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#704471 - 08/09/17 10:10 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
i use P80 ...
I'd never heard of the stuff before but it sounds quite useful. It comes in varieties with drying time from 20 min. to 2 hrs. Any of them sound like they'd be fine in the garage, but the 20 min. version seems best for the road. Which variety do you use?



i looked it up again-- the stuff sells on eBay for ten US dollars for a 10-ml squeeze tube:

[Linked Image]

this is what i use:

[Linked Image]

no specifications on the container, but the manufacturer is international products corp. the only two types i can find there are standard and food-contact formulations.

https://www.ipcol.com/assembly-lubricants/p80-emulsion

it's expensive, but like i said, search on it occasionally in eBay. i bought a quart there for US$19.99, and saved over 900 bucks.

better not be fake.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 08/09/17 10:17 pm.

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#704494 - 08/10/17 4:22 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Originally Posted by johnm
For the past 4 years I have been in Eastern Europe and have destroyed two tyres on potholes.
I just returned from a short trip to Los Angeles. Earlier today I drove to a house in the Hollywood hills on a very twisty series of streets where my speed in many places was limited by the condition of the streets, not by the twists and curves. I rounded one corner and hit a "ripple" in the concrete so high and deep that the car bottomed out.

After my visit Waze gave me the option of a longer, but faster route back to LAX with all but 3 miles of the 17 on city streets. Some stretches were fully "up" to Eastern European standards, and even the best stretches were no better than any of the streets I drove on in Russia in June (where the harsh winters have to be harder on the roads than the mild So. Calif. weather).

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
the only two types i can find there are standard and food-contact formulations.
The manufacturer's web site has a table showing six types, with drying times ranging from 20 min. to 2 hours:

https://www.ipcol.com/products/assembly-lubricants/

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
The stuff sells on eBay for ten US dollars for a 10-ml squeeze tube
It's always worth looking on Amazon.com because often products are less expensive there than on eBay. I just found it for $9.29 including shipping (although that isn't much of a savings in this case, it's still 70 cents).

There have been two new twists in the piston saga. When I arrived home the piston was waiting that I already had ordered from Draganfly before "discovering" the existence of the Omegas. Although Draganfly is clear that they supply several different brands, I assumed it would be a JP. It's a Gandini. So, now I have to research its reputation.

The other twist is offline someone said there have been reports of problems of partial seizures with Omegas when used in Ariels. I've asked for additional specific details. I note that when I ordered the Omega I was sent a scanned page from an old Ariel manual showing clearances, rather than anything issued by Omega itself. No matter what piston I use I'll need to know the proper clearance to keep it from seizing.

Meanwhile, "piston" moves from the 'problem solved' list back to the 'needs research' list. That's not progress. Sigh...

#704497 - 08/10/17 5:51 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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" Some stretches were fully "up" to Eastern European standards "

Well I am surprised.

My own country, New Zealand, has slowly been improving our roads but the population density, country area, mountains and geology are not going to support a lot of motorway.

Much of the geology consists of young soft Tertiary sediments (especially in the North Island) and being on a major plate boundary there are plenty of earthquakes to keep the hillsides moving !!!

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/pro.../kaikoura-earthquake-update-20170804.pdf

#704506 - 08/10/17 10:49 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: johnm]  
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california is the same way. anywhere a highway crosses an active fault the road is patched-together like mad max


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#704638 - 08/11/17 4:26 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
offline someone said there have been reports of problems of partial seizures with Omegas when used in Ariels. I've asked for additional specific details. I note that when I ordered the Omega I was sent a scanned page from an old Ariel manual showing clearances, rather than anything issued by Omega itself
I've now heard from Omega. I supplied them with the details of the 1928 all-iron engine in which their piston would be used and they responded with the clearance they say is correct: 0.0037". If I didn't know any better and actually used this official clearance, piston seizure would be inevitable.

