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#711268 - 10/12/17 12:50 am 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2  
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Douglass Harroun Offline
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I have two drive side crank bearings I ordered for 1971 Triumph Bonneville, marked on outer races : MRJ 1.1 / 8JCN, MRJ 1.1 / 8 J C2. I am thinking one is a CN the other is C2. The C2 fits together with difficulty, is tighter internally. What is the proper spec for this motor?
Thanks
Doug

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#711271 - 10/12/17 1:26 am Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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I think I can answer my own question- mine should be CN:


"For Triumph 650 the O.E.M. part number for the roller bearing was 70-2879 (E2879) and was used until the end of production in 1983. The problem here is that there are two different clearances that where used in production but where kept under the same part number of 70-2879 (E2879).
Below is a chart for Triumph and BSA twins in which we made to show you which bearing clearance you should use for your application."

Brand Model Year Bearing Type Location Clearance Rating
Triumph Unit 650CC 1963-1971 Ball T.S. C3
Triumph Unit 650CC 1971-197? Ball (Metric) T.S. C3

Triumph Unit 650CC 1966-1972 Roller D.S. CN <------------------------------------------------------------------------

Triumph Unit 650CC 1963-1965 Ball D.S. C3
Triumph Unit 750CC 1973-1982 Roller D.S. C2
BSA Unit 500CC / 650CC 1962-1965 Ball D.S. C3
BSA Unit 500CC / 650CC 1966-1972 Roller D.S. CN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think that with interference fit of the crankcase onto the bearing of .0015", the C2 bearing will not go together. It barely comes apart and goes together on the bench
Doug

#711294 - 10/12/17 4:35 am Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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Drive side would be a CN and timing side would be a C3. This topic has been covered many times - don't sweat it.

C2 would be a tight bearing therefore you should not use it...

I wrote a blog about this in a similar manor.. check it out:

https://www.classicbritishspares.com/blogs/news/16180669-triumph-bsa-crankshaft-bearings-clearance

#711325 - 10/12/17 4:15 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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70-2879C2 bearing
Click on this link to see Brian Jones letter.

Brian Jones was the design engineer for both Triumph and the co-operative. He is the one who specified the change in clearance.

This letter dated 1980 would indicate the C2 bearing was introduced after the worker's cooperative took over production. This places the introduction somewhere around 1977 and on. Based upon this letter the bikes manufactured up to 1976 would have had the CN bearing. If you have a 1976 you will have to check the markings on the original bearing to make a determination.

I asked Brian if they ever noted on the drawing when the change was made and he said he had no idea at which motor number they changed the bearing.


#711347 - 10/12/17 7:28 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: John Healy]  
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Would you agree that, in the event of doubt, it is better to err on the side of slacker clearance (in other words, CN instead of C2, or C3 instead of CN)?


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
#711360 - 10/12/17 8:32 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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If he is having issues with a C2 I would install a CN. I can't see how a "looser" fitting (C3 internally) bearing would cause issues. Maybe i'm wrong ?!

Last edited by C.B.S; 10/12/17 8:32 pm.
#711361 - 10/12/17 8:35 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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It results in vibration if you fit too loose a clearance, it pays to get it right.

#711367 - 10/12/17 9:35 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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A C3 would certainly cause the engine to knock!!!!!!!!! A loud knock at that.


#711372 - 10/12/17 9:52 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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...if you put both rollers I think is a must to have a C3 in on side.
That chart that you posted CBS, do not have the T140 roller.

#711499 - 10/14/17 8:12 am Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: reverb]  
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Originally Posted by reverb
...if you put both rollers I think is a must to have a C3 in on side.
That chart that you posted CBS, do not have the T140 roller.


It's suppose to give you basic "information" for those that do not know what bearing clearance is........

