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#710313 - 10/02/17 7:07 pm 441 clutch hub  
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HillbillyBarr Online content
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Usually this isn't a problem but when I tried removing my clutch hub with the proper tool it just stayed stuck. So like the manual says I gave it a rap with a hammer, no go. Then after trying that a couple times I got a longer wrench and proceeded to pull the threads out of the tool. Now I've still got a stuck hub and no tool. the puller only went in about 4 threads. Any ideas? This is the first time the puller never worked. Thanks, Gene

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#710347 - 10/03/17 12:02 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Fergus, Ontario, Canada
I have done exactly the same tonight on an A65 engine. Like you I normally never have a problem, but this one will not move. I stripped the threads in the tool but when I looked at it it was only stripped about half the length so I carefully cut the stripped threads, dressed it with a file and tried to fit it to a spare hub that I have. It worked. My problem is the threads in the hub I am trying to remove are knackered, or a different thread, but I can only find one tool that is listed with my usual supplier for A65s. and I have used the same tool on engines that span from 67 to 71 with no probs, so don't think it is that.

Anyway, my solution might help you. Cut the bad threads of the tool and try again. If you are lucky and have not stripped the threads in the hub it might work.

I am wondering if, seeing as I am completely stripping down this engine whether I can remove the timing side cover, release the gearbox and drift out the gear box main shaft from the hub on the drive side? Has anyone every done that? Can it be done?

#710349 - 10/03/17 12:26 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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"I am wondering if, seeing as I am completely stripping down this engine whether I can remove the timing side cover, release the gearbox and drift out the gear box main shaft from the hub on the drive side? Has anyone every done that? Can it be done?"

No

Getting the clutch centre off is difficult , its very common for the tool to strip its threads.

If you apply heat to the collar it will help the chocolate stock puller but sometimes thats not enough. You never know, it may have been put on with bearing fit/red loctite, heat will break its grip, plus the expansion will help . Careful when belting the puller to jar it free, remember theres a bearing at the other end.

In extreme cases they can be split with an angle grinder/ dremel with cut off wheel.Cut almost to depth then split with a chisel blow.

Nickl has a good puller which works by pulling from behind the collar, two stiff plates with cut outs to clear the shaft are bolted together in situ, then a strong back is place over the shaft end , large threaded bolts engage the plate behind the centre , a large central jacking screw against the shaft end provides the pressure. Something similar can be made from a suitably sized main bearing inner tool, the type with the two half moon wedges .

A std type 3 leg puller may do the job, but it will probably distort the rim of the offending part.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#710350 - 10/03/17 12:42 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Fergus, Ontario, Canada
Thanks Gavin.

I was about to have a go tomorrow at drifting out the main shaft. Good job I asked here first.
I will buy another puller and see if I can get the threads started. i have done this job a number of times before with no problem. Oh well, all part of the fun of brit bike ownership. I did try heat tonight, about 10 minutes of hot air gun on high playing over the collar and protruding main shaft, but with no luck. I might have to go the dremel route. Thanks again for stopping me really messing things up!

#710359 - 10/03/17 2:19 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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I was preparing to do this same battle on my B44, I bought a new puller (smaller than the A65 on I have). I whittled the engine down to get to it, started the puller into the clutch hub and as I went to turn around for the wrench.... the clutch fell off in my hand. Well then, I guess the sight of a new puller just scared it off.


1967 A65 Lightning
1967 Triumph T20 Mountain Cub
1967 Moto Guzzi V7
1969 B44 Victor Special
1966? Royal Enfield Interceptor
#710389 - 10/03/17 12:45 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Before I create confusion, you cannot strip a unit twin A65 gearbox without removing the clutch centre, however the unit singles can be partially stripped by removing the cam plate pivot ( impossible on the twins until the trapdoor is removed). So the singles can have access to the gearbox guts without stripping the primary, not so on the twins.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#710453 - 10/03/17 11:26 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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HI All,
Regarding the use of heat when trying to remove the clutch centre (shaft adaptor)
Ok this won't work if its loctited on :-(
Rather than using a heat gun or small blow lamp, boil a kettle full of water!
Apply the puller and tension it
Pour the boiling water over the adaptor fairly quickly, this can expand the adaptor enough to free it before the heat has time to travel through
into the shaft, as happens when using a heat gun


John

#710475 - 10/04/17 7:09 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Ok I'll try cutting the puller back to the good threads. Then I'll boil the water but before that I guess I'll try pulling all the parts off the clutch first so it's just the hub on the shaft. I guess I could put the puller in my mill's vise to cut it down then file the threads. I'll let y'all know what happens. Thanks for the idea. Gene

#710591 - 10/05/17 12:50 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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GEt the word PULLER out of your head.
It is not a PULLER like a flywheel puller or a gear puller.
IT is a PRELOADER
It does not pull the centre off, it puts a load on the centre so when you smack it hard with a dead blow hammer ( lead or copper ) the energy from the smack jolts the joint momentarily and then the preloaded stress causes the parts to break free.

