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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710391
10/03/17 1:29 pm
10/03/17 1:29 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,877
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
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GrandPaul  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,877
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Curiouser and curiouser.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710411
10/03/17 4:09 pm
10/03/17 4:09 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,237
Scotland
kommando Online content
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kommando  Online Content
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,237
Scotland
When I have done all the checks you have done and still it won't start it has always been timing, maybe now too retarded. You set the initial timing at fully advanced with the magnet under the 9 o clock and that should be the pointer on the alternator rotor mark, you have done that so the pointer to mark relationship must be suspect, could be a rotor from something else. Wooden rod down the plug hole is your next option, or just advance the Boyer rotor and see if it makes a bigger sound.

Re: 441 [Re: kommando] #710421
10/03/17 5:18 pm
10/03/17 5:18 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 741
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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gunner  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 741
Farnham, Surrey, UK
A couple of thoughts which may or may not help:-
- although you have 13+ volts at the battery, do you have the same reading at the coil and Boyer power leads? It may be that you have a bad connection somewhere so check all the connections and ignition switch for voltage drop.
- using a rod down the plug hole only gives a rough indication of ignition timing. I would take the primary cover off and fit a timing disc on the rotor end. You then need to find TDC by using a dial gauge or finding a suitably sized bolt screwed into the plug hole to use as a dead stop. Turn the engine over by hand gently until the piston touches the dead stop bolt and note the degrees, then turn the engine backwards and note the degrees. Half the degrees between these two points is TDC.
- from the TDC position you have to turn the engine backwards past the full advance position and then forwards to take up any backlash in the gears
- its fairly tricky to get the Boyer or indeed any EI stator to be spot on since the rotor is turning at half engine speed, so its common to repeat the procedure several times until its working


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710433
10/03/17 7:00 pm
10/03/17 7:00 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
there was full battery voltage at the Boyer box-- the connections and wiring are fine. i already tried jumping the box directly to the battery and didn't get anything different. there's no question that the box is putting out good sparks.

the pointer on the cover and the mark on the rotor seem pretty close to 6.6 mm BTDC on a ruled TDC tool that i use, but i dunno, at this point.

got to go drive frac sand for four days now, but when i get back to it i'll start advancing the spark until it kicks me again.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710438
10/03/17 7:13 pm
10/03/17 7:13 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,023
Stone Creek OH USA
R
Rich B Offline

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Rich B  Offline

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R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,023
Stone Creek OH USA
If you fancy a road trip, I likely have all the bits to put a perfectly good set of points on that bike. laughing

Bring marshmallows to keep the turkey mafia at bay!


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710447
10/03/17 9:07 pm
10/03/17 9:07 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,758
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,758
argyll. scotland, uk
Try swapping the leads at the pickup plate, easy check, if they are the wrong way it puts the timing miles out and a bang in the exhaust is the result.Only takes a minute to try. This happened to me after I took the rotor off, if the rotor goes on 180 out the wrong poles are being seen by the pickups.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710478
10/04/17 7:39 am
10/04/17 7:39 am
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 443
S.E. Ohio
H
HillbillyBarr Offline
BritBike Forum member
HillbillyBarr  Offline
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H
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 443
S.E. Ohio
If all else fails haul it down here and we'll pull the parts off one of my Victors ( aau/points plate, stator and rotor) and install them on yours. Then if we get it running we could reinstall your parts one at a time to find out what's wrong .I've got the time/ tools and working parts. Just a thought. Gene

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710506
10/04/17 2:34 pm
10/04/17 2:34 pm
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 456
new jersey usa
P
pushrod tom Offline
BritBike Forum member
pushrod tom  Offline
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P
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 456
new jersey usa
Ah Kevin, I feel your pain. I had not run my SS for at least 6 months. Symptoms same as yours. A week of kicking with loud backfires etc. and much wire/voltage testing on the Sure Fire. No joy with moving the timing around so I set it on the mark and took it up to my pals shop with the idea of motoring it on the dyno to verify timing and maybe try to start that way. Mario, who has considerably more mass than I do said "Let me try it." Two kicks and off she went!! A big WTF from me and also much joy. So long as it was running we put a light on it and adjusted the carb a bit. Since then I put some AV gas in and it has been working well. That said, I should try it today. If it starts we will take 'er out for a spin. Cheers, PRT

PS OT's tips are right on!