#711522 - 10/14/17 2:44 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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Brand Model Year Bearing Type Location Clearance Rating
Triumph Unit 650CC 1963-1971 Ball T.S. C3 (70-1591) used up to engine #GE27207
Triumph Unit 650CC 1971 Ball (Metric) T.S. C3 (60-4167 aka as 70-3835) used after engine #GE27208
Triumph Unit 750cc 1973 Ball (Metric) T.S. C3 (60-4167 aka 70-3835)
Triumph Unit 750cc 1981-up (Metric) T.S. Roller CN (60-7362) - Yes, CN!

Triumph Unit 650CC 1963-1965 Ball D.S. C3 (70-1591) - RHP MJ1 1/8-C3
Triumph Unit 650CC 1966-1972 Roller D.S. CN (70-2879) - RHP MRJ1 1/8-CN
Triumph Unit 750cc 1973-1976 Roller D.S. CN (70-2879) - RHP MRJ1 1/8-CN
Triumph Unit 750CC 1977-1982 Roller D.S. C2
Triumph Triple 750cc 1969-up Ball D.S. CN (70-1591) - RHP MJ1 1/8-CN
BSA Unit 500CC / 650CC 1962-1965 Ball D.S. C3 (67-1240 aka Triumph # 70-1591)
BSA Unit 500CC / 650CC 1966-1972 Roller D.S. CN (68-0625) Hoffman RM11L (Currently RHP MJ1 1/8 (Triumph #70-2879-CN) is supplied and shim cup 71-3288 should be used)

It is important to note that in two instances Triumph changed the internal pre-fit clearance specification of bearings without changing the part numbers:
70-1591 used in a Trident D.S. is CN. The same 70-1591 bearing in a Twin is a C3. They should not be interchanged.
70-2879 used in a 650 and early 750 twin is CN. The same bearing used in a 1976-up 750 twin is C2.
John


#711531 - 10/14/17 4:06 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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...the change for rollers in an engine is to manage better the "heavier" loads (with the same size of bearing). More if you tune the engine, in my opinion, if you use two rollers and a tuned engine is better to use a C3 three pieces bearing. The rollers cannot support good the axial load but support pretty good the radial load, you would deal with more heat too, so could be better to have a C3. Yes, I understand that to take that is for what is that three pieces bearing...but

#711534 - 10/14/17 4:42 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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Mt TR7 has C3 bearings both sides. Drive side is a Commando bearing (with special sleeve on the crank). Timing side is NUP306. I built it this way 5 years ago on the advice of Kirby Rowbotham. It has been fine, without any rumbling or knocking from the engine (in fact the engine is quiet for a Triumph).

I built my T140 with NUP306 TS and MRJA 1 1/8 CN DS. This, too, is quiet.


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
#711576 - 10/14/17 8:46 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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70-2879C2 bearing
Click on this link to see Brian Jones letter.
Triumph was having problems with main bearings knocking. This letter also explains when the specification was made.

Tiger; There is no such thing as Superblend bearings! I called FAG in Danbury, CT some years ago. I talked to the engineering department about their superblend bearings and he had no idea what I was talking about!

Watch Jim Comstock - Norton engineering specialist - YouTube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSlargcGQmY
Notice once the indicator passes over the radiused end that the roller is dead flat. No blending to allow for flex as the myth about superblend bearings seems to purport.

Superblend bearings are in the same category as Lucas Welded rotors - they are made from fairy dust in the marketing department to put a band aid on a disaster.

Old time roller bearings had rather little, if any, radius on each end of the roller. When the roller cocked, as it will when a flywheel flexes, it puts undue pressure on the end of the roller and race. To solve this the radius on the end of the rollers of all roller bearings today is more pronounced. The RHP NUP306 has the same feature as does the MRJA 1 1/8. If you want to call that Superblend then all roller bearings made today are Superblends. But there isn't anything special or super about them.

Even with the radius on the end you still do not want to let the roller cock as the flywheel flexes. Increasing the clearance does just that.

A 60-2362 - NUP306 out of the box is CN.

Tiger - Reverb:
70-2879C2 bearing
Click on this link to see Brian Jones letter.


