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#709378 - 09/23/17 4:11 am 441  
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kevin roberts Online content
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ohio, usa
way back in 1978, i remember a bike magazine writer talking about the brand-new XS11, one of the big four's first 11 second bikes.

1978 was the year all that happened, with the honda CBX, the kawasaki KZ1000turbo, the suzuki GS1000, and the yamaha XS11.

anyway, he wrote that the XS11 was so smooth and vibration-less, that on a scale of 1 to 10 . . .

" . . . the XS11 scored a zero, while the BSA 441 victor was as close to an 11 as anyone could stand."

(as near as i can remember.)

ever since then, i've wanted a 441, and i just took one home today.

[Linked Image]


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
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#709381 - 09/23/17 5:54 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Rusty Goose Online content
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Sacramento California
Congrats! I just got one too, though mine is now down to a bare frame and boxes of bits. I hope to have it all together making growling noises for Halloween!


1967 A65 Lightning
1967 Triumph T20 Mountain Cub
1967 Moto Guzzi V7
1969 B44 Victor Special
1966? Royal Enfield Interceptor
#709409 - 09/23/17 12:26 pm Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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pushrod tom Online content
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new jersey usa
Congrats Kevin. Noe you can join the shakey bunch! Mine is lots of fun to ride so long as you are not planning to cruise at much over 60mph. And you can't beat the looks!! PRT

#709479 - 09/24/17 12:06 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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so here it is, a super-nice 1968 victor special i bought from from grandpaul. came from texas to ohio on a truck, and i picked it up in columbus at the cedar rapids terminal, rather than try to coordinate with the truck driver near my house on a work day, with 45 minutes notice . . .

anyway, it's a really nice machine. mostly original, no dents, nothing important missing, and frankly, pretty damn iconic:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

only problem is, i can't get the SOB started, and it's just about broken my ankle kicking back.

i don't have any problem gently raising the piston up and over TDC on compression, using just the kick lever. i can feel when it goes over the top without needing the compression release. unless the use of that device is more subtle than i understand?

anyway, i've spent all afternoon positioning the piston at various distances beyond TDC on the compression stroke, and then kicking machine over. the result is always one of three things.

1) nine times out of ten, it kicks back with a fury that i have never experienced on a twin or triple.

2) every now and then it rolls over without a burble or a kick back

3) sometimes it rumbles as if it's going to start, but doesn't have enough inertia to make it happen.

right now my right ankle is about terminal with kick-back disease, and i have a terrific bruise on my thigh from oil-tank-cap-trauma, and the victor is currently resting victorious in my shop with the lights out.

how do i determine the position of the crank that will allow this thing to start? i've been kicking british machinery for over forty years, but this is my first thumper.

what is the purpose of the compression release? what is it's use supposed to facilitate?

do all victor owners have the same scars i'm going to have?





Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#709486 - 09/24/17 1:35 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Mitch Online content
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Mitch  Online Content
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Anchorage Alaska USA
need to re-set the ignition timing. I could literally start mine wearing my bedroom slippers

#709488 - 09/24/17 1:37 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Chris Johnson Online content
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You're pushing the kicker til it comes up hard on compression, then sneaking it past TDC? Hard to do without compression release or lots of patience. It should be a 1 kick bike, or 2 kicks this way. Kick-back and bruises are a sign or bad practice or bad tune.

Chris

#709489 - 09/24/17 1:46 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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i can gently tap the piston up through compression past TDC with the kick start lever. it's not hard to do and i can feel the piston roll over TDC with my foot.

i start my fixed-advance LSR triumph this way, because otherwise it launches me over the bars.

i honestly have no idea what the compression release is supposed to do for me. the crank rotates against compression a bit at a time if i gently tap on the kickstart, and then moves past it and down on the power stroke. is the compression release supposed to make it easier to position the piston? if so, i'm clueless as to how it's supposed to help.

i'll check the static timing in the morning. can't use a strobe until it starts. it has marks, right? lol, i haven't looked.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#709492 - 09/24/17 2:34 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Chris Johnson Online content
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Chris Johnson  Online Content
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Costa Mesa/Mammoth Lakes, CA
Yea the compression release makes it easier to push over TDC on compression. There should be a full advance pointer behind the little cover on the primary side.

