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#712024 - 10/19/17 10:36 pm Ran with little or no oil.  
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desco Online content
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Bishop, Calif.
Blew the rocker feed pipe on the 72. Took about 1/4 to 1/2 mile to get to a safe parking spot. Trailered the bike home,replaced pipe and filled with oil. A little over 2 US quarts, so almost dry. Ran the motor twice now. Maybe 30 seconds each time. The valve clatter stopped and the oil level went down in the tank a bit during the first run. Topped up and ran another 30 seconds. No return to tank. Maybe a bubble every now and then.
Try, try again??? Suggestions????
Thanks.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
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#712032 - 10/20/17 2:00 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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desco Online content
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Bishop, Calif.
Try, try again was the answer. Have return, idiot light out. Looking into the tank is like looking at the top of a glass of draught beer. I'm sure after a few passes through the engine the air will be gone. Had to add even more oil. It was bone dry. Engine sounds no worse, or better, for the experience. God Bless the Triumph Bonneville. The toughest motorcycle ever built.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#712041 - 10/20/17 7:19 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Return feed WILL have bubbles, that is correct. Return half of the pump is higher capacity than feed, so sucks air as well as oil.

Last edited by tbird649; 10/20/17 7:21 am.


#712042 - 10/20/17 7:46 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Pleasant Hill, California USA
Hi desco, What was the oil pressure light doing when you noticed oil leak? Was it on with engine running?

What was oil pressure light doing after you repaired hose & started motor?

Sounds like you should thank God for your good luck. You were on the cusp of grave damage.

If your oil light was on before you shut off motor you were very lucky indeed. Centrifugal force can give rods a little residual oil from crank for a few moments, but not for 1/4-1/2 mile.

Keep in mind the feed pump & return pump are stand alone systems so to speak. If the oil pressure light was out with engine running your rod bearings were being protected with oil pressure. The rockers need very little oil & can run a fairly long time before damage occurs.

On the other hand, the rod bearings need constant oil pressure if you are riding bike. They will take damage very quickly without oil. If bike is at stand still rod bearings can go with out oil for a short period, but not under load.

OIF bikes take about 2 2/3 qts including primary case. So my hunch is you may have not actually ran rods dry.

Primary oil takes some miles to transfer over to sump so that's not a factor on the refill.

Suppose you change oil in frame, clean screen, drain eng sump & clean that screen also. But don't add any oil to eng sump.

Fill frame to full. Start motor, oil drops in about 10 seconds or so in frame. Yet it takes a good 40-60 seconds to see oil return in frame.

When you say air in oil, not sure what you mean. The return is always spurt back as return pump sucks air due to its volume is greater than feed pump. After motor runs awhile the oil gets aeriated to a degree & will have thousands of tiny bubbles. That is normal. After bike sits awhile motor off, the oil again looks solid like we'd want to see. That is all normal.

What caused the hose to come loose? Normally hose to rockers has very little pressure.

2 quarts leaking must have made a big mess. Was your back tire oil soaked?
Don


1973 Tiger 750
#712043 - 10/20/17 7:52 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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What caused the pipe problem?

There should be hardly any pressure in it.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#712047 - 10/20/17 9:58 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: triton thrasher]  
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OZ
Yes, thats what I'm wondering about ! I've had a bit to do with Triumphs for a few years now ( particularly T140's ), and have not experienced any trouble like this. Other niggling things , yes,( but keep that from the unit BSA twin mob, and the Norton franger bike lot), but ,personally, the Triumph lubrication system does work pretty well, within its design parameters ( in my opinion ).

