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#710942 - 10/09/17 1:05 am Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning..  
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 7
Gordon Smith Online content
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Gordon Smith  Online Content
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Victoria, Australia
Hi all, scoured as many past threads as I could find and haven't come across a thread that answers my particular problem.

Did a fairly extensive rebuild, new primary side roller bearing, new timing side-bush and realign, rebore +060 pistons and rings, gearbox bearings , replaced all Oil seals, replaced oil pump with SRM piston type and SRM ORPV as well. Oil tank cleaned out and flushed with a cleaning agent, blown dry all good, seemingly. Oil sludge trap had been removed by previous owner( so didnt remove again).Replaced both oil hoses between oil tank and engine pipes( Correct way around too!!)

Did the oil pump test with hose and cordless driver attached and worm drive removed, got good flow through pump and but return flow back though into tank was very flaky and intermittent, yet through plastic hose into separate oil receptegal looked ok..

Boxed everything back up. got the bike running. Just got steady drips back into oil tank via the usual return pipe. Stopped and checked a few times, still no steady flow. drained sump in between and found approx. 1-2 litres still in the bottom of the engine each time and oil tank was empty . Last time same thing, revved the bike up a few times, to see if any better flow back into oil tank and suddenly engine oil pours out from under the bike near the rear chain case area, with oil tank empty once again. Gearbox oil still in tact and correct quantity.. I use 10-40 multi semi synthetic

Any thoughts from anyone please? could a broken timed breather or incorrectly installed breather be at fault ? Any other suggestions?

Thanks in anticipation

Gordon

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#710962 - 10/09/17 7:29 am Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: Gordon Smith]  
Joined: Dec 2004
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kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


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Scotland
The return side has double the capacity of the feedside so it's a mixture of air and oil. A check for you is to pour some oil into the rocker box and wait until it's drained into the sump. Then repeat your test and with the surplus oil in the sump the return flow will be all oil, then as the sump clears it will revert to a mixture of oil and air and be spurty.

As you have a buildup in the sump you need to check the non return ball is not sticking in the sump pick up, you don't have a magnet in the sump plate do you?

Ps save the semi synthetic oil for after the engine is run in, your rings will never seat with that oil. Use a high ZDDP Dino oil for first 1500 miles changed often.

Last edited by kommando; 10/09/17 7:35 am. Reason: Oil
#710965 - 10/09/17 8:03 am Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: Gordon Smith]  
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Andy Higham Online content
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Andy Higham  Online Content
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Bolton Lancs UK
If you were getting a good oil return to a separate receptacle but poor return to the tank, I would check for blockages in the return pipe or the return fitting and pipe inside the oil tank.
Have you fitted a return line oil filter? The oil should flow into the outer ring of holes and out of the centre threaded hole


1955 BSA B31 400cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350cc
1967 Greeves 360cc Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
Modified Nu-Trak GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
#710967 - 10/09/17 9:19 am Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: kommando]  
Joined: Apr 2016
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Gordon Smith Online content
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Gordon Smith  Online Content
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Victoria, Australia
Thanks Kommando, will try that suggestion on the weekend.

Yes I have a magnetic sump bolt fitted, I should eliminate that possibility I'm assuming. The ball valve is free to move and not stuck in the down position with plate removed

Good point about the oil, will hunt around for some mineral multi grade 10-40 or 20-50 ?

Andy

Have blown out and poked some wire through both sets of pipes in the oil tank, when I cleaned it out, pretty confident those lines are clear of blockages... I have blown some air back up the return pipe from the bottom of the sump plate area, might try that again to be sure.

No extra filters added any where on the bike

Thanks to both of you for your replies so far.

Gordon

#710972 - 10/09/17 11:40 am Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: Gordon Smith]  
Joined: Dec 2004
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kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


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Quote
Yes I have a magnetic sump bolt fitted, I should eliminate that possibility I'm assuming.


It is a remote possibility but best eliminated for a test as it has been an issue before.

20/50 would be my preference, the tolerances and clearances on these engines are as they were in the 50's and 60's so thicker oil is preferable especially in hotter climates.

#710973 - 10/09/17 11:42 am Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: Gordon Smith]  
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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BSA_WM20  Online Content
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Sydney Australia
And when ever the oil pump comes out, replace the ball & spring that sits behind it.
The spring is quite weak and is supposed to be replaced every 30,000 when ( i the day ) you pulled the bike down for a decoke & bottom end.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#711039 - 10/09/17 9:02 pm Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: kommando]  
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Gordon Smith Online content
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Gordon Smith  Online Content
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Thanks Trevor, I did purchase one of each, so will install both those items..

Kommando, thanks for your tips

G

#711409 - 10/13/17 11:51 am Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: kommando]  
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Gordon Smith Online content
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Gordon Smith  Online Content
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Victoria, Australia
Kommando, no joy with adding the oil through the pushrod tunnel , still no flow back to oil tank nor changing the magnetic plug for standard vareity sump plug.

Any other thoughts at all please ?

#711414 - 10/13/17 1:19 pm Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: Gordon Smith]  
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gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Replace the oil return line, another possibility is debris between the suction line and the pump inlet, or an air leak in the same section where the sump pickup meets the cases. its either part blocked on the inlet or the delivery from the return half of the pump.
Coincidentally there is another thread here with almost exactly the same ingredients and symptoms
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=710058#Post710058

At work this kind of thing would happen a lot, Fitter A strips component and plugs drippy oil ways to prevent mess. Sometime later , weeks , days whatever, fitter B reassembles component, fails on test run, strip to find J cloth blocking oil ways, jamming valve/ blocking pump, blocking c/w flow.

Some holes attract insects, there is a chance that some creature is stuck in the oil return ways. My Cagiva fuel tank lid drain pipe gets blocked by flies which crawl into it. see Bee Gap, i cut and pasted this bit from a beekeepers site, applies to other flying insects as well.
We all "KNOW" that bee space is between 4.5 mm and 8 mm and it is also widely reported as being between 6 mm and 9 mm. However it is not a "variable" quantity, it is either 5.3 mm + or - 0.5 mm or it is 9.0 mm + 0.0 mm - 1.0 mm. In other words there are two distinct bands of possible bee space and these occur because in some situations the bees will work individually, but in other situations they need to be able to work back to back.

A gap of:- less than 4 mm... is too small for any but deformed worker bees to pass through. Any spaces, cracks or crevices of this or smaller dimension will be filled with propolis or sometimes a mixture of wax and propolis and on yet other occasions pollen may be mixed in with the filling (I suspect that this is for reasons of porosity or possibly the transmission of light, but I am not certain).

A gap of:- 4.3 mm is a standard European spacing for wires in a Queen Excluder.

A gap of:- 5 mm if used between the wires of a square mesh will make an excellent pollen stripper as the workers can get through, but a significant portion of pollen will be stripped from their legs.

A gap of:- 5.2 - 5.4 mm is a spacing that can be used to exclude or differentiate Drones, as Workers and Queens will freely pass, but Drones cannot.

A gap of:- 6 mm Is the smallest gap that bees will leave between adjacent comb surfaces (outside of the usual clustering area) the bees can defend this more easily and they can work individually within this dimension. The smaller gap around the periphery of the nest, also renders the nest less susceptible to draughts, and may help in maintaining humidity.

A gap of:- 7 mm not used by the bees themselves, but some people regard it as a valid bee space to use in some parts of beekeeping equipment. If this spacing occurs between the side faces of frame top bars they are the least likely to suffer from accretions of wax. Frames spaced at 35 mm pitch (normal Hoffman spacing) that have top bars 28 mm in width give rise to this 7 mm gap.

A gap of:- 8 mm is a popular bee space among those that design their own equipment as it falls midway between the 1/4" and 3/8" figures so often quoted in old books. I used to be keen on this dimension myself, but I have come to regard it as 'neither one thing or the other' and now I favour 9 mm or in some circumstances 6 mm.

A gap of:- 9 mm is the usual space the bees will leave between adjacent areas of capped brood. This allows two layers of bees to work back to back, usually in an oval pattern roughly in the centre of a frame.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 10/13/17 1:33 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
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#711425 - 10/13/17 3:04 pm Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: Gordon Smith]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,827
kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


Joined: Dec 2004
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Scotland
All what Gavin said plus

You can get hose where the inner lining has come loose and the flap created blocks the flow when the oil is pressurised but not if you blow through the same pipe using your lungs. Normally happens with old pipe but worth a check.

Also did you fit a filter in the return line, these sometimes have a non return valve and if fitted the wrong way will block the return. Others have bypass valves and the pressure is set too high.

#711453 - 10/13/17 8:35 pm Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: Gordon Smith]  
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gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
Quote
Did the oil pump test with hose and cordless driver attached and worm drive removed, got good flow through pump and but return flow back though into tank was very flaky and intermittent, yet through plastic hose into separate oil receptegal looked ok..


This statement is very revealing and sounds like there may be a blockage in the return side to the tank.

I would check several areas as follows:-:
- ensure the twin pipe oil manifold is fitted correctly and that the return side manifold is not obscured by misalignment or misplaced a O ring.
- you might want to disassemble the oil pump and check for broken gears, debris etc. Be careful and ensure each gear goes back exactly the same way.
- Repeat the cordless drill test procedure, there should be no leaks from the pump body or gasket interface with the crankcases. Use Loctite 518 anerobic gasket sealant in the pump bottom and top plates, this will stop leaks and maintain pressure.
- Check the OPRV, hopefully you are using the later BSA piston type (or SRM version). I guess its possible that the OPRV is not releasing pressure and not dumping excess oil back to the crankcases/return oil line

Last edited by gunner; 10/13/17 8:44 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#711686 - 10/16/17 12:31 am Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: gunner]  
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Gordon Smith Online content
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Gordon Smith  Online Content
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Victoria, Australia
Thanks Gunner

I will check the joint on the manifold to crankcase, the o ring may have moved, it is a very tight fit when the engine is in the frame

- The oil pump and OPRV are brand new items installed upon rebuilding after engine reconditioning.

Gordon

#711689 - 10/16/17 12:57 am Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Gordon Smith Online content
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Gordon Smith  Online Content
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Victoria, Australia
Kommando

I replaced hoses with new items, can check again.

No extra oil filters installed, just original in tank item

Regards Gordon


Gavin, thanks for your input, will take on board your thoughts and investigate further. I had seen that other thread and thought it very similar to my issue too!!!

Gordon

#711705 - 10/16/17 11:09 am Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: Gordon Smith]  
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gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Insects in brit motors, see this Vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBPB96Yfs18&t=1949s FFWD to 21:30 ( wasp ), 23:10 (ladybird)

Last edited by gavin eisler; 10/16/17 11:14 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#711758 - 10/17/17 1:09 am Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: Gordon Smith]  
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sloppyoil Offline
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Monclova
Better check that hi dollar oil pump too.

#711769 - 10/17/17 3:02 am Re: Intermittent oil return flow from 1968 Lightning.. [Re: sloppyoil]  
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Gordon Smith Online content
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Gordon Smith  Online Content
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Victoria, Australia
Sloppyoil

Being a new item and pumping in one direction the correct way, I just assumed the scavenging should be the same too.

And your right it was expensive !!! When I get it off again, will check that as well...

Thanks for your thoughts

Gordon


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