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710655
10/05/17 10:43 pm
10/05/17 10:43 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,305
melbourne florida
B
bodine031 Offline
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B
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,305
melbourne florida
Can't stand over it to start as you found out with the oil cap. I have a 69 VS since 1981. (My Dirt Basher) Boyer, Kuni 30mm round slide. Podronics, and a Bikemaster gel electrolyte MG4L going on 3rd year the gel seems to tolerate the vibration better/longer. 85/140 gear box, Type F ATF primary and Valvoline VR1 50wt engine. Mine is easy to start cold, warm, hot which is a nice thing when you stall it in the mud!!! Big fun bike Good luck with it and enjoy

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710666
10/06/17 1:00 am
10/06/17 1:00 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
thank you all for the suggestions. catching up,

the compression is fine, as is the compression release. the compression does force the piston down after TDC, though. i discovered this while holding the rockers in my fingers and tapping the crank over TDC. it kept turning farther than i had realized, so now i've been using the compression release.

perhaps a test with a 6CA in it would be instructive. i really don't think there's anything wrong with the spark itself, though, as it lights one up strong enough to hurt me if the timing is advanced experimentally. my ankle still pains me after a week or so. timing is apparently spot on, but i'm suspicious.

i've tried swapping the leads to the stator white for yellow (lol, not on purpose) and it didn't make any difference.

i live on the top of big hill, because i've been flooded five times, traumatically, and vowed never to do that again. this weekend i'm going to re-check everything and then start rolling the victor down the hill to see what happens.

at any event, three of these just arrived in the mail:

[Linked Image]

these are bonded rubber to steel, with a 42mm OD and a 25mm ID that can be opened up to about 30mm. the bolt centers are the rare AMAL-only 2-inch, so these can be used to mount a spigot carb to any AMAL manifold base without an adapter. if i can't get a Concentric to work on this puppy, i'll try a VM mikuni with an enrichener circuit and run from there. i understand mikunis lots better than amals.

things like thisare sold for mikuni kits on british machines originally equipped with amals, and cost lots of money. these were US$12 each. the 42mm portion is just rubber, and may not be stiff enough to hang onto a rubber sleeve, which the victor will need if i put a 30mm VM on it. any little 25-30mm OD spigot carb will slip right in directly.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710686
10/06/17 4:00 am
10/06/17 4:00 am
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 65
norcal
L
Lyle Hill Offline
brokesinceacquir
Lyle Hill  Offline
brokesinceacquir
L
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 65
norcal
I have a 68 B44VS starts 1st kick after this procedure.
Turn on fuel with mixture set 1/2 turn clockwise and flood with no ethanol fuel.
kick thru with comp release a couple kicks, and one kick with clutch lever in.
then flood again and position kick lever 10 minutes past tdc with compression release
raise kick lever to top, turn on ignition and do not touch hand throttle when kicking thru,
should start and run on its own, five minutes riding later, adjust mixture back to normal setting
I put a cable tie on the hex extended mixture screw cut a half inch out for a lever

in a perfect world, this bike runs great, good luck

I also see you need work on the front brake, either new shoes or less cable outer to achieve
more than 90 degree leverage before applying brake like I had to do.


ported 32mm, AMAL Premier, Carrillo rod, external oil return filter


Lyle '68 BSA B44VS

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710807
10/07/17 6:30 pm
10/07/17 6:30 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
it runs!

earlier i'd noticed that the black/yellow and black/white wires at the Boyer had been crossed. i thought it was me that had done it and put them back around right. then this morning i had the points cover opened and noticed that they had been switched there too. once those Boyer bullet connections get warm and shrink, they never come apart again, so i left them and went and switched the wires at the Boyer box back the way they'd been.

doesn't matter which wire goes to which as long as the pattern is the same at the box and at the stator.

anyway, i made sure to keep the key switch off until i was actually ready to kick, and then turned it back off if it wouldn't catch. kicked it a few times and it started up and ran. other teething issues to work with, but it goes!