Way too many people think you just keep on turning it till the joint comes free, that will never happen using hand tools you will just keep on stripping the threads.

The exception to this is tightening with a rattle gun.
This increases the force with short sharp jolts that in most cases will jolt the joint free before it is full tight.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#710769 - 10/07/17 6:40 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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I smacked the crap outa it with a 2lb dead blow it didn't do squat. Even used a ballpeen. No dice. I tried tightening the center bolt as a last resort. If your rattle gun is an air impact I don't use them on fine threads as they usually pull the threads. I've got a steering wheel puller missing a few threads because of one.

#710770 - 10/07/17 7:34 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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The 'puller' i made engages on the gap in the spline area of the hub, it bolts together and can then exert pressure on the hub without
relying on threads. I made it small enough to fit inside the basket and bolt together, that way it retains the rollers so the whole thing
comes out as a lump. It suits both 3 and 4 spring a65 and triumph clutches but i think the centre hub on the 441 is smaller so it would
require different jaws.
Trevor is absolutely correct though, a sharp smack with a lead hammer is still required.
Over the years i tried various methods, heating with the puller fitted, then sticking some ice and cold water on it will sometimes do the trick.
If photobucket still worked, there were some pictures of the puller there..............................



#710772 - 10/07/17 10:29 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Originally Posted by HillbillyBarr
I smacked the crap outa it with a 2lb dead blow it didn't do squat. Even used a ballpeen. No dice. I tried tightening the center bolt as a last resort. If your rattle gun is an air impact I don't use them on fine threads as they usually pull the threads. I've got a steering wheel puller missing a few threads because of one.


Yes it is an air impact, the biggest 1/2" one I could get at the time , around 1400 ft lbs from memory.
I need this to remove commercial ride on blades which self tighten in use.
However the same gun pops off almost anything, it is the rapid jerking motion that does it , not brute force.

However yours would not be the first centre that some *%#!!! had bolted down with locktite on the taper because the taper was bad and locktite is easier than lapping the center to the mains shaft.

Using a BSA clutch hub extractor ( BSA did not call them pullers ) is a little more comples than many imagine.
What most do not do is clean the threads before they start.
The tool should bottom out on the hub and then & only then should you start to do up the center bolt.
When bottomed out the threads are a lot stronger and will not strip.
I have seen people do the tool up finger tight then strip the threads when doing up the tensioning bolt followed by complaining that the tool is rubbish.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#711024 - 10/09/17 6:50 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Like I said mine would only thread down about 4 threads before stopping. I used a wrench and even a socket. Had a bunch of stuff come up so I haven't got back to it yet. My 1/2" impact is 400 ft/lbs never saw a 1400 ft/lb in 1/2 " drive. I know the BSA manual calls the tool an extractor but every company I seen that sells them call them pullers as they do pull the hub center but I'm not gonna argue over the label of the tool I'd just like to get the hub off. Hoping maybe tomorrow I'll have time to work on it

#711030 - 10/09/17 7:38 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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If it is loctited on, you will need to heat the hub so spit sizzles on it and oil smokes, that will break the loctite bond.
My Aprilia uses loctite on the alternator rotor and heating is the official way to remove it


1955 BSA B31 400cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350cc
1967 Greeves 360cc Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
Modified Nu-Trak GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
#711140 - 10/10/17 8:50 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Ok after making a cush drive puller out of 1"x1/4" bar stock about 4" long I drilled a 9/16 hole in the center then drilled 2 holes for the clutch nuts. After taking 1/4" round stock I heated it and bent it in a V shape and welded it centered on the bar. I screwed on the nuts and with a few slams of a slide hammer it came on off. Now my question is do I have to take off the clutch hub? Can I just use grease to hold the 25 roller bearing in place and reassemble it? Otherwise I'm gonna heat up some water and try to break it free.Thanks

#711401 - 10/13/17 7:16 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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shot of the puller i use fitted to a65 4 spring.

[Linked Image]



#711548 - 10/14/17 6:01 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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I can't see you pic. I sure would like to as I might be able to make one for mine.

#711678 - 10/15/17 10:04 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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[Linked Image]



#711737 - 10/16/17 10:42 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Still can't see it. can you send it to my phone or email? PM me please

#711762 - 10/17/17 1:40 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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"Now my question is do I have to take off the clutch hub?"

