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4CA ET ignition wires #707652
09/08/17 12:12 am
09/08/17 12:12 am
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NJ USA
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Mori55 Online content OP
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I'm getting my 67TR 6C back together. Got the jugs in stator hooked up. Put the auto advance in.
I put the points on the plate with condensers. My problem is I can't seem to get the wires routed right around the points and condensers. No matter how I do it there's something interfering with them.
Why is it the simplest things that are the biggest pain in the ass. Plus now I'm getting tired and frustrated. Time to walk away before I screw something up. Only thing I didn't take a pick of. I looked in the manual but the pic doesn't seem like it'll work that way. The cover will hits.

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Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707657
09/08/17 1:52 am
09/08/17 1:52 am
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Frazier Park, CA
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Chris Johnson Offline
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Did you use new condensers? The Daiichi and Lucas (reboxed Daiichi) are too long and ground out against the timing recess. Otherwise it should all fit under the points cover.

Chris

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707658
09/08/17 2:21 am
09/08/17 2:21 am
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Mori55 Online content OP
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I bought them but like u say they are to long. Actually the old one I trstested before I pulled it apart had a stronger spark.
It's just the routing of the wires that's giving me a headache.
Also since the ads off I can see top dead center real good. How do I static time it ? The manual say have the points starting to open when the piston is 1/32 from tdc. Does this sound right ?

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707667
09/08/17 3:46 am
09/08/17 3:46 am
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Frazier Park, CA
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Chris Johnson Offline
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I don't trust timing by piston position. I'd follow the procedure in the workshop manual.

Chris

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707671
09/08/17 9:30 am
09/08/17 9:30 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,236
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Mori55
67TR 6C
points on the plate with condensers. My problem is I can't seem to get the wires routed right around the points and condensers.
I looked in the manual but the pic doesn't seem like it'll work that way. The cover will hits.

Originally Posted by Chris Johnson
The Daiichi and Lucas (reboxed Daiichi) are too long and ground out against the timing recess. Otherwise it should all fit under the points cover.

Originally Posted by Mori55
I bought them but like u say they are to long.

Given fifty years ago Lucas supplied and Triumph (and everyone else) fitted a better points plate (6CA) and moved the condensers out of the points compartment because engine heat shortens their life, and you're having difficulty with modern parts in an unsuitable position, why use the inferior points plate and condensers mounting? confused

Regards,

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707672
09/08/17 9:45 am
09/08/17 9:45 am
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 134
Wiltshire England
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DUHC Offline
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Wiltshire England
Mori55 - I echo Stuart's good technical reasons for updating to 6CA. Plus, I agree with your frustrations with 4CA arrangement and lack of space which made me change to 6CA set up. Bought secondhand 6CA points, plate and auto advance off eBay and located MGB condensers (v cheap in UK) up near coils. Much easier to set up and more accurate to time on each pot. .

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707675
09/08/17 11:17 am
09/08/17 11:17 am
Joined: Dec 2004
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Scotland
kommando Offline
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Its important to get the 6CA AAU as well as the 6CA points plate, the 4CA cam creates secondary bounces and sparks leading to seized pistons which the 6CA cures.

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707676
09/08/17 11:18 am
09/08/17 11:18 am
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Mori55 Online content OP
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Well unfortantly I just had the rotor remagnitized and a new stator. Plus I reall y didn't want to have to replace the harness in the bike. I was trying to keep it original. So as of now I'm stuck with what I have.
My workshop manual says that's how you setup the points with top dead center as far as I can tell

Last edited by Mori55; 09/08/17 1:01 pm.
Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: kommando] #707695
09/08/17 1:21 pm
09/08/17 1:21 pm
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Mori55 Online content OP
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Kommando , so that means I'd have to change the rotor and stator and wiring harness since this is a ET ignition bike ? I'm just confused with this. I k ow you can't run the 6ca aau with this system. I don't even have a battery box.