I had a long, ahem, boring talk with the now-retired machinist from my friend's shop (the guy who did the beautiful job piecing back together my Spitfire frame 20 years ago). He has bored countless motorcycle cylinders in his life and still does so part time. It happens that he bored the cylinders on the two Gold Stars that came to me via a deceased acquaintance.

He said that guy always had him bore cylinders 0.002" over the recommended size so there never would be a risk of seizure. He also said the only downside was there would be increased sound of piston slap on first startup until the piston quickly expanded into the much more slowly expanding cast iron cylinder. However, the additional noise isn't much since when my Aussie visitor rode the BB last fall he never complained about piston slap. Then again, he never complained about anything else during his visit...

An old Ariel manual recommends a clearance of 0.005"-0.007" at the extreme end of the skirt using the pistons of the time. As soon as the Omega piston arrives from England I'm going to make an appropriate jig, instrument them with thermocouples, and accurately measure the thermal expansion coefficients of it, the Gandini, and the Heplex/Hepolite. Based on what I find I'll properly correct for the value and aim for a bore giving 0.009" clearance. Or not, since in the process of reading everything I can find on the causes of piston seizure, lubrication is emerging as the real culprit, with insufficient clearance (i.e. seizure) the symptom not the cause.


Last edited by Magnetoman; 08/12/17 6:13 pm. Reason: added "or not..." as last sentence
#704676 - 08/11/17 11:06 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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The front tire fought me every step of the way but I finally got the bead seated.

When I first tried today a ~10" section again wouldn't seat, but it was a different section than before (I had marked the tire and the rim). Even ordering a tube of P-80 that won't be delivered for a week didn't cause it to seat immediately after I spent the $10 as one would have expected.

What finally worked was to deflate the tire and unseat the entire problem side. I then held the problem section of the tire with two tire spoons almost to the point of starting to remove the tire from the rim. At that point I added some pressure (requiring all three of my hands to accomplish this). As soon as the tube had sufficient air in it to push against the tire with some degree of force I pulled the spoons out, leaving the tube to keep the bead from slipping back toward the center. I quickly continued to add air. Whew.

It's not as if the wire brushing and painting did nothing. Staring with my first try today the bead on the opposite side of the tire completely seated once the pressure was high enough. Previously, there were ~10" sections on both sides of the tire that wouldn't seat. However, each time I released the air today I could hear the bead on the other side pop off the rim the as the pressure dropped. Each time I added air it would pop back on again.

I put 50 psi in the tire, one side fully seated and the other side all but 10", and put it into the sun to bake for an hour while I ran an errand. After I returned, this time when I released the pressure to add more soap and swear words the bead on the other side stayed in place instead of popping back off. So, fingers crossed, there's hope both sides of the tire will stretch enough that it will be possible to reinstall it, if necessary, without superhuman effort to get the beads to seat.

With the tire now on the wheel and the wheel on the bike I'll be taking a break from the Ariel until the Omega piston shows up. I have to be sure two of my Gold Stars are in shape for a ~1000 mile ride early this fall so I'll turn my attention to those bikes for a while.

p.s. The custom-made 0.093" copper compression plate I ordered just three days ago arrived in the mail today. It fits perfectly. If anyone needs something along these lines the company is:

Lani Visconti
Copper Gaskets Unlimited
gasketman@cox.net

As I wrote in an earlier post I don't know yet if I will use it. But, it's very nice to know I have it in case I do decide to use it. Even though there isn't much to the design it would have taken quite a while to machine such a plate myself on my manual mill.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 08/11/17 11:34 pm. Reason: added p.s.
#704727 - 08/12/17 1:36 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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The Norton using the JP pistons will be set up at 5 1/2 to 6. The 1915 was a little tighter but it uses the original cast iron piston. I would mention again about not using an oil control ring at the bottom groove.

Copper Gaskets Unlimited is a great company. Used them several times. Jack used to say " never fabricate something you can buy cheaper". That copper gasket certainly falls into that category.