Chris

#709495 - 09/24/17 3:35 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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wadeschields Online content
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Congrats .... Good luck.... Does sound like it needs a bit of fettling. One of my singles wont go past TDC without the release pulled and the other slips past easy like yours is... But that all the release does.... No other magic wink


http://wadeschields.tumblr.com/

Jack of all trades . Master of fun! wink

Beer is not the Answer.... Its the Question..... The answer is YES

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#709497 - 09/24/17 5:17 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Shane in Oz Online content
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It does sound like the timing is advanced. If it's still on points, the auto-advance unit may have stuck.

Other than that:
The valve lifter helps you to position the piston just past compression.
Push down steadily on the kickstart lever until the compression stops the downward movement. Pull in the valve lifter and ease the piston over TDC (about 1/4 of the kickstart arc)
Let the lever back up to the top of its travel and give the famed "long swinging kick" DO NOT open the throttle.
The trick to avoiding kickback is to take the kickstart to the full extent of its travel, where the kickstart rack disengages from the mainsheet pinion so it can't kick back even if the engine does. This is easier said than done.

#709525 - 09/24/17 3:02 pm Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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No Name Man Online content
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SE Ohio
Hey Kevin...one thing you can try which hasn't been mentioned. If it is over-tickled and flooded you have good conditions for backfire. Pull the valve lifter and kick through several times then start over. Works sometimes.


69 A65T
71 B50T
85 K100RS
54/59 A10SR
69 B44VS
71 A65FS
Too much moderation is bad for you.

#709530 - 09/24/17 4:07 pm Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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ouch

me, my limp, and my purple bruise are off again to beard the dragon . . .


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#709549 - 09/24/17 7:24 pm Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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gunner Online content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
Most likely the ignition timing is out and this combined with a worn carb, worn AAU and weak electrical system can cause all manner of problems.

My B44SS has a Boyer fitted together with a JRC 28mm carb (Keihin PWK clone), high output alternator and solid state regulator/rectifier.

I never use the compression release lever and my procedure for starting is as follows:-
- turn on fuel taps and ignition
- pull up the choke button on the carb
- press down on kick starter until compression is felt
- when compression is felt, kick hard

I can usually start my B44 first or second kick hot or cold and I rarely get any kickback.

IMHO kickback is a symptom showing that adjustment of the ignition, carb and electrics is less than perfect, so I would try to get these components working as best as you can, which in other words means replacement with OEM parts or upgrading to modern equivalents.

Additionally, I should mention that when starting I normally have the bike on the center stand and that my weight is approx 186 pounds. These factors probably help to ensue there is sufficient energy to turn the engine without kickback.

In my view, kick-starting with the bike on the side stand or not on any stand will result in some of the kick energy being absorbed by the suspension which will result in less energy being transferred to direct engine revolutions. Therefore I always use the center stand when starting even if it results in more wear (which seems unlikely).

Last edited by gunner; 09/24/17 8:00 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#709566 - 09/24/17 10:52 pm Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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No Name Man Online content
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I see nothing wrong with kicking on the centerstand but neither of my singles have one. I did learn to stand beside the B44 SS I was riding in 1967 to stop bruising my leg on the oil cap. Yes...ouch. Being ignorant of the compression release I just kicked it on past compression. Not being a 250 this often had unpleasant results. Knee into elbow, kicker in the shin, etc. In my opinion if a Victor is in good tune (and you do everything right) it will start with no stress at all.


69 A65T
71 B50T
85 K100RS
54/59 A10SR
69 B44VS
71 A65FS
Too much moderation is bad for you.

#709592 - 09/25/17 4:12 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Rusty Goose Online content
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Sacramento California
Perhaps pull the spark plug and kick it through to make sure you have spark? Or is the kick back your taking about is it back firing? Then never mind, timing is everything.

Last edited by Rusty Goose; 09/25/17 4:14 am.

1967 A65 Lightning
1967 Triumph T20 Mountain Cub
1967 Moto Guzzi V7
1969 B44 Victor Special
1966? Royal Enfield Interceptor
#709594 - 09/25/17 5:17 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Mitch Online content
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Mitch  Online Content
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no center stand on the Victor. the SS had one though. could be the auto advancer.... check that first, otherwise, its time to re-time

#709619 - 09/25/17 2:43 pm Re: 441 [Re: gunner]  
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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Sydney Australia
Originally Posted by gunner


Additionally, I should mention that when starting I normally have the bike on the center stand and that my weight is approx 186 pounds. These factors probably help to ensue there is sufficient energy to turn the engine without kickback.