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707713
09/08/17 3:38 pm
09/08/17 3:38 pm
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Chris Johnson Offline
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You have to keep the ET specific AAU with its reduced range and different cam profile. The wiring harness doesn't change but you have to install the condensers near the coils... you can wire them into the connector between the points wire and coil.

6CA points plate is the same for BSA twins, in case you find them to be offensively expensive when sold as a Triumph part.

Timing requires you to accurately locate TDC, roll the engine backward to your full advance position (37, 39, or 41 degrees BTDC) lock the AAU at full advance, adjust the points to just open at this point. Repeat for the other side.

Chris

Last edited by Chris Johnson; 09/08/17 3:41 pm.
Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Chris Johnson] #707722
09/08/17 4:36 pm
09/08/17 4:36 pm
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Pacific northwest
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quinten Offline
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as a cost-saving measure
keep the 4CA points plate and the special et cam profile ... and just fit your condensers remotely , up near the e t coils
the points bounce problem with some 4ca points plates was for Kettering ignitions

the et ignition does not "dwell or charge the coils " ... it's using a different cam
the 'dwell' or potential, is held as magnetic flux is in the ET stator. ..until the moment the points open.
at which point it races, at the speed of light , from the et stator. ..
through the ET coil (Transformer ) .. to the spark plug

you still have to time the 4ca points properly
by manipulating the Gap of the points. ... but you don't need any new parts. ...to make t what you have work

.

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: quinten] #707759
09/08/17 8:48 pm
09/08/17 8:48 pm
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Frazier Park, CA
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Chris Johnson Offline
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Originally Posted by quinten

as a cost-saving measure
keep the 4CA points plate and the special et cam profile ... and just fit your condensers remotely , up near the e t coils

.


You still need condensers at the 4CA plate to act as the termination point for your points spring and wiring.

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Chris Johnson] #707778
09/09/17 12:04 am
09/09/17 12:04 am
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Mori55 Online content OP
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Well can someone let me know how to static time this to get it running ? I have theTdc tool and the heads off. Any help would be a appreciated. This is all new to me.
I think what you guys are saying is lock the aau full advance the have the points just starting to open a tdc? Is this correct ?

Last edited by Mori55; 09/09/17 1:14 am.
Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707782
09/09/17 12:52 am
09/09/17 12:52 am
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Frazier Park, CA
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Chris Johnson Offline
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You need to know at which position your alternator rotor is mounted. It should be driven by a peg on the backside that fits into one of three holes. S = 37 degrees, M = 39 degrees, R = 41 degrees. If the rotor is driven by a woodruff key, you don't have an ET rotor.

-Set both breaker point gaps to spec (.012-.016"?).
-Start by engaging the 'S' hole on the alternator rotor.
-You can now use your TDC tool to lock the engine at TDC.
-Mount your degree wheel securely to the crankshaft.
-Mount a pointer on the crankcase that points to 0 degrees/TDC.
-Find a way to force your AAU fully advanced against the springs and lock it there.
-Remove your TDC tool.
-Looking at the primary side, turn the engine CW to 37 degrees BTDC on the degree wheel.
-Rotate the points plate so the breaker points closest to the points cam just begin to open, verified with a light bulb or buzz box or cigarette paper.
-Turn the engine one full turn again to 37 degrees BTDC.
-Adjust the other contact breaker to just open using the same method to verify opening. With a 4CA you can only achieve this by varying the points gap (close to retard, open to advance) and you may have to go back and forth a few times to find the best balance to keep both points gaps in spec. A 6CA allows independent adjustment without having to fudge the points gap.
-Release the previously locked AAU.

Chris

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Chris Johnson] #707783
09/09/17 12:58 am
09/09/17 12:58 am
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quinten Offline
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Originally Posted by Chris Johnson
Originally Posted by quinten

as a cost-saving measure
keep the 4CA points plate and the special et cam profile ... and just fit your condensers remotely , up near the e t coils

.