#704760 - 08/12/17 3:50 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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i use their stuff on my LSR machine, base gasket and rocker box. simple, re-useable, and high quality.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#704936 - 08/14/17 1:34 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Originally Posted by RPM
I would mention again about not using an oil control ring at the bottom groove.
Please explain why you say this. Is there a source(s) with information on this that you can point me to? I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

It's going to be two weeks before I get back to the Ariel. Meanwhile, the Omega piston arrived so the following are the weights of the complete assemblies (piston + rings + pin + circlips) of the three pistons I have for post 1935 500 cc Ariels (or, in my case, a 1928 Ariel with its connecting rod bushed down from 1" to 13/16" for the smaller gudgeon pin use in the later pistons).

Heplex (used) +40, 6.2:1
10793 cast inside
467.5 g

Omega +60, 7.5:1
6425.0.2 etched on crown
435.0 g

Gardini +60, 7.5:1
P810D-152 on box (only the bore in mm is etched on crown)
515.5 g

I measured all of these on a calibrated scale accurate to +/-0.5 g.

At present I have no idea how much the factory-original piston assembly with its 1" gudgeon pin weighed, nor the optimum balance factor to use. Knowing the former would allow me to calculate the balance factor used by the factory (assuming when I disassemble the crankcases I don't find "modern" machining marks indicating it has been altered). The reason this is very important can be seen from the following calculation.

As can be seen from my earlier post, there is a difference of 80.5 g (2.8 oz.) between the Omega and Gardini. If I pull a number out of the air for the weight of the small end of the rod (say, ~100 g, since it's very roughly the size of the gudgeon pin) in order to estimate the effect of this on the balance factor, it means the total weight to be balanced if the Omega were used would be:

435 g + ~100 g = 535 g.

If the balance factor with the Omega happened to be, say, 66% that means the weight balanced by the flywheel would be:

.66 x 535 = 353 g

Given this estimate, this means if instead the Gardini were substituted the balance factor would change to

353 g / (515.5 + ~100) g = 57%

Because this is a crude estimate the exact numbers aren't significant. What is significant is that this calculation shows the choice of these two aftermarket pistons would affect the balance factor by a very large amount. Clearly, such differences would have a significant effect on the vibration I will be subjected to for 4000 miles, which is why I'm spending the time required to try to get the balance factor "correct" rather than using some value pulled out of the air.

#705014 - 08/14/17 8:51 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
some pictures of where you're at. dunno where you want to store them
Pictures of the entire rebuild await uploading from my computer once that problem is solved by Morgan or someone else.

Originally Posted by chaterlea25
Selecting material for the valve guides and some decent quality valves will enhance the reliability
Keeping road dirt away from the valve/ guide area will help a lot
I should be getting to the valves and springs before much longer. Unfortunately, I don't see any obvious way to enclose (or semi-enclose) the valve/guide area without degrading air flow to the cooling fins of the iron head. But, maybe once I start work on it I'll see a way to avoid dirt without affecting cooling.

Originally Posted by chaterlea25
In my experience decoking is not necessary after say 2000 miles (half way)
This is welcome news. It will save a lot of money (for a second piston) and time (taking off the head at the halfway point and discovering the 2nd head isn't needed). But, a new poster to this thread (KevinN) rode an old inlet-over-exhaust Harley in the previous Cannonball and wrote elsewhere that he decoked it every few days. KevinN, if you're still following this thread, was the decoking you did essential, or incidental to other work? Was the carbon buildup primarily around the exhaust port, which might be hotter than mine(?) because of the flathead design of that part of the head? RPM, did you have to decoke your Nortons?

On the subject of the piston, I've now made measurements of it and of the bore. I carefully calibrated my tenths-reading 3"-4" micrometer before starting, and used that micrometer to zero the bore gauge with its own tenths-reading dial, so the absolute and relative values of both are accurate to ~0.0001" (a tenth of a thou.) I'll just give representative data because I measured the piston and bore at the top, middle, and bottom and front-to-back as well as side-to-side so there is a lot of data.