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710844
10/08/17 3:47 am
10/08/17 3:47 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,877
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
BritBike Forum member
GrandPaul  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,877
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
HOORAY!!!

Dang, I sure hope this doesn't become my second "never should have sold it" deals...

I'm keeping my Rickman Montesa 250 for dirt dinking, but it can never be road legal...


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: 441 [Re: GrandPaul] #710845
10/08/17 4:21 am
10/08/17 4:21 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
trade you back for your dreer norton?


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710864
10/08/17 11:42 am
10/08/17 11:42 am
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 456
new jersey usa
P
pushrod tom Offline
BritBike Forum member
pushrod tom  Offline
BritBike Forum member
P
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 456
new jersey usa
Looks like yer in the club now. Got the secret handshake, er kick, and everything!!

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710902
10/08/17 8:04 pm
10/08/17 8:04 pm
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 31
Worcestershire ..near kiddermi...
R
Richard B Offline
BritBike Forum member
Richard B  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 31
Worcestershire ..near kiddermi...
I have a B40 with high.comp piston. Also an old. Boyer. On early boyers they also spark after 5 seconds of the coil energising. So if engine is slowly eased onto comp and the 5 secs is up it cuts off power to coil and hence sparks. This was confirmed to me by Boyer.
But on mine I now ease it over compression (not fussy how much). Then turn on tickle carb then a long easy kick the inertia stored in crank throws it over the next compression and starts. I had the same trouble, but now usually first kick.
If I tickle too much I just give it more throttle.

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710939
10/09/17 12:59 am
10/09/17 12:59 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
i'm pretty sure turning on the key first while i messed with everything else contributed to the problem, as it took a bit of time to tickle and crank the piston up and over. now i know.

i've had a markiii on old T120 for thirty years without this problem, though.

should have paid more attention to the wires like you said, gavin.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710989
10/09/17 1:37 pm
10/09/17 1:37 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,877
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
BritBike Forum member
GrandPaul  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,877
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
hee hee

The Dreer Norton is finally about to get ridden like it should have been all these years. I might just put a new set of Premier concentrics on it, as the FCRs are over the top and can't accommodate filters. I'm also going to make proper headlight mounts for it, the cheesy temporaries just ain't cutting it.

Okay, that's enough off-topic, back to 441s.

Here is the back story to this bike, and it's a decent one:

My first contact with Britbikes as an adult came to me in the form of trading a nice central A/C system that I pulled out of my Dad's house for 5 bikes from a guy in my neighborhood, Keith, that had a small nondescript shop called "Whole Earth Motorcycles" for exactly the reason you might think. I got an almost-rolling '67 Bonnie with the top end off, including the pistons, that had been out in the weather for a few years, a Suzuki Cyclone 400, A Bultaco Pursang 250 flat tracker, Honda ATC90 3-wheeler, and a '68 Yamaha YDS3 GP250 replica (the Bonnie being the Britbike content).

Anyway, Keith rode a BSA441 Victor with 70s Britbike suspension (conical front brake), dirt bike handlebars, SuperTrapp exhaust, and a Mikuni carb. I had been fiddling with a throttle-triggered fuel injector for my Honda CB550 and couldn't get it to do what i wanted, and he seemed real keen on it, so I sold it to him. He was over the moon, as it seemed to be EXACTLY what that Mikuni needed on the 441.

So, down the road a while, my oldest brother expressed an interest in buying the 441 from Keith, and they made a deal. Oscar promptly replaced the Mikuni mess with a proper AMAL carb, and used it to commute for a year or so. Then, he became partner in an engineering firm that more or less frowned on his means of transportation, so they offered him an allowance, and he sold me the Victor. Around that time, Keith had taken in a much more original 441 (although sad and rusty), which I figured I might rather have, as I had by that time become a "keeper of the Britbike faith" so to speak. Since Keith really wanted his old bike back, the deal was all the sweeter for me.