You still need condensers at the 4CA plate to act as the termination point for your points spring and wiring.


true, i didnt think of that.
it makes the mod more complicated.
the wire and points need an insulated termination point, but it doesn't have to be a condenser fitted ...right there.
.. if a simple mount was fabricated , larger or generic condensers could be remotely teed-in anywhere in points supply wire.


.

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707784
09/09/17 1:13 am
09/09/17 1:13 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,412
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline

DOPE
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"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: kevin roberts] #707787
09/09/17 2:26 am
09/09/17 2:26 am
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Frazier Park, CA
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Chris Johnson Offline
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Originally Posted by kevin roberts


Not ET compatible.

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707830
09/09/17 3:49 pm
09/09/17 3:49 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,412
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline

DOPE
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ohio, usa
bummer

that usually shortcuts the 4CA conundrum. i've cussed the too-big condensors as well.


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Chris Johnson] #707870
09/09/17 11:38 pm
09/09/17 11:38 pm
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Mori55 Online content OP
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Thanks that really makes it simple. Only thing l need is a degree wheel. I acutuall have the paper one that's in the parts book that could just glue to a thin piece of plastic or something till I order one. Is there any particular one I should order ?

Last edited by Mori55; 09/09/17 11:57 pm.
Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707875
09/10/17 12:34 am
09/10/17 12:34 am
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Chris Johnson Offline
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The paper one will get the job done if you're careful. I would recommend a proper aluminum or plastic wheel and I'm sure someone sells a kit with wheel and adapter to make it most straight-forward.

Chris

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707958
09/10/17 9:44 pm
09/10/17 9:44 pm
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Mori55 Online content OP
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I saw this one. Goes on the exhaust camshaft. Can I use this ?
Or get the other type ?
https://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/triu...agsab1gIVSjyBCh0NJA0IEAkYAiABEgLHYvD_BwE
Or this type ?https://fagengine.com/franz-and-grubb-triumph-degree-wheels-in-stock/

Last edited by Mori55; 09/10/17 9:55 pm.
Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707961
09/10/17 9:55 pm
09/10/17 9:55 pm
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quinten Offline
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Originally Posted by Mori55
Thanks that really makes it simple. Only thing l need is a degree wheel. I acutuall have the paper one that's in the parts book that could just glue to a thin piece of plastic or something till I order one. Is there any particular one I should order ?


scalable print out here :

https://www.blocklayer.com/degree-wheel.aspx

print it to CD size, or scale and glue it to any disk you happen to have around .

Engineering choices are dependent on the resources available
meaning there is often more then one way to skin a cat

so for reference only, gleened from a triumph t120 tech Bulletin ;
full advance timing of 38* BTDC. .... is equal to. ...(27/64" ) for the old school , down hole piston method
and for E.T. static, slack plate timing with a 5* advance ... its 28* BTDC. .. down hole postion = ( 15/64 " )

.

.

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Mori55] #707964
09/10/17 10:07 pm
09/10/17 10:07 pm
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Frazier Park, CA
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Chris Johnson Offline
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The exhaust cam degree wheel works but can be frustrating as you're making adjustments through the slots in the wheel. You probably need the early style unless your exhaust cam isn't original to the bike. F&G's is a fine unit (out of stock last time I looked) but you still need a way to attach it to the crankshaft.

Chris

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: Chris Johnson] #707984
09/11/17 12:45 am
09/11/17 12:45 am
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Mori55 Online content OP
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That's what I wondering on how to attach to the crank. Yes cams and all are original. When you attach to exhaust cam what way to you turn it ? Is it opposite ?

Re: 4CA ET ignition wires [Re: quinten] #707987
09/11/17 12:49 am
09/11/17 12:49 am
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Mori55 Online content OP
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Quinton ,That's with the ET AAU lock full advance ? I have the head off so measuring is no problem.
This would be the easiest way.

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