For the piston clearance an old Hepolite sheet recommended 1 thou./in., for ~3 thou. total. For a Gold Star BSA recommended 2.5-4.5 thou. total for touring models and 4-6 thou for competition. Measured just above the bottom of the skirt from front-to-back the clearance of my Ariel's piston is 5.1 thou. when at the top of the cylinder and 4.4 thou. at the bottom. Side-to-side clearance is quite a bit more at 14 thou.

As for the rings, an old Ariel manual recommends 6-8 thou. end gap. Other recommendations are 3 or 4 thou./in. which would be 9-12 thou. What I found was the top compression ring was gapped at 22, the bottom at 25, and the oil ring at 26 thou.

The cylinder is round to within 0.2 thou. at the top and 0.3 thou. at the bottom. The cylinder tapers by ~0.7-0.8 thou. from top to bottom. Although vertical lines run from top to bottom around the entire circumference of the cylinder wall it feels glass-smooth to the touch. Either the rings were fully bedded in or it wasn't properly honed to begin with. I have to wonder if the vertical lines are due to the cylinder not having been thoroughly cleaned of abrasive after honing.

All in all, the piston and bore (but not the rings) are within reasonable spec, all things considered. From this data it seems the cylinder either was bored specifically for this 40-over piston, or it had been previously bored for a 40-over piston and the present one happened to fit "good enough". However, the piston is quite scuffed (i.e. vertical scratch lines), especially on the front and back faces but also to some extent near the bottom of the skirt on the sides as well, and nicked all over the top from bouncing something like a piece of broken piston ring. Unlike the lines on the cylinder wall, which are more like stains than scratches, the scratches on the piston are quite rough.

OK, from the above I can tell the previous rebuilder installed a very worn 40-over piston using too-wide ring gaps in a cylinder that had been bored to reasonable, although not precision, tolerance. If I had another 40-over piston on the shelf, which I don't, I could hit the cylinder with John Healy's favorite 180-grit hone and see if the clearance was OK-ish enough to use that piston. But, I don't have another piston of any size so it seems the only reasonable thing to do is look for a suitable 60-over piston and bore the cylinder to match.

One possibility to look for as a replacement is a similar "later" Ariel piston, although in 60-over. Although they don't have it in 6:1, Draganfly shows "excellent" stock levels for their 60-over 7.5:1 pistons for later Ariels, which are of an unspecified aftermarket brand. Everything I've found about aftermarket Ariel pistons says all of them are very heavy. So, one issue would be how much material I could remove from the skirt without weakening it, to minimize work on the flywheel to rebalance it to the best-guess balance factor. Similarly, how much I could remove from the crown to reduce the CR without weakening it. Or, would the iron head be able to deal with the extra heat generated by the higher compression? Comments and suggestions encouraged. Chaterlea25? Others?

While pondering the piston I got started making a torque plate from a piece of 6"-dia. x 3/4" steel. I've made quite a bit of progress with it but there is still a lot of metal to be removed to make the necessary ~3.5"-dia hole. Yes, I know, a torque plate might be overdoing things, but there's no reason not to the best job possible even if the improvement might be minimal.



MagMan,

Yes, I am following when I can. I'm only up to this point and haven't yet read any further. My iPad doesn't like this forum's editor, so I don't post here much, but in response to your questions, I rode a 1916 Indian in the 2016 Cannonball, not a Harley Davidson. It is a sidevalve engine, not IOE. I did not use oil control rings. I probably will use oil control rings in 2018, as several Indian riders did it successfully in 2016, proving that the automatic oiler can be adjusted to a low enough flow rate to accommodate the minimal oil usage that is experienced with oil rings installed. Note that it is a total loss oil system, it does not recirculate, so it is undesirable for the oiler to feed more than the engine burns and leaks. As I did not have time to test the automatic oiler's lower range of adjustment, I chose not to install oil rings last year. My oil consumption was by the book at one quart every 75 miles.