And there we have the beginning of this bike's story! I did a full overhaul, had the frame and black parts industrially painted, and refurbished the bike to a reasonable level of originality, including a new OEM muffler, grab bar, seat cover, and lots of little stuff. The carb was clapped out, but I managed to find an original/correct one that's on it now. I did a bit of cow trailing around our property over the years, took it to a few bike shows where at seemed to be an "old dude" magnet. As my bike collection grew, it sat for longer and longer periods, 'till it was finally parked for the last time over 10 years ago.

I sold off nearly 20 bikes from my collection before I came to terms with letting this one go; I'm really glad it's going to a good home, and that it's breathing once again...


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714151
11/07/17 2:42 am
11/07/17 2:42 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
something odd.

i timed the Boyer on this bike statically, the normal way, putting the alt rotor mark against the pointer and then setting a magnet behind the 9 o'clock hole in the Boyer stator. got it started, rode it a some, then set it up so i could strobe it and be a bit more exact. used a car battery to power the strobe light.

oddly, the digital timing light shows no advance of the timing with rpm--none. whatever the timing mark is set to at idle stays the same at any higher rpm. i didn't recheck battery voltage, but will when i get back to it. the mark advances or retards normally when the stator is rotated.

anybody ever have a Boyer do this?


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714159
11/07/17 5:21 am
11/07/17 5:21 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
yes, at both ends.

they were long ago reversed at the pickup coils (by/bw, and bw/by), and are firmly shrunk together there, so i left them that way and made sure they were reversed again at the transistor box. the actual fully advanced timing is correct, according to the marks in the primary. runs well, just doesn't retard at low rpms.

i thought a Boyer wouldn't run at all on stock timing marks if tbe pickups were reversed.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714178
11/07/17 2:40 pm
11/07/17 2:40 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
shoot, i'm 300 miles away right now. i'll switch em back as soon as can and see what it does.

runs pretty well when its running. i imagine retardable spark advance would make it easier to start.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714218
11/07/17 7:53 pm
11/07/17 7:53 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 741
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
BritBike Forum member
gunner  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 741
Farnham, Surrey, UK
About 10 years ago I had a B40 with a similar problem using a Boyer analogue system, the bike started Ok but when ridden on the road the performance was terrible. After checking the ignition advance using a strobe I found there was none, in other words, the Boyer unit was shot.

I had fondly imagined that EI units were indestructible, however I now believe that they can go bad for various reasons including too high voltage, faulty rectifiers supplying AC instead if DC volts, excessive vibration & heat etc.

Checking the advance curve using a strobe is the easiest way to ensure the EI unit is working, the main problem is ensuring the bike doesnt jump around the garage at 3000 RPM which can make checking the full advance problematic smile


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714232
11/07/17 9:48 pm
11/07/17 9:48 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,096
Bolton Lancs UK
A
Andy Higham Online content
BritBike Forum member
Andy Higham  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
A
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,096
Bolton Lancs UK
On the old Boyer analogue units, if the pickup wires are crossed the ignition will not advance


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714240
11/08/17 12:05 am
11/08/17 12:05 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,746
ohio, usa
people say that occasionally the boyers were crossed inside during assembly. maybe the pickup wires were backwards in the first place to correct this and i put them wrong by matching the colors up. it's an old analog, for sure. can't read much on the box anymore.

i took it out on the gravel roads and hay fields a few days ago and burned up a half tank of gasoline about as fast as it would burn. then the next day i woke up feeling like someone had worked me over with a baseball bat.

if i'd known getting old would be so difficult i would have gotten started earlier.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714272
11/08/17 2:59 pm
11/08/17 2:59 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,877
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
BritBike Forum member
GrandPaul  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,877
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
if i'd known getting old would be so difficult i would have gotten started earlier.

I could not have stated that sentiment any better!


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
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