The terminology snafu rears its ugly head once again. BSA calls the thingy with the cush rubbers the "hub", and the thingy that's on the taper of the mainshaft the "clutch center". Triumph calls them exactly the opposite; go figure. But since we're dealing with a BSA:

Ok, so you've removed the clutch hub, or cush drive as you called it. Since this is a four-bolt clutch, I assume that the chain wheel is "trapped" in place by the clutch center. You didn't say what your original objective was in doing this job, but if you're not doing a complete tear-down on the engine, and you don't need to remove the chain wheel (clutch basket), then no, you do not need to remove the clutch center. Just stick the rollers in place with grease as you surmised and put it back together.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
#711808 - 10/17/17 3:11 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: Mark Z]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Z
"Now my question is do I have to take off the clutch hub?"

The terminology snafu rears its ugly head once again. BSA calls the thingy with the cush rubbers the "hub", and the thingy that's on the taper of the mainshaft the "clutch center". Triumph calls them exactly the opposite; go figure. But since we're dealing with a BSA:


Mark,

I can assure you that BSA had their terminology correct for the clutch parts for the unit singles. Seems to be the same as the Triumph terminology. In both the spares manuals and service manuals for the unit singles they identify the hub as the part that connects to the mainshaft and the clutch center as the slotted central unit that holds the cush rubbers and drives the smooth plates. Not sure why BSA would have used different terminology for the twins if that is what you are referring to. I just went through some spares books and service manuals to confirm this for the unit singles.

Peter


check out: www.bsaunitsingles.com
2500 BSA part numbers with inventory in stock just for the unit singles!
#711823 - 10/17/17 5:40 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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My reason for dismantling is my worn primary chain. I think I still need to remove the center piece that's on the main shaft because the cush drive won't slid back on, something must be wrong. Notice my name? Hillbilly I'm not the best with words so I'm sorry for the confusion. I'm gonna try cutting the bad threads off the extractor today then pour boiling water on the hub and see if that lets it come off. There was no evidence of Loctite on the cush so I hope there's none on the hub. The clutch basket looks great there wasn't any wear on any of the splines. Like many of y'all I only get a limited time with this as I've got other work ahead of this. Thanks for you patience and help.

Gene a true hillbilly
A bunch of Victors
Triumph Bonneville
Honda V65 Sabre
My Dad's 850 Suzuki L
Honda 50

#711827 - 10/17/17 6:16 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Ok after lookin at my 69 parts book I see what I've been calling a cush drive is the clutch center but what I call the clutch hub is called the clutch hub so at least I'm 1/2 right. Folks have been correcting my speech all my life so I'm used to it. So now I'm gonna mill off the threads of my clutch hub extractor ( not a puller I guess) and try to remove that stuck clutch hub. After that I'm gonna have to do something about the 2 screws that I wasted the hears on trying to remove. They must've made them outa butter steel! Thanks again for the help with my bike and my words

#711835 - 10/17/17 8:03 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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If its the screws that hold the cush drive together, They are peened at the far end , lightly drill the peen and they unscrew nae bother, hub has to come off first, good luck with the centre removal.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#711839 - 10/17/17 8:26 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Oh that explains it. I can do that. I think my clutch center is a might thick in the center. I tried to put it back on and it won't go at all. I tried another one I took off another bike and it slides almost half way on. I took a pot of boiling water and poured it on the hub but no go. I fired up my torch with a rosebud tip but before anything got hot I ran out of gas! Did I mention I got bad luck? Anyway I've decided to leave the hub alone and reassemble it with the clutch center that started to slide on before anything else goes to crap. One good thing about the water was I found the 25th bearing I couldn't find. Thanks again folks yer all alright!

#711841 - 10/17/17 8:48 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Sometimes a bit of hand fitting is needed , if you ease the female splines with a file , "de burr" , it might fit OK.
If the reason for dismantling is to replace the primary chain, then leave the clutch centre in place, it only needs to come off for gearbox work or gearbox sprocket replacement. The clutch, chain sprocket can be rebuilt onto the centre, its a challenge fitting the rollers but it cab be done with grease and tweesers if you are careful. Replacing the cush drive rubbers is a good idea, dont be surprised if the cush inners show a lot of wear, replace if suspect.
Do remember to fit the thrust washer around the centre bearing, usually these are pretty worn, get a new one if suspect, should be about 50 thou thick.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 10/17/17 9:27 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#711856 - 10/17/17 11:42 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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you're email allowance is at it's limit.



#711867 - 10/18/17 1:24 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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HB, I was not picking on you for the terminology confusion, and, it looks like I may have been wrong about it anyway - I was going by what I see in my A65 Spares book.

Ok, as Gavin said, if you can get the chain off/on without removing the chain wheel, then leave the clutch center (hub?) and chain wheel in place.

Now as far as getting the *hub* (cush drive) back on: The spline fitting is a VERY close fit - any sort of burr or irregularity will keep it from going on. Even after close examination and deburring anything you can find, you may find that you have to keep rotating it to various positions until you find the position that works best.

It sounds like you're also talking about taking the cush drive apart - I assume that would be to check and possibly replace the rubbers?


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
#711987 - 10/19/17 2:07 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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NickL I cleared out some pm's. Mark Z I tried another clutch center and it will slide about half way on. I looked at mine and I don't see any burrs or any reason for it not to slide back on. I will try rotating it to see if it clocks in one position. I was trying to get the cush drive apart to see if I could get a puller onto the spider. I've got a new set of rubbers should I take apart the one that slides on and replace it's rubbers? I'll proably use that one as it slides better and has about the same wear. I didn't think you were picking on me. Like I said I'm a true hillbilly and don't always use the right terms. You should hear me talk. I was taught with words like lernt= learned tars=tires earl=oil hunnert=100 plus I usually drop the g on anything ending in ing so a lot of folks don't understand my talking.No biggie Thanks for y'alls help

#713638 - 11/02/17 8:14 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Well today it warmed up around here after a coupla weeks bein colder than a well diggers arse ( noticed how I slipped in a Brit word there?) I took Kevin Roberts advise and used my propane torch to heat up my clutch center and after a few smacks with a large lead hammer and getting the same results I tried the advise of BSA_WM20 and used my impact. I ran it in till it hit then backed it out and after doin this several times Bingo it poped right off! To say I'm a happy man just doesn't even express my feelings! Whoopeee! I'm very thankful to all y'all very much! Now I didn't see any signs of red Loctite at all. All I can see is a bit of a burr on the woodruff key. It's time for a cold one. Thanks again and if any of y'all are over/down/up my way stop in and I'll give you one too!

A Happy HillbillyBarr! Thanks, Gene

#713646 - 11/02/17 9:15 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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ohio, usa
odd that it was that hard to get off, really.

all my stuff is tightened to specs (gawd, or less-- 60 ft-pounds on that little B44 mainshaft seems like too much, so i just use blue loctite and reason), but i can always get it off by screwing in the tool, and seldom ever have to smack it with anything.

clean off any burrs on that shaft, and then do what tridentman recommends and lap the shaft/clutch center with some fine abrasive to make it lock up without so much torque on the fasteners.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#713680 - 11/03/17 2:17 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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Mark Z Online content
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Mark Z  Online Content
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Owego, NY, USA
HBB, you asked in an earlier post if you should replace the cush rubbers. Since you have some new ones, and since you've taken it this far, it would be prudent to at least look at the rubbers that are in there. If they're hard and/or shrunken, they should be replaced.

I assume you'll also be replacing the cover screws with the beat-up heads. You will want to stake them as original to insure they don't back out.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
#713702 - 11/03/17 11:59 am Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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HillbillyBarr Online content
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HillbillyBarr  Online Content
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S.E. Ohio
Yep I've gone this far I'm replacing what I can. I think the clutch hub was tightened too far on the main shaft, kinda like the drag link on a pitman arm. There were no shim washers behind this or the crank sprocket either. To lap the hub should I put some valve grinding compound on the shaft then rotate the hub on it? then clean it all off. I also noticed the seal behind the hob has a small crack/split I guess I'll be calling Peter as I don't think I ordered one when I last ordered parts. I'm hope he has the screws for the ones I damaged in the cush or clutch center. Thanks Mark I will. Do I stake them in back like they were originally or can I stake the heads? Thanks Gene

#713709 - 11/03/17 1:31 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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AML Online content
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AML  Online Content
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NYC & Upstate NY
Gene,
I replaced my clutch rubbers last month using rubbers and screws and other bits I bought from Peter, who in response to my question about staking suggested I use red locktite instead.
HTH
Adam

#713741 - 11/03/17 8:09 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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HillbillyBarr Online content
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HillbillyBarr  Online Content
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S.E. Ohio
Ok I gotta get a seal from Peter also so I'll get screws from him too. I wondered about using Loctite on them. Thanks Adam

#713744 - 11/03/17 8:19 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Once you get the seal out you will probably find the sleeve gear bush which it rubs against has a groove worn in it.

it doesnt seal very well when it is worn, its a complete box strip to get to this and replace it.


71 Devimead A65 750
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The poster formerly known as Pod
#713764 - 11/03/17 10:28 pm Re: 441 clutch hub [Re: HillbillyBarr]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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kevin roberts  Online Content

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Posts: 3,267
ohio, usa
Originally Posted by HillbillyBarr
. . . I guess I'll be calling Peter as I don't think I ordered one when I last ordered parts. I'm hope he has the screws for the ones I damaged in the cush or clutch center. Thanks Mark I will. Do I stake them in back like they were originally or can I stake the heads? Thanks Gene


peter quick has everything and it will be in the mail to you within about ten minutes of him receiving your order.

i won't buy from anybody else for the thumpers.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
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