For the first half of the Cannonball I had to de-carbon the cylinders every few days. Since the Indian PowerPlus engine doesn't have removable heads, the normal procedure for de-carboning involves removing the cylinders and chipping the carbon out of the combustion chambers. To save time, I de-carboned through the valve plugs instead, using various long pointy tools, and sucked the carbon out with a vacuum cleaner. Either way, it's a tedious process. Some people say that ease of de-carboning was the reason that Indian transitioned to removeable heads on later engine designs.

Mid-way through the event, I started adding Sea Foam to my gas, and I didn't need to decarbon again after that. I should also mention that, at the same time, I started adding Marvel Mystery Oil to the gas to (successfully) remedy my sticky valves. Since I started adding both chemicals at the same time, I don't know which one fixed which symptom, but after that I didn't have to decarbon again, and my valves quit sticking.

I will mention that one rider who did not de-carbon, accumulated enough carbon in his combustion chamber for his piston to hit it, cracking the cylinder near the base flange.

I will also recommend running piston clearances and piston ring end gaps on the loose side for the Cannonball. Good luck!

I also want to mention that you can have pistons made in any size you want, no need to go .020 more oversized if you don't have to.


Kevin


.

#705022 - 08/14/17 9:27 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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On the subject of seating beads, I have had good success mounting the wheel and running the bike up to about 70 mph. It's always worked for me. Wear a good crash helmet.




Kevin


.

#705073 - 08/15/17 2:59 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: KevinN]  
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Originally Posted by KevinN
...I rode a 1916 Indian in the 2016 Cannonball, not a Harley Davidson. It is a sidevalve engine, not IOE.
Oops, I knew all that. I conflated your bike with my teammate's IOE Harley. Sorry.

Originally Posted by KevinN
I did not use oil control rings. I probably will use oil control rings in 2018, as several Indian riders did it successfully in 2016, proving that the automatic oiler can be adjusted to a low enough flow rate to accommodate the minimal oil usage that is experienced with oil rings installed. Note that it is a total loss oil system, it does not recirculate, so it is undesirable for the oiler to feed more than the engine burns and leaks. As I did not have time to test the automatic oiler's lower range of adjustment, I chose not to install oil rings last year.
This is very helpful. Thanks! It will take some riding experience to get completely comfortable with the Ariel's oiling system, but my present understanding is the excess gets spewed onto the chain. "Correct" oiling is a balance between enough mist in the crankcase to keep the cylinder oiled so the piston doesn't score, but not too much as to cause problems.

Originally Posted by KevinN
I started adding Marvel Mystery Oil to the gas to (successfully) remedy my sticky valves.
What mixing ratio did you use?

Originally Posted by KevinN
I will also recommend running piston clearances and piston ring end gaps on the loose side for the Cannonball.
Will do. I'm still trying to determine how loose to make those clearances, but they will be at the loose side of normal.

Originally Posted by KevinN
I also want to mention that you can have pistons made in any size you want, no need to go .020 more oversized if you don't have to.
Well, since I have two +60 pistons in hand now I'd like not to revisit that issue. It's "only" a matter of which one of those to use and the clearances. Oh, and the balance factor. The balance factor is an obstacle I've been working on for a couple of weeks now. If I only knew the weight of an original piston I'd know what to use. I have hopes just such a piston will magically appear next week.

Kevin, thanks very much for your valuable information. Feel free to keep following along, fighting the unfriendly interface, and posting additional comments as this rebuild moves along.