#712055 - 10/20/17 3:49 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Sounds like all is OK. I hope so. Reminds me a similar problem I had. The "cap" blew off the left side of the rocker spindle and I was spurting oil, many miles from home. I was able to put my finger over it to limit the bleeding, and ride, ouch. Now how did I manage that?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#712081 - 10/21/17 1:02 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Bishop, Calif.
Was only on the the bike for about 10 minutes and was N bound on 4 lane 395 and my left turn across the 2 S bound lanes was coming up so I was looking into the mirror and over my shoulder and ahead all at the same time. When I looked down the red light was on. Mostly coasted on the paved berm then made the left over to the 2 lane road I was looking for. Had to keep goosing the throttle and clutch to keep things running to get to a wide flat spot to park and wait for tow truck.
Have been running clear tubing to the rockers for 35 years now. When I got the bike, the oil flowed AWAY from the rockers when I reved the engine. Fixed that but still ran clear tubing. Have not been able to get the tight fitting tubing and small clamps any more. Ran what I could find. Between looser fit and worthless clamps and chrome plated rocker lines I gambled and lost.
I know there is some air in the return, but the top of the oil in the tank is covered in 1/4" of foam.
When I parked I noticed that my jeans from the right knee down were soaked in oil. There was enough oil in my right sneaker to drive home on. The rest of the bike looked like the Exxon Valdez.
I will be taking a bit of a ride next week just to see. Winter is coming, three of the passes are closed this weekend due to snow.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#712084 - 10/21/17 2:05 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Bishop, Calif.
btour,
Genius is born of necessity. Many years ago I was headed to Palm Springs, Ca. on the old 65 T120 with the girlfriend on the back. The first obstacle we came upon after getting off the freeway was a flash flood raging over the road. I stopped at the edge of the flood and leaning the bike at a 45 degree angle towards me and the bike on the upstream side to act as a breakwater and me and the girlfriend hanging on to it and each other we pushed our way across to the other side. Then the sand storm started. Lacking air filters the carbs soon stuck in the wide open position. I used my hand to choke off the air to maintain a safe speed. Needless to say two soaking wet, sand blasted people on a motorcycle could not find any accommodations at any Inn in Palm Springs. I went to the police dept. and asked to be tossed into jail. No luck. We slept on top of a picnic table at the city park. All the way back to L.A. the next day she slept with her head on my back and her hands in my coat pockets. One of my best Triumph memories.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#712094 - 10/21/17 6:00 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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If it sounds good and oil pressure reasonable, I'd say you got away with it. Have seen similar mishaps where guys have avoided damage. Fingers crossed for you.

BTW, I vote lose the plastic hose..

#712103 - 10/21/17 7:48 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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long story short....on a ride with a friend tarred country road, and he lost his T150V in some gravel. He went off the road and rode up the dirt gutter. This bent his rear brake and gear change levers and both footpegs [it was a deep gutter].He also managed to hole his timing side case. I had some 100mph tape in my kit, so we washed his case off with fuel then dried with a rag and then used the tape on the timing case. Then we rode 20 miles back to my place. You could see the oil line on the road coming up the concrete driveway to my house and then stopping. The trail of oil just stopped - halfway up my driveway.
He rode it into the shed and we started tearing stuff off it and using the Oxy to straighten pegs etc.....BUT that bike had no oil in it, it was bone dry. If he had ridden 21 miles he likely wouldn't have made it.
And that bike showed no ill effects, it was fine for many miles and years later....but goes to show how lucky you can be.

In those days I didn't have my TIG, so we cleaned the case off with thinners, used silastic and more 100 mph tape, let it set overnight, new oil in it, and he rode it home 130 miles the next day and it didn't leak a drop.

Sorry for thread hijack desco......but your luck reminded me of somebody else with similar 'luck'.

Last edited by tridentt150v; 10/21/17 7:49 am.
#712106 - 10/21/17 8:14 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted by desco
When I looked down the red light was on.

Been there, done that (collapsed oil pipe on a triple). Rang an acknowledged British triple expert. He said, "I'm happy to lend you an o.p. gauge but first just remove the sump plate; if it has grey sludge, the plain bearings are fcuked." I did. It did. sick

Originally Posted by desco
idiot light out.

2c Oil pressure switch to the Idiot light works @ ~7 psi, tickover is ~20 psi, "Normal riding" (3000 rpm plus?) on a twin is ~60 psi. You haven't run the engine long enough to warm it up. Imho, I'd want to take my next ride with an oil pressure gauge connected before deciding how "tough" a plain-bearing engine was or "lucky" I'd been.

Hth.

Regards,

#712134 - 10/21/17 4:22 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: Stuart]  
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btour Online content
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Great stories. smile These bikes seem to have a way of building relationships out of adversity. Like the Mexican, immigrant itinerant farmer who offered to give me 60 mile ride home in the back of his rickety van with the unsold turnips, when I was broke down in Whately. None of the expensive SUV's could be bothered to talk to me.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#712135 - 10/21/17 4:24 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Stuart, One might assume the grey sludge is the same stuff that is supposed to be trapped by the sludge trap.

Now the brown stuff is different, I hope. One always finds a bit of that unless on always drops that plate to change the oil. Holy waste of gaskets, batman.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#712146 - 10/21/17 6:58 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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desco Online content
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Bishop, Calif.
Well I pulled the sump plug. Nothing in the screen but clean oil. I clean the sump and screen with every oil change. Blow it out with PJ1 Super Cleaner and let it sit for a few days. Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
Replaced clear with a 3/16" heavy fuel line and proper clamps. Supposed to warm up a bit Sunday. I'll have to trust my idiot light. No money for an oil gauge.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#712147 - 10/21/17 6:59 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: btour]  
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Hi Bob,

Originally Posted by btour
One might assume the grey sludge is the same stuff that is supposed to be trapped by the sludge trap.

Triples don't have sludge traps. The "grey sludge" was very fine bits of plain bearing metal ... cool

Regards,

#712168 - 10/21/17 10:59 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: Stuart]  
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Hi Bob, Don't sweat it too much.

I was riding to work, about 35 miles. Red light comes on in a flickering and teasing manner. A little more RPM and it goes away.

Well, not willing to put a hole in anything (especially me), I turned around. Light continued to flicker, more adamant this time. I stopped and checked the return flow while running. It was doing it properly.

Anyway, the seal had folded over. The OP relief valve spring was wrong and too strong. It allowed the pressure to become too high. I replaced that and topped up the oil level.

It has worked fine since. My only concession to the event was install of an OP gauge. I left the OP idiot light hooked up as the gauge wasn't lighted for night operations.

It has continued to soldier on for at least 3500 additional miles without any problems. The next oil change (and filter change) showed no metal trapped. It continues to show 60 psi when hot and running. Fingers crossed!!

Best of luck to you. Despite the motors being 'high performance' motors of the day, they are extremely sturdy.

Steve

Last edited by steve-d; 10/21/17 11:02 pm.

73 T140V
#712203 - 10/22/17 8:04 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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TR7RVMan Online content
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Hi desco, You said when you first got bike the oil flowed backwards from rockers. That is interesting. What did you do to fix it?

Had prior owner been riding it like that? How did rockers get oil?

I've never taken time to measure oil hole in rocker feed T on frame on OIF bike (or any other for that matter). Curious as to what diameter it is?

I actually don't know if there is even a restrictor hole in the T? Now my curiosity is up.

I have visually inspected the oil flow it my rockers with motor running warm, valve covers off. Very small amount of oil to rockers.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
#712204 - 10/22/17 8:15 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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TR7RVMan Online content
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Hi Steve-d, Just goes to show since the feed & return pumps are really stand alone systems they have to be examined separately.

Obviously assuming return pump works, if no oil ever comes out return tube the motor is getting no oil from feed.

But if feed pump is pumping you can't tell if pressure is actually good with out pressure gage. The oil was by passing seal so pressure showed low, yet return looked good.

Earlier today I was going over Triumph service bulletins & stumbled across one about oil pressure & return. How important it is to verify good oil pressure after repairs.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
#712218 - 10/22/17 10:28 am Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: TR7RVMan]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi desco, You said when you first got bike the oil flowed backwards from rockers. That is interesting. What did you do to fix it?

Had prior owner been riding it like that? How did rockers get oil?

I've never taken time to measure oil hole in rocker feed T on frame on OIF bike (or any other for that matter). Curious as to what diameter it is?

I actually don't know if there is even a restrictor hole in the T? Now my curiosity is up.

I have visually inspected the oil flow it my rockers with motor running warm, valve covers off. Very small amount of oil to rockers.
Don


From my race bike build about four years ago......

" The return oil pipe was plugged with some kind of hard crap resistant to pointy- pokey tools. It's got a bend so a drill won't do it either.Brazed ,so it's easy to remove from a naked frame on a bench.For reference,the drilled hole for the pipe outlet is .135 inch "

[Linked Image]


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#712234 - 10/22/17 1:29 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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desco Online content
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Bishop, Calif.
The quickfix for back ward flowing oil was to drill and tap the rocker covers and plumb them into the breather system. The permanent fix came a few years later with a proper valve job.
The guy I bought the bike from swore "Every nut, bolt, washer, gasket had been replaced and everything else had been rebuilt or restored". He lied. Many years and more than $10,000 later, I can say that.
I paid for the cylinders to be bored, including pistons and rings, twice in two months. The third time I took it to a guy named Bill Getty and he discovered that while the right cylinder was a vertical twin, the left was more Motto Guzzi. New cylinders, pistons and rings cured that. I cursed the 72 every day for the first few years. It has slowly morphed into probably the most reliable Triumph I have ever owned and since I got rid of all the ugly bits it is my "go to" ride. More than 35 years now and I'm going to take it with me when I go.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#712264 - 10/22/17 6:04 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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TR7RVMan Online content
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Ok, Thanks Guys.

Hillbilly, Thanks for the photo. The later frame in 1973 has 5/16 hose to rockers. The metal oil pipe to rocker shafts is skinny cross ways, but has 5/16 tube brazed on for the larger hose.

So what size was hole to your narrow T? .135 or is that for reservoir return?

What size is outlet hole to reservoir?
Don


1973 Tiger 750
#712272 - 10/22/17 7:23 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: TR7RVMan]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Ok, Thanks Guys.

Hillbilly, Thanks for the photo. The later frame in 1973 has 5/16 hose to rockers. The metal oil pipe to rocker shafts is skinny cross ways, but has 5/16 tube brazed on for the larger hose.

So what size was hole to your narrow T? .135 or is that for reservoir return?

What size is outlet hole to reservoir?
Don

Don, .135 is the small round hole you see in the photo. It's the outlet to the oil tank/reservoir.....Far as I know ,the T140 frame has the same sized outlet hole as the t120 frame shown...The actual size of the pipe to the rockers shouldn't matter ........


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#712295 - 10/22/17 9:52 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco]  
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Hi Hillbilly, Thanks for the reply. While I understand the diameter of the hose doesn't matter the size of the rocker feed supply hole does matter.

Depending on the relative size of the rocker feed orifice & the reservoir return orifice the percentage of oil to the rockers is changed. Make sense?

I know some of the racers would restrict reservoir hole to give more oil to rockers. Often they would simply stick a piece of wire in it until rocker feed was volume they wanted.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
#712310 - 10/22/17 11:08 pm Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: TR7RVMan]  
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi Hillbilly, Thanks for the reply. While I understand the diameter of the hose doesn't matter the size of the rocker feed supply hole does matter.

Depending on the relative size of the rocker feed orifice & the reservoir return orifice the percentage of oil to the rockers is changed. Make sense?

I know some of the racers would restrict reservoir hole to give more oil to rockers. Often they would simply stick a piece of wire in it until rocker feed was volume they wanted.
Don


There's a story floating here about Triumph experimenting and making the hole smaller and smaller until the resistance blew off the oil hose...And the aftermarket oil tanks with no restriction or too large a restriction...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
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