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#710669 - 10/06/17 1:09 am alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D?  
Joined: Mar 2011
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linker48x Offline
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linker48x  Offline
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Alaska
I am reviving a 1979 T140D and the stock master cylinder/switch/throttle on the right side looks like toast. The stock right side control is toast because the master cylinder is pretty much useless and corroded, the previous owner removed the switchgear wires and instead used wired up toggle switches in a fairing, and the throttle is binding on the bar--all of it needs to go. I much prefer using stock parts, but these are gone, and a new stock one costs around $150 without a master cylinder, so I am going to put on an 11 mm Magura master cylinder, a spare from one of my race bikes, a stainless braided brake line, and a Motion Pro throttle, also a race bike spare, or a stock 60's AMAL throttle. That leaves me wondering about what to use to replace the right side switch --pilot light and kill switch--any ideas? Certainly there is some old Japanese bike part that would fit.

I would appreciate any input you folks might have.


Last edited by linker48x; 10/06/17 1:35 am.
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#710694 - 10/06/17 7:45 am Re: alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D? [Re: linker48x]  
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted by linker48x
1979 T140D and the stock master cylinder/switch/throttle on the right side looks like toast. The stock right side control is toast because the master cylinder is pretty much useless and corroded, the previous owner removed the switchgear wires
appreciate any input you folks might have.

Is the $150 for the Sparx one? Have to say, I bought one about three years ago and I was very unimpressed with the quality. Sparx stuff has never been great, and luckily I bought before the prices were whacked up; since, imho there's no way the stuff is worth the prices being asked today. frown

As well as Japanese switch clusters, look at earlier Hinckley stuff. I have it in mind that "tridentt150v" posted pictures a while ago on TriumphRat of some Hinckley Trident switches and levers on his T150, but I can't find the pictures mad so I could be wrong, or they might've been on Photofuckup. Hopefully, he'll see this and either post the pictures again, or deny everything ...

Don't dump of the remains of the stock parts, particularly if the dpo just removed the wires; any small switch parts are common to both the left side switches on your bike and those in the earlier cluster used on the T160 and '76-'78 twins. Even the right side cluster castings could be useful to someone, as they aren't available as spares.

Check the diameter of the twistgrip drum where the cable wraps 'round; if it's around 1-1/4" to 1-3/8", they're easy to replace if needed in the future; however, if it's 1-1/2", they aren't without buying a load of Wassell junk.

Also don't dump the master cylinder, or especially the mounting casting. Down to an "11 mm. Magura" is a big reduction from the standard 5/8" i.d.; some have used 13 mm. and 1/2" master cylinders but 11 mm. might be a step too far? Replacement standard-size master cylinders are available in stainless, including just the cylinder if the existing piston is ok, when the mounting casting, lever, pushrod, bush, etc. will be useful.

Pity you aren't nearer, I'd be happy to take the remains off you.

Hth.

Regards,

#710708 - 10/06/17 2:21 pm Re: alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D? [Re: linker48x]  
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DMadigan Offline
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DMadigan  Offline
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ca, us
I have used SV650 switch gear. I have a T595 and Aprilia Mille, both have applicable switches.
Most modern switches have just the start and kill switch on the right. The left has the horn, signal, high/low beam and high beam flash switches.
If you are interested, I make a lever mount that uses the Brembo style adjustable lever with the stock Triumph 25mm master cylinder. It mounts inboard of the switches. The.mount is reverseable left/right and a hydraulic unit can be added to the clutch. PM for more information.
Make sure the Motion Pro throttle is for inch size bars, not metric.
11mm is small for a single disc. aSs, 13mm or 1/2" is more in line. I use a 5/8" for twin Grimeca 1050 calipers on 11" discs on my Wenco racer.

#710721 - 10/06/17 6:15 pm Re: alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D? [Re: DMadigan]  
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linker48x Offline
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linker48x  Offline
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Alaska
Appreciate the info re SV650 and early Hinckley switchgear. Basically, I am looking for arelatively inexpensive junkyard or eBay piece I can get at a nominal price,and there must be a million different combinations out there, and that is kind of my problem, finding something that fits and is not expensive, among all the various switches there are out there. I appreciate any advice anyone might have.

LOL, I am not dumping any parts, and there is nothing to reuse or reconnect, the prior owner gutted the switchgear, nothing left inside, and the master cylinder is corroded and the paint is peeling from leaking brake fluid. This throttle/swith/master cylinder unit is toast.

I hate to move off switchgear, the subject of this thread, to master cylinder size, but to respond to the above, many AHRMA racers, including me, use an 11 mm master cylinder with the 41 mm two piston Lockheed caliper, and it works perfectly and gives very sensitive modulation on the limit, without using a distracting amount of force, and using only two fingers, I can readily pick up the back wheel on both my Champion-framed Triumph Sportsman 750 bike and my Yamaha Formula 500 bike--both have 11 mm masters, Lockheed calipers, and 12 inch single discs. To me, a 5/8 master cylinder feels wooden, a lot like squeezing a 2x4 and requires a distractingly large amount of force to stop hard.

You might be interested to read this on this subject from Michael "Mercury" Morse at Vintage Brake on this subject: http://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm Mike knows something about brakes.

The hydraulic ratio and the feel you get with 11 mm master and single 41 mm caliper is about the same as any modern street bike--my R-1 Yamaha race bike feels about the same as my Triumph. This makes a difference if you ride "spirited", but in more or less ordinary street riding it probably doesn't matter much. Heck, I even have an 11 mm on my Norton street bike with a Lockheed caliper and 12 inch disc and braided stainless lines, and it works great. Anyway, different strokes for different folks, but try it and see if you like it.

But back to switchgear, any other ideas?? I am hoping for somebody's ready (and relatively inexpensive) solution to my switchgear problem.

Last edited by linker48x; 10/06/17 7:06 pm.
#710732 - 10/06/17 9:36 pm Re: alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D? [Re: linker48x]  
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Adam M. Online content
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Adam M.  Online Content
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Mississauga, Ontario.
I just used a Chinese copies of some Japanese switchgear, dirt cheap for like $7 a piece, so I bought two of them.
It's a left handlebar combined switch for lights, blinkers and horn + some very basic switch as a kill switch for my Trident.
Couldn't afford to rebuild original switchgear after engine rebuild smile.
Interesting info about 11mm front master, I bought Chinese copy of Honda Hawk 14 mm master for my original caliper and it works.
But movement of the lever is minimal and it needs considerable force to work hard.
You have to really squeeze it to smoke this front tire.

#710739 - 10/06/17 10:18 pm Re: alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D? [Re: linker48x]  
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Andy Higham Online content
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I would buy a secondhand Japanese switchgear and rewire it to suit. TBH the Lucas switchgear fitted to brit bikes was 'kin aweful, shorting out in the rain and needing a double jointed thumb to operate. Oh and champion plug caps that make you ride "legs akimbo" in the rain to avoid shocks


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1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
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#710754 - 10/07/17 12:53 am Re: alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D? [Re: Andy Higham]  
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi Andy,

Originally Posted by Andy Higham
TBH the Lucas switchgear fitted to brit bikes was 'kin aweful, shorting out in the rain and needing a double jointed thumb to operate.
champion plug caps that make you ride "legs akimbo" in the rain to avoid shocks

One T160 from brand-new, another from five years old, no trouble from either the original switch clusters or the Lucas '79-on black ones - same as on the o.p.'s T140D - fitted in about 1983. T100 has had Sparx copy of T160 left cluster for about fifteen years, no problems; T150 has standard pre-'71 switches, no problems

T160's with original "Champion" plug covers, no problems; T100 and T150 fitted with same, no problems

They've all covered several rain- and spray-soaked journeys of many hundred of miles.

Otoh, the 'earthing' kill switch on my Honda work bikes used to go wrong so regularly, I treated the clusters as consumables and kept a spare at home ready for the inevitable.