#705097 - 08/15/17 12:17 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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When I sent the 1915 Norton piston to Total Seal to have rings made the guy there told me not to use an oil control ring. It had been their experience in the past that is was better not to use an oil control ring on total loss oiling motors. I did not read it anywhere. Did the Aerial come with an oil control ring?
The 1915 Norton used less than a quart of oil each day on the Cannonball. Over oiling caused more problems than you would think. Made the motor run hot and slow. I do not like oil leaks and worked very hard to stop any leak we had so we lost very little to leaks.
A total loss oiling system is just what it says. The system is made to lose oil. Once the oil drips onto the crankshaft and rod journal that oil does nothing but stay in crankcase sump and get dirty. Very dirty. The crankshaft then throws that dirty oil around the inside of the motor and cylinder walls. I want to get rid of the dirty oil so out the tail pipe is a good place. On the Norton it lost some used oil via the engine breather but not much if the drip feed was set correctly.
Our rider saw quite a few others draining their sumps at each gas stop. Seems to me they were over oiling but since I never worked on a V Twin total loss oiling bike I really can not say that for sure. At the end of each day we would get about a 1/2 cup of oil out of the sump if the system was set up correctly.
We used Marvel Mystery oil in our gas. We would fill both tanks with race gas and add a a cap full of Marvel Mystery to each tank. When the rider would stop for gas he would turn on the auxiliary tank petcock and let it run into the main tank filling it about half way. Then he would top up both tanks. Allowing us to have better gas than what you would have straight from the pump.
I will try to pull the cylinder on the Norton this week and look at carbon build up.

#705098 - 08/15/17 12:24 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Nebraska, USA
As far as the mixing ratio on the MMO, I wasn't very scientific about it, but I think it was only about 1 - 2 ounces each fill-up of about 2 gallons of gas. I know that some people are using two-cycle oil at about 200:1. The main thing is, side-valve engine need some kind of oil in the gas to lubricate the valve stems.

As far as balance factor, since the Indian only runs at a couple thousand RPMs on the highway, I chose not to sweat it too much. I measured the balance factor with the old pistons and determined it to be 58%, which was consistent with results that some others had reported on old Indians. With the new pistons the balance factor was somewhat high at about 69%, if I remember correctly. Essentially this means less imbalance up and down, but more fore and aft. It would have taken considerable drilling on my pristine, undrilled, original flywheels to reduce the balance factor back to 58%. I decided to assemble the engine and try it without drilling the flywheels, knowing that, based on the results I may have to open the engine back up and drill the flywheels. In the end, the engine ran very smoothly, and I've ridden it about 4000 miles that way. I know this is an emotional and widely misunderstood subject for many people, so I am not suggesting that anyone else follow my course of action in this regard, I'm just sharing my experience.

One more piont on oil rings - since there is no filtration, and since you obviously don't use/replace as much oil, you have to drain and refill the crankcase frequently, preferably at each fuel stop.



Kevin


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#705100 - 08/15/17 12:33 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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"tuning for Speed" , by PE Irving page 59 on this PDF, talks about balance factors.
http://tuningforspeed.com/files/Tuning_for_Speed.pdf

if unknown he recommends 66 % as a starting point.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/15/17 12:36 pm.

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#705107 - 08/15/17 1:43 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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As long as it will hold up, I would go for the lightest piston at the recommended or best guess balance factor, if the reciprocating weight is at its lowest then there is less adverse effect from getting the balance factor wrong.

#705115 - 08/15/17 2:45 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: KevinN]  
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Originally Posted by KevinN
As far as the mixing ratio on the MMO, I wasn't very scientific about it, but I think it was only about 1 - 2 ounces each fill-up of about 2 gallons of gas. I know that some people are using two-cycle oil at about 200:1. The main thing is, side-valve engine need some kind of oil in the gas to lubricate the valve stems.

As far as balance factor, since the Indian only runs at a couple thousand RPMs on the highway, I chose not to sweat it too much. I measured the balance factor with the old pistons and determined it to be 58%, which was consistent with results that some others had reported on old Indians. With the new pistons the balance factor was somewhat high at about 69%, if I remember correctly. Essentially this means less imbalance up and down, but more fore and aft. It would have taken considerable drilling on my pristine, undrilled, original flywheels to reduce the balance factor back to 58%. I decided to assemble the engine and try it without drilling the flywheels, knowing that, based on the results I may have to open the engine back up and drill the flywheels. In the end, the engine ran very smoothly, and I've ridden it about 4000 miles that way. I know this is an emotional and widely misunderstood subject for many people, so I am not suggesting that anyone else follow my course of action in this regard, I'm just sharing my experience.

One more piont on oil rings - since there is no filtration, and since you obviously don't use/replace as much oil, you have to drain and refill the crankcase frequently, preferably at each fuel stop.



Kevin


.


I do not understand the refilling part. On the Norton it drips on the crankshaft and then goes away. The crankshaft does not have an oil slinger like on some old motors and should not ride in the oil that is in the sump. As the oil drips on crankshaft it slings the new oil everywhere inside. I drain the sump and go.

#705118 - 08/15/17 3:09 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: RPM]  
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Originally Posted by RPM


I do not understand the refilling part. On the Norton it drips on the crankshaft and then goes away. The crankshaft does not have an oil slinger like on some old motors and should not ride in the oil that is in the sump. As the oil drips on crankshaft it slings the new oil everywhere inside. I drain the sump and go.



That's OK RPM, I'll explain; early Indians hold about 4 or 5 ounces of oil in the sump, which the flywheels sling to the cylinders and other areas. The oil level is replenished by an adjustable reciprocating pump called an automatic oiler, and supplemental oil is provided by a hand pump. When the sump is drained, the level must be returned to the middle of the site glass by use of the hand pump. I apologize if this information isn't applicable to the discussion, I don't have experience with this particular model of motorcycle. Just offering what I can, didn't mean to muddy the waters.



Kevin


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#705171 - 08/16/17 12:06 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: KevinN]  
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So once again I was confused. The Norton and Indian do it different. I bet the Ariel has a different system also.
We ran Valvoline VR1 50wt oil and no additives.

#705175 - 08/16/17 12:47 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: RPM]  
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Originally Posted by RPM
When I sent the 1915 Norton piston to Total Seal to have rings made the guy there told me not to use an oil control ring. It had been their experience in the past that is was better not to use an oil control ring on total loss oiling motors. I did not read it anywhere. Did the Aerial come with an oil control ring?
The 1928 pistons only had two rings but sometime a decade later they added an oil ring without simultaneously making any changes in the oiling system. Apparently Ariel's thinking on oil control rings changed in the 1930s.

I certainly give more weight to manufacturers' recommendations than to random suggestions, but only if they makes sense. As I wrote previously, I gave Omega the information that I would be using their piston in an all-iron 1928 motorcycle engine and the guy who responded recommended a gap of 0.0037". Unless I un-expectantly find their alloy behaves significantly different than do other Al alloys when I measure the thermal expansion, I will not be following their recommendation because it makes no sense for my engine.

It seems to me there are two distinct aspects to the issue of an oil ring: what goes on from the crankcase up to the top of the rings, and what goes on above the rings.

Starting at the bottom, the cylinder walls need oil on them to keep the piston from scuffing. However, this is completely independent of whether or not the valves and guides are bathed in oil. If an oil ring doesn't somehow scrape so much oil off the wall that it causes problems with the piston in a, say, Gold Star, it won't cause problems in a total loss motorcycle either. Unless the amount of oil flying around in the crankcase is so marginal that it's near the limit of being adequate for the piston.

Next is the combustion chamber. Ideally, it should be completely free of oil since even a small amount reduces the octane of the fuel.

Finally, if oil is needed to help lubricate the valves there are two ways of arranging for it. One is to leave the oil ring off, although there are several downsides to that. First, the amount of oil that gets past the compression rings is unpredictable. If too much gets by you'll be de-coking the top end frequently, as Kevin had to do early in his ride. If too little gets by the guides will wear. The other choice is to put an oil ring on to help keep the oil in the bottom end of the engine where it belongs and separately arrange for valve lubrication with Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel.

Originally Posted by RPM
The 1915 Norton used less than a quart of oil each day on the Cannonball. ... Once the oil drips onto the crankshaft and rod journal that oil does nothing but stay in crankcase sump and get dirty. Very dirty. ... Our rider saw quite a few others draining their sumps at each gas stop.
The Ariel owners guide calls for draining the sump every 1000 miles. There are two outlets (breathers?), one halfway up the crankcase and the other from the timing chest. However, I won't understand the oiling system until I open the crankcases because the descriptions of the system are anything but comprehensive. I'll be revisiting this issue later.

My Ariel is supposed to be fed 10-15 drops/minute. Since according to google there are ~19,000 drops in a quart that's equivalent to ~19000/15 = 21 hours of riding, or ~750 miles at 35 mph. Basically that's a third of your oil consumption.

Originally Posted by RPM
We used ... a cap full of Marvel Mystery to each tank.
Originally Posted by KevinN
As far as the mixing ratio on the MMO, I wasn't very scientific about it, but I think it was only about 1 - 2 ounces each fill-up of about 2 gallons of gas. I know that some people are using two-cycle oil at about 200:1.
Thanks guys. Ariel calls for an "egg cup" worth of oil to be added to each gallon of fuel to lubricate the inlet valve. Depending on the volume of Medieval (1928) English eggs, that corresponds to something in the range 100-200:1.

Originally Posted by KevinN
As far as balance factor ... I know this is an emotional and widely misunderstood subject for many people,
Indeed. A couple of reactions I got off line were as if I had asked them their bank balance rather than their balance factor.

Originally Posted by KevinN
since the Indian only runs at a couple thousand RPMs on the highway, I chose not to sweat it too much.
I haven't given up yet, but if the needed information isn't unearthed in the next two months I may have to take my best guess and hope for the best.

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
if unknown he recommends 66 % as a starting point.
Thank you, but I'm still hoping to start with the ending point. Testing to find the optimum balance factor for my Ariel would be best. However, to find optimum that way would require me to remove the engine, disassemble, rebalance and rebuild, reinstall, road test at various speeds, and repeat that process a half-dozen times. Call me lazy, but I don't want to do that. I'm willing to settle for the balance factor the factory used in 1928, but to determine that I need the weight of a 1928 piston.

Originally Posted by kommando
As long as it will hold up, I would go for the lightest piston ...
That's an excellent point. In the limit of a zero-weight piston (and rod) the engine could be balanced to be as vibration-free as an electric motor, so lighter is better all other things being equal (which they may not be...).

The balance factor remains the biggest unknown at the moment, but I'm still open to technical information on whether or not to use an oil ring. As of now I'm in the pro-ring camp. But, given its importance, this isn't the last readers of this thread will hear of oil regulation, oiling issues, oil rings, etc.

#705190 - 08/16/17 4:31 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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"The 1928 pistons only had two rings but sometime a decade later they added an oil ring without simultaneously making any changes in the oiling system. Apparently Ariel's thinking on oil control rings changed in the 1930s."

There is (or needs to be) a web (a baffle) across the mouth of each crankcase half. When the cases are assembled, there is just enough clearance for the rod to reciprocate. The baffling will prevent excess oil from the flywheels being thrown onto the piston skirt; necessary because of the lack of an oil ring. I suspect they also influence pressurisation and oil mist movement between the underneath of the piston, and the flywheels. I have been told by an old timer that some tuners would remove the baffling, but due to a lack of understanding I am not advocating this.

There are two plate type check valves pressed into the inner wall of the timing chest (RH crankcase). They will allow oil mist to pass from the crankcase cavity into the timing chest, but not the other way.

From the factory operator's handbook, the timing gear cavity must contain quarter of a pint of oil before start-up (filled through the plug near the top of the outer timing case; say at 1 o'çlock)'.

To assist in priming the oil pump, it is handy to tap the banjo in the feed pipe into lower part of the outