dangers to themselves, and to US.

That trend is more prevalent today, than were the drunk drivers of years gone by.


Not only more prevalent, but it's as socially acceptable as drunk driving was 50 years ago, when Foster Brooks and Dean Martin made good livings playing lovable drunks, and rednecks bragged about drinking a case of beer and "cleanin' out both ditches goin' home, buddy!"

Drunk driving isn't acceptable or celebrated any more, but demented driving-while-texting is considered necessary enough to result in thousands of dead people on the roads every year ....

Lannis


I saw this at 2008 Vintage Motorcycle Days, old school bus converted to race truck

[Linked Image]


Blessed are the curious for they shall have adventures

It's not the destination, it's the journey.

Bryan



Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712633
10/25/17 8:15 am
10/25/17 8:15 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,613
UK Berks
A
AngloBike Online content
BritBike Forum member
AngloBike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
A
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,613
UK Berks
I hade a friend from Texas who was over in the uk for work and he was terrified of the front brake. How he survived on the roads in the USA is still a wonder to me

Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712640
10/25/17 12:21 pm
10/25/17 12:21 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,381
Pennsyltuckey
ricochetrider Online content OP

Moto Mojo
ricochetrider  Online Content OP

Moto Mojo
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,381
Pennsyltuckey
[i]"National statistics on motorcycle fatalities show a curious trend: Whereas in 1975, 80 percent of motorcycle fatalities involved riders 29 years old or younger, now the age group with the most fatalities is 50 and older, at 35 percent, according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, a nonprofit highway safety research group funded by auto insurance companies. Ninety-one percent of those killed in 2015 were male."

Well I have to say that the group getting killed today might contain some of the surviving members of the group of motorcyclists getting killed in 1975! laughing

Seriously, tho...
All in all, she makes some valid points, some of which are good for life in general for older people- one of which is that we need to stay in shape. The other valid point she makes is that each of us- those who return to motorcycling, and yes, those of us who never left - could benefit from a safety course or some training. Illinois is one of 2 states that offer free Motorcycle safety course, paid for by funds from MC licensing. Pennsylvania is the other. Training is SO important for so many aspects of say, the work world, the military, for people whose lives and jobs are changing periodically or constantly evolving. Motorcycling is no different, in fact things have changed so drastically in the realm of motorcycles themselves, and in the realm of what others are doing around us riders. Roads are bigger and busier than ever, drivers have more distractions than ever. SO where is the argument against taking a safety training course? HMMM? I took PA's free course back in 1988 or sometime way back when, after a lifetime of being on bikes (with absolutely zero training of any kind, BTW). I had never gone so far as to actually get licensed for operating a bike, so part of my reason for taking the course was that if you pass it, you are granted a MC classification for your motor vehicle operator's license. I would have never believed it prior to taking the course but I actually learned a LOT! Pretty sure they offer an advanced course and it is my intention to take it. Track days are also beneficial for us street riders, and I would love to take one of my bikes onto a track sometime under. instruction.

SO, stay in shape and get that safety course under your belt. Stay hydrated and stay safe. And I'll see you on the road somewhere.

Last edited by ricochetrider; 10/25/17 12:22 pm.

"It is no measure of health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: HawaiianTiger] #712641
10/25/17 12:33 pm
10/25/17 12:33 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,381
Pennsyltuckey
ricochetrider Online content OP

Moto Mojo
ricochetrider  Online Content OP

Moto Mojo
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,381
Pennsyltuckey
Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
"Barnes said older riders should sign up for gym memberships, as well as motorcycle training, since even sedate riding is a very physical activity and riders need to be in shape."

This is something I didn't know. I've never thought of street riding as very physical at all.

Cheers,
Bill


Riding longer distances can be demanding both physically and mentally. My K1200RS weighs about 620 pounds (wet weight). Toss that thing around loaded, 2 up and after 400 miles you're feeling it. Add busy interstates or high traffic zones into the mix, where you absolutely have to focus on getting thru it alive, cell phones, GPS screens, other distractions and all... then add extended periods of riding under busy, hectic traffic conditions 2 up on a fully loaded bike for a couple hundred miles (think: on any interstate highway today) and it is VERY demanding.

On a typical day, most of us have no need to pay such strict attention to... anything. Certainly not for any length of time. And if our attention span wanders during the course of an average day's activities, we aren't going to DIE. On a bike, it can all go way wrong way quick. So not only is there the physical aspect of riding, there is also the mentally fatiguing aspect of having to focus for extended periods of time.


"It is no measure of health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712663
10/25/17 2:58 pm
10/25/17 2:58 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,065
Derbyshire UK
BeezaBryan Online content

BritBike Forum member
BeezaBryan  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,065
Derbyshire UK
Originally Posted by ricochetrider
Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
"Barnes said older riders should sign up for gym memberships, as well as motorcycle training, since even sedate riding is a very physical activity and riders need to be in shape."

This is something I didn't know. I've never thought of street riding as very physical at all.

Cheers,
Bill


Riding longer distances can be demanding both physically and mentally. My K1200RS weighs about 620 pounds (wet weight). Toss that thing around loaded, 2 up and after 400 miles you're feeling it. Add busy interstates or high traffic zones into the mix, where you absolutely have to focus on getting thru it alive, cell phones, GPS screens, other distractions and all... then add extended periods of riding under busy, hectic traffic conditions 2 up on a fully loaded bike for a couple hundred miles (think: on any interstate highway today) and it is VERY demanding.

On a typical day, most of us have no need to pay such strict attention to... anything. Certainly not for any length of time. And if our attention span wanders during the course of an average day's activities, we aren't going to DIE. On a bike, it can all go way wrong way quick. So not only is there the physical aspect of riding, there is also the mentally fatiguing aspect of having to focus for extended periods of time.



I wonder if what it all means is "know your limitations" and ride/drive accordingly?


Blessed are the curious for they shall have adventures

It's not the destination, it's the journey.

Bryan



Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: BeezaBryan] #712668
10/25/17 3:36 pm
10/25/17 3:36 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,772
Central Virginia
Lannis Online content

Life member
Lannis  Online Content

Life member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,772
Central Virginia
Originally Posted by BeezaBryan


I saw this at 2008 Vintage Motorcycle Days, old school bus converted to race truck

[Linked Image]


That's an excellent sentiment, and I agree with it, but if you're going to ride with it in public, you'll need to be ready to back it up!! A good old rule is "Don't let your mouth write checks that your a$$ can't cash .... "!!

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712685
10/25/17 5:44 pm
10/25/17 5:44 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,658
New Hampshier USA
MikeG Online content

BritBike Forum member
MikeG  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,658
New Hampshier USA
I took an MSF advanced rider course about 15 years ago. I gotta say, it was pretty informative and got me a break on my insurance premiums too. The only thing I had a problem with is I have always kept my front brake lever "covered", one or two fingers on it at all times, and the instructor told me this is bad. Something about inadvertently hitting it when you don't want to. Never has happened to me and I still do it. Best part of the day however was watching two guys on Honda VTX's trying to negotiate the cone maze and inside the box. Both were there because of excessive points on their license, and when they said something to the head instructor about the course not being set up for bikes like theirs he hopped on his full dressed Harley and went through it like he was on a moped. Practice does indeed make perfect!


1960 BSA A10
2007 Suzuki Bandit
1957 A10
(Used to be a Triumph here)
71 Norton Commando
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: Lannis] #712691
10/25/17 6:26 pm
10/25/17 6:26 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,065
Derbyshire UK
BeezaBryan Online content

BritBike Forum member
BeezaBryan  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,065
Derbyshire UK
Originally Posted by Lannis
Originally Posted by BeezaBryan


I saw this at 2008 Vintage Motorcycle Days, old school bus converted to race truck

[Linked Image]


That's an excellent sentiment, and I agree with it, but if you're going to ride with it in public, you'll need to be ready to back it up!! A good old rule is "Don't let your mouth write checks that your a$$ can't cash .... "!!

Lannis


I was having high old time amongst the race folks such as this guy while looking to catch up with Alex (Sohn)
[Linked Image]

when I spotted this rig and found the carphone sticker on the back window

[Linked Image]


Blessed are the curious for they shall have adventures

It's not the destination, it's the journey.

Bryan



Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712695
10/25/17 6:49 pm
10/25/17 6:49 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,834
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline

BritBike Forum member
HawaiianTiger  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,834
Maui Hawaii
As soon as you think you might not survive riding street bikes, you should quit doing it, providing you want to go out in some other less violent way.

Who said they had an irrational fear of cars being behind them? Nothing irrational about that.

Traveling on the same roads day after day has it's own benefits.

Spotting the problem driver before he is a problem is key.

Having good reactions is only part of the process. Doing the right thing is the big part.

Keep a cool head while driving is my goal. I sometimes lose it around fools in cages.

Cheers,
Bill

PS
I wanted to add something. I think the human brain can do some pretty amazing things(provided it's in good working order and not subdued by foreign substances)
As an example, I often marvel at what went through my mind a while ago when I found myself in a corner on the Commando which quickly became apparent I had no chance of making it though rubber side down. I went through the options. 1. Lay it down like all good Harley guys do and slide off the road. Nope. 2. Try to make the corner anyway laying it down on the rigid foot pegs that Nortons have, slide on that for while then have it stand up and pitch me over the high side. Nope. Straighten up, binders on hard, run off the road, take my chances there and ride that bitch until she throws me off. Right, this option. All in a fraction of a second. I rode off the road, then fell at under 20 mph broke my center stand, my foot peg and soiled my britches for sure.

I'm of the opinion this is something you can't train for. I put it down to racing and the instincts you develop there. I push younger riders to race if they plan on riding on the street. There is no better training.

B.

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 10/25/17 8:38 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712732
10/26/17 2:42 am
10/26/17 2:42 am
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 303
Wisconsin, USA
F
franko Offline
BritBike Forum member
franko  Offline
BritBike Forum member
F
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 303
Wisconsin, USA
Just a thought about the age difference from back then to now. It was about 1965 when electric starters became common on motorcycles. Indian had it in 1915, but not common. If the big bikes of today had to be kick started by middle age riders, I believe fewer of them would ride or the bikes would be smaller displacements.

Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712759
10/26/17 8:20 am
10/26/17 8:20 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,834
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline

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HawaiianTiger  Offline

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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,834
Maui Hawaii
We've had about four fatalities here in the last several years. One was a kid on a dirt bike, two were Harley riders taking a turn too fast and plowed into a pickup and the most recent was a sport bike rider doing way over 100 who had a car pull out in front of him. I think only the Harley riders were over 50.

This doesn't match the stats in the article. Considering that probably 80% of the riders here are on Harleys and over 50, our stats are skewed toward the younger riders.

It's likely a local phenomenon.

I wonder if anyone has stats on classic bike riders.......that would be of far more interest to us. I have a feeling that riders of classic British iron have fewer accidents and fewer fatalities than the general motorcycling population....just a guess.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: HawaiianTiger] #712775
10/26/17 12:05 pm
10/26/17 12:05 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,635
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,635
Running from demons in WNY
I'm not the same rider now at 70 that I was at 30 years old...But I still ride an Italian sport bike and even go fast at times. Most all older riders I see are on loaded touring bikes or Harleys.. Most bikes crashes here are at crowded intersections or single bike crashes ....The former usually a fault of a car, the later the rider's fault..

Quote

I wonder if anyone has stats on classic bike riders.......that would be of far more interest to us. I have a feeling that riders of classic British iron have fewer accidents and fewer fatalities than the general motorcycling population....just a guess.


Generally speaking, from my observations, classic bikes are ridden less in better weather by older riders...it is unusual to see a Brit Bike on the road here in western NY state..


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712816
10/26/17 7:04 pm
10/26/17 7:04 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,834
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline

BritBike Forum member
HawaiianTiger  Offline

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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,834
Maui Hawaii
Yes, that's true, I ride my British bikes less than my daily transportation bike, which is a Honda 650. My Honda is a fair bit faster than my 850 Commando. I suppose it could be called a high powered bike. I do ride it faster than my Britibikes. I'm trying to be more kind to them so I can make them last longer. The Honda simply doesn't care how I ride it. It will outlast me by many years.

So, if I conducted a study, it would be something like this. What are the stats on riders of classic bikes, who also own and ride modern motorcycles. I think this would include most of the members here.

My guess is that people like this are more skilled in riding, but also more skilled in a lot of other areas such as motorcycle maintenance which would likely contribute to their basic safety while riding.

Cheers,
Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 10/26/17 7:05 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712879
10/27/17 5:48 am
10/27/17 5:48 am
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 216
Hailey,Id.
B
bsawood Offline

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bsawood  Offline

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B
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 216
Hailey,Id.
If I don't break it, I don't have to fix it. If I don't break it I probably won't break me.

Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712916
10/27/17 5:35 pm
10/27/17 5:35 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,910
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,910
ohio, usa
lol

i'm still limping from learning how to start grandpaul's 441. i thought my T120 could kick back, but i am now better educated.


live every day.
die once.
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: kevin roberts] #712920
10/27/17 6:18 pm
10/27/17 6:18 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,635
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,635
Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
lol

i'm still limping from learning how to start grandpaul's 441. i thought my T120 could kick back, but i am now better educated.


I have never ridden a 4 stroke single bigger than 250 cc's Am I missing something, like jack hammer vibration?


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: "Happy" News For us Old Guys... [Re: ricochetrider] #712921
10/27/17 6:31 pm
10/27/17 6:31 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,834
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline

BritBike Forum member
HawaiianTiger  Offline

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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,834
Maui Hawaii
Big singles can be very smooth. Just ask the Velocette guys.

I nearly permanently damaged myself on an AJS 500 single, but my Yamaha SR500 was a piece of cake to start. There's a lot a variation.....

Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
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