Regards,

#711382 - 10/12/17 11:30 pm Re: alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D? [Re: Adam M.]  
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linker48x Offline
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linker48x  Offline
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Alaska
Originally Posted by Adam M.
I just used a Chinese copies of some Japanese switchgear, dirt cheap for like $7 a piece, so I bought two of them.
It's a left handlebar combined switch for lights, blinkers and horn + some very basic switch as a kill switch for my Trident.
Couldn't afford to rebuild original switchgear after engine rebuild smile.
Interesting info about 11mm front master, I bought Chinese copy of Honda Hawk 14 mm master for my original caliper and it works.
But movement of the lever is minimal and it needs considerable force to work hard.
You have to really squeeze it to smoke this front tire.


Well, wish me well, because rather than go find a Japanese switch to buy at the junkyard, I bought a $14 Chinese left and right side switch set off eBay, and a $20 Chinese 11 mm brake master cylinder to boot (I already had a new 14 mm Chinese master cylinder that came with the bike, and a rough looking 11 mm Magura master cylinder out of my race box). No promises on quality, but if this works, I am way ahead of the game, and if it doesn't work, I haven't lost much. When they get here and I install them, I will post a pic or two. Cheers and thanks for the ideas, guys.

#711406 - 10/13/17 8:44 am Re: alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D? [Re: linker48x]  
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Hi,

Originally Posted by linker48x
I bought a $14 Chinese left and right side switch set off eBay,

Be aware of a little wrinkle with Triumph clutch levers, especially if the "left side switch set" you've bought doesn't have the clutch lever incorporated and you have to buy a pattern lever that clamps to the handlebar.

Significant is the distance from lever pivot centre to cable nipple centre; if you measure that distance on your bike's original black "left side switch set", you'll find it's 1" - this is unusual on Triumph twins, correct is 7/8" on all pre-'79 twins; reason is the black switch clusters fitted '79-on were developed originally for the '75 electric-start Norton Commando.

To accommodate the greater clutch inner length pulled by the greater '79-on handlebar lever pivot-to-nipple distance, Meriden fitted a different clutch actuation mechanism in the gearbox cover, also with a longer pivot-centre-to-nipple-centre distance; then the angular movement of the clutch actuation mechanism - that moves the balls out of the indents in the gearbox cover "clutch lever" and "thrust plate" - is pretty-much the same pre-'79 and '79-on. bigt

Most clamp-on handlebar clutch levers punted by Meriden Triumph spares retailers are likely to be 7/8" pivot-centre-to-nipple-centre; regrettably, these will cause clutch drag when used with the standard '79-on clutch actuation mechanism. frown However, ones with 1" pivot-centre-to-nipple-centre do exist, just a matter of finding a dealer who can work a ruler to check ...

Hth.

Regards,

#711674 - 10/15/17 9:18 pm Re: alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D? [Re: linker48x]  
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linker48x Offline
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linker48x  Offline
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Alaska
well that is interesting and useful information, thanks for that, I had not discovered that fact yet. Sounds like the easy answer--the path of least resistance-- would be to change the inner lever on top of the balls to the earlier and shorter model, and then revert to a normal 7/8 AMAL lever.

#711687 - 10/16/17 12:38 am Re: alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D? [Re: linker48x]  
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted by linker48x
Sounds like the easy answer--the path of least resistance-- would be to change the inner lever on top of the balls to the earlier and shorter model,

Mmmm ... snag is ...

The correct gearbox cover clutch actuation mechanism in your bike should have an "X" marked on the "Clutch lever"; it also has a different part number from the pre-'79 one.

Take the earlier part number - 57-4587 - enter it with "triumph" into your preferred internet search engine and study the returned pictures closely ... note how many being offered under the earlier part number have the "X" on the lever ... facepalm

They do exist without the "X", they just aren't very common. frown

Hth.

Regards,

#711731 - 10/16/17 8:46 pm Re: alternate right side switchgear for 1979 T140D? [Re: Stuart]  
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linker48x Offline
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linker48x  Offline
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Alaska
Most interesting, thanks again for another bit of information I didn't know! The advantage of having raced a Triumph for 25 years is, I have a lot of spare parts in boxes, having broken about everything on the motorcycle at least once, so I will go through my boxes first, in the hopes of finding a non-X part!


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