In my view, kick-starting with the bike on the side stand or not on any stand will result in some of the kick energy being absorbed by the suspension which will result in less energy being transferred to direct engine revolutions. Therefore I always use the center stand when starting even if it results in more wear (which seems unlikely).


Since around 78 when I recovered from ripping off the right hoof I have been starting all my bikes standing alongside with the left foot.
That included the B50 T the A65L the B40 the SR 500 & now the M20.
IMHO the biggest reason for kick back is plain old experience.
People who have been riding them regularly seldome have much in the way of problems.
As for rear spring compression, again not a problem unless you are " jumping from a great hight starting " as opposed to " kick " starting.
However 2 things become very apparent when you stand next to the bike

1) the kick start lever travels significantly beyound vertical before reaching the end of the stroke .
At the end of the stroke the kickstart pedal does not kick back regardless of what the engine does. and it is easier to keep full weight on the pedal till after the engine fires, or stops turning backwards.

2) because your weight is on your right foot and not on your wrists you no longer inadvertently open the throttle as you leap in a great arc around the handlebars.

Weight is not important if you are KICK starting because it is a KICKING action done with the thigh muscles not the bum fat.
At the 2nd BSA national I had the pleasure of showing a nice young lass how to start her B25, standing beside it.
She would have been hard put to top 90lbs wringing wet in full riding gear, but in a matter of minutes she was firing it up without any problems, despite being some what the worse for wear after a late night at the bar.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 09/25/17 2:44 pm.

Bike Beesa
Trevor
#709670 - 09/25/17 10:11 pm Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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GrandPaul Online content
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Laredo (South) Texas, USA
It has a Boyer electronic ignition on it, and I timed it with the help of a couple of the lads at a BMOA rallye way back in 2008 (I think BritBodger chimed in with help!).

Anyway, back then I only weighed 125#, but I could start it fairly easily. I hadn't ridden the bike since about 2009-10.

The carb was cleaned, it is 100% original spec, but the slide has typical wear. Gas tank was bone dry with no residue at all. New petcock with clean hoses. Good spark on a new battery. I put about a gallon of fresh mid-grade in it.

My back is not what it used to be, and I tried a good bit of kicking but gave up before needing 2-3 days to recover.

I really don't see how the ignition timing could be off.

I don't think the valves are off adjustment, but always a remote chance. It's got good compression, so I doubt it.

Try 2-person push starting in 2nd with clutch and compression release pulled in, then stay on the seat and pop the clutch but hold the compression release a second or two. Should fire...

Last edited by GrandPaul; 09/25/17 10:13 pm.

GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
#709678 - 09/25/17 11:26 pm Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
The blue crimp on the coil looks well dodgy. maybe remake the ignition circuit conns if there is enough spare length on the wires.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#709687 - 09/26/17 2:25 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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gunner Online content
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If a Boyer is fitted then you need at least 12.5V at the battery and Boyer box. At lower voltages the Boyer will go full advance, hence the kickback.

See This Link for an explanation on Boyer trouble shooting.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#709690 - 09/26/17 3:13 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Bodie Online content
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Austraaalya
Also another little trick I've found that Boyer has tucked up it's sleeve is if it doesn't fire up pretty soon after you switch the ignition on you'll have an even harder time trying to start it ..... maybe like gunner said "it goes full advance or something ?" .. I don't really know > but it can be damn hard to start by just continually kicking & kicking & kicking ......... Try turning the ignition off just for a second or two then turn it back on immediately before kickstarting again , I read somewhere Boyer goes into a sleep mode or something after about 20 - 30 seconds if switched on & not fired up ? .. takes 2 fast engine revolutions to then re-awaken it > I doubt that's something you'll manage to do on a 441 ...... Turn it off & start fresh again .

Steve

#709718 - 09/26/17 2:09 pm Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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GrandPaul Online content
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Battery is a brand new AGM with EXCELLENT voltage.

You can get all the fast revs you want (to wake up the Boyer) with the de-compressor.

Electrical connection may LOOK dodgy, but I guarantee you can't pull the wire out of the connector by hand. I was taught how to crimp connectors in the Navy.

Last edited by GrandPaul; 09/26/17 2:09 pm.

GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
#709780 - 09/26/17 9:35 pm Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,471
Richrd Online content
Richrd  Online Content


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Springfield Nebraska
Low voltage + Boyer equals kickback

Those coil wires look corroded, hench high resistance.

Kicking a b44 without easing over compression will strip starter gears.

Maybe you need to find out how far you are from No name man.


Rich (member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando interstate
06 Suzu..Suzu.. uh appliance
couple of beesas a ducati
and the Snake Bike
#709839 - 09/27/17 2:06 pm Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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koncretekid Offline
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"Low voltage + Boyer equals kickback" Exactly! Try jumper cables from a fully charged battery or a running machine. Even relatively new AGM batteries have been known not to provide enough amperage to power the Boyer. Once you get it running, check the voltage output at the battery to make sure the charging system is working.

Do you have a leak-down tester? It is absolutely the best way to determine where your compression is leaking. You should NOT be able to ease the kick arm over compression on a well-sorted B44 without the compression release, as the piston will rotate way past TDC if the compression is good. So flood the carb, leave the throttle closed, even back out the throttle stop a couple of turns to begin with (it may have been opened too far by someone else), ease it over compression using the compression release, let the arm come back up, and give it a good full swing kick. If it doesn't start after two kicks, then open the throttle stop 1/2 turn at a time. Once you have it running and warmed up, adjust the carb settings to get it to idle (well we call it "idle", but on a single with an AMAL, it doesn't idle like a twin!) When it's hot, you may have to open the throttle a bit to start it. But when the motor is cold, screw in the throttle stop about a half turn after flooding the carb, and it should start. Only back the throttle stop out after the motor is warmed up. You need to find some of those extended throttle stop screws so you can adjust it with your fingers.

Easy, peasy!

Tom

Last edited by koncretekid; 09/27/17 6:31 pm. Reason: out instead of in

Life's uncertain - go fast now!
#710371 - 10/03/17 5:17 am Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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ohio, usa
damn, this job schedule is awkward. four on, four off, switch day for night . . . no time for the important stuff like cursed victors.

anyway, here's where i am:

--the motor has killer 160 psi compression, which is why it did such a number on my ankle earlier.

--pushrods are in the right places, and the valves are adjusted correctly. compression release has a bit of free play in the wire.

--timing mark on the rotor corresponds to 6.5 +/- mm on a timing tool stuck down the plug hole, so it's where it's supposed to be.

--AGM battery is 13+ volts.

--the Boyer is now set according to specs with one rotor magnet looking out through the 9 o'clock hole in the stator, when the timing mark in the primary cover lines up with the pointer. only one pointer in the cover. it was a bit advanced earlier, which is why it kicked back so hard. doesn't do that now.

--the Boyer produces a miniature roman candle of sparks at the plug when the black and white wires are scratched together. i have an ancient in-line red neon timing light, and when it's hooked up it also flashes several times when i kick the motor over with the plug screwed into the head. so there's a spark in there, because i can see it.

--carb is a 930, with early screw-in 25 pilot jet or late no pilot jet (i've tried two bodies), 220 main, 107 needle jet, two-line needle set in bottom (or middle) groove, no. 3 slide. i've poked out the pilot circuit with a no. 78 drill, and everything else is clean inside and blown out with air.

--there's fuel getting into the cylinder (it kicked back like a mule at first), and if i stick a lit propane torch down the plug hole after i kick for a bit, i get a nice little WHOOM . . . gas is certainly getting in there.

so i have compression, spark, and fuel. but when i kick it all i get is a single thump from the exhaust, sometimes two. never any more than that. after a while i might can get a backfire.

all i can think if is that maybe the Boyer stator is sparking the motor way retarded. when set in the six o'clock hole, it kicked back, hard, every time--obviously too advanced. but set in the 9 o'clock hole it has not kicked back one time, but still never tries to catch.

my window is closing for the next four days because of my work schedule, but when i return to it i'm going to try advancing the spark at the Boyer stator a little at a time, ignoring the alternator timing marks. i already know it's possible to have it set too advanced, so if it's too retarded now maybe i can creep up on the magic setting.

the Boyer box is marked "BSA and Triumph singles," but there isn't any marking on the stator. i would have thought any stator would have worked with any 360-degree twin or any single, but maybe not, and maybe i have a mismatched setup? did BSA ever make a 441-250 primary cover with the pointer in a more retarded position? maybe i have the wrong cover?


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
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