#711581 - 10/14/17 9:59 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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...Mr Healy, is not my intention to be impertinent, but I have a few doubts regarding this; for example: in the letter Mr Jones says one dot, and one dot is C2, two dots CN and three dots C3.
Also the number is blurred, looks like C2¿?
AND the question in that letter is regarding the DS bearing NOT the TS one; then in the chart you d posted, the DS for the T140 is C2...
In the letter they do not talk about the TS bearing.

So, I still think that a tuned 750 should have a C2 and a C3 (as an "insurance")

Thanks

Last edited by reverb; 10/14/17 10:07 pm. Reason: more text
#711601 - 10/15/17 1:14 am Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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The timing side bearing was almost always C3. The change was the roller bearing.

#711604 - 10/15/17 1:45 am Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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So we are all talking about the same thing:
The "C" system explained:
http://www.ntnglobal.com/en/products/catalog/pdf/2202E_a08.pdf

You should scroll down to the charts. Notice that the C2 (0 dot) bearings have the least pre-fit internal clearance. The CN, C3, C4 progressively more.

The DOT system explained:
From Vintage Motorcyclists' Workshop by Radco:

"Bearing Fits
Some knowledge of tolerance and bearing fits will be of assistance to the restorer, if only to be able him to talk the same language as bearing suppliers.
Ball and roller bearings are made to four ranges of tolerances (ed. pre-fit internal clearance) identified by the one, two, three and four dot system (ed. actually today there is more than four). In fact the marking consists of a polished rings, usually in the vicinity of the maker's name on the outer ring face. Thus we have 0, 00, 000 and 0000 types, the significance of which is outlined by Hoffmans as follows:-
0 FIT (ed. C2) "These bearings have the smallest amount of diametrical clearance. They should only be used where freedom from all shake is required in the assembled bearing and there is no possibility of the initial diametrical clearances being eliminated by external causes. Therefore, special attention must be given to the seating dimensions, as the expansion of the inner ring, or contraction of the outer ring, may cause tight bearings. In this respect a one dot bearing should not be used unless recommended by us, when we will be pleased to specify seating fits."
00 FIT (ed. CN)"This grade of diametrical clearance is intended for use where only one ring is made an interference fit and there is no appreciable loss of clearance due to temperature difference. Ball journal bearings for general engineering applications are usually of this clearance".
000 FIT (ed. C3) "This grade of diametrical clearance should be used when both rings of a bearing are made an interference fit, or when only one ring is an interference fit but there is likely to be some loss of clearance due to temperature differences. It is the grade normally employed for roller journal bearings on general engineering applications, but there is an increased tendency towards the use of two dot bearings (ed. CN). It is also the grade normally used for ball journal bearings that take axial loading, but for some purposes even 0000 fit bearings may be required".
0000 FIT " Where there will be some loss of clearance due to temperature difference and both rings must be an interference fit, this is the grade of diametrical clearance to adopt (ed. we use this on Vincent inside main bearings).

Yes it is C2 in Brian's letter. He was changing from a CN to a C2 (less clearance than CN)


#711605 - 10/15/17 1:48 am Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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Quote
The timing side (ed. ball) bearing was almost always C3. The change was the roller bearing.


Not for the 60-7362 T.S. roller bearing! It was specified as CN!


#711635 - 10/15/17 10:37 am Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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Yes, the "Superblend" bearing myth is one of those odd things that has somehow become embedded in history so deeply that nobody questions it. I wonder where, exactly, it started? I have a feeling (though this is based on an unreliable memory of bike magazines in the 1970s, so could well be wrong) that Norton themselves started it, in their advertising/marketing. If so, I'm sure they wouldn't simply have lied. Perhaps what they meant was what you're saying, John, ie: the bearings they fitted had the increased radii at the ends of the rollers? The press (as they tend to) then got hold of the wrong end of the stick and called them 'barrel shaped rollers'.

I'm not sure about the merits of the Commando drive side bearing in my TR7, to be honest. I was happy to go with Kirby's advice, as he's been tuning Triumphs for god knows how long. At least it's reversible, ie: no alterations to the original crankshaft or bearing housing diameters. And so far, it's worked fine.


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#711637 - 10/15/17 10:45 am Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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Superblend was a term concocted by Norton and RHP sales depts to explain why a visually virtually identical roller bearing worked a lot better than the old one, it was a simple change to the edge of the roller where they added more crowning so it did not dig in and becoming common practice through out the bearing industry. As a buyer in engineering I was regularly subjected to this technique by salesmen wanting to justify a higher price than the rest of the competition, some samples and a test in production sorted out the truth and in 95% of cases it was BS. Dormer drills with a special coating did justify their higher price when we factored in the reduction in tool changes but that was rare.

#711660 - 10/15/17 6:43 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Tigernuts]  
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts
Yes, the "Superblend" bearing myth is one of those odd things that has somehow become embedded in history so deeply that nobody questions it. I wonder where, exactly, it started? I have a feeling (though this is based on an unreliable memory of bike magazines in the 1970s, so could well be wrong) that Norton themselves started it, in their advertising/marketing. If so, I'm sure they wouldn't simply have lied. Perhaps what they meant was what you're saying, John, ie: the bearings they fitted had the increased radii at the ends of the rollers? The press (as they tend to) then got hold of the wrong end of the stick and called them 'barrel shaped rollers'.



'Superblend' was the name given to the R&M 6/MRJA30 not the FAG NJ306E, which only inherited the title 'Superblend' from the 6/MRJA30.
Quote

SERVICE RELEASE August 1972
No. N.2/9

NATURE OF RELEASE: Crankshaft main (roller)bearings
MODELS AFFECTED: 1972 Commando (all models)
DISTRIBUTION: Worldwide (Distributors and Dealers)

EXPLANATION:
In order to extend main bearing life, a change
of roller main bearing specification has now been
authorized, and fitted on production engines from
engine number 211891.

The new roller bearing is designated "Superblend"
with an increased load carrying capacity and are
supplied under part number 063906 (manufacturers
part number R&M 6/MRJA30)..........etc.


A January 1973 Service Release regarding the FAG bearing simply states:

Quote
........A new main bearing capable of carrying a much
higher load than any offered before has been
introduced
The new bearing, part number 064118, supersedes
the old type 063906 and will be supplied in lieu
by our Parts Division. The new bearing should
be fitted in pairs.......etc

#711666 - 10/15/17 7:07 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: L.A.B.]  
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Interesting stuff! So the term 'Superblend' was used, by the look of it. But nobody said anything to the m'cycle press about 'barrel shaped rollers'. Just goes to show how BS can spread!

Last edited by Tigernuts; 10/15/17 7:08 pm.

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#711675 - 10/15/17 9:24 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Tigernuts]  
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Interesting stuff alright. I remember reading an article a few years back where John Hudson believed that good quality standard type bearings (ball and roller ) were quite satisfactory in Nortons. He felt that the cost of "superblends " was unnecessary.
Also, Paul Dunstall advocated the use of a high capacity ball bearing on the timing side of his Dunnyracers ( eleven ball instead of eight ). Plus a tighter fitting ( single dot ) drive side roller.

#711681 - 10/15/17 10:26 pm Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Triless]  
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All very well Paul Dunstall recommending a high capacity ball bearing, but try finding one (OK, so maybe that was 30 years ago?). There is, so legend has it, a Koyo 9 ball t/side bearing, but I've looked as hard as possible on the internet and can't find anywhere that can actually supply one.

If anyone has info on current suppliers of these exotic bearings and can put links to the suppliers on here, that would be a great service for everyone.


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#711700 - 10/16/17 6:31 am Re: 1971 Triumph Bonnie main bearing CN or C2 [Re: Tigernuts]  
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts
Interesting stuff! So the term 'Superblend' was used, by the look of it. But nobody said anything to the m'cycle press about 'barrel shaped rollers'. Just goes to show how BS can spread!



Welcome to the internet - where BS spreads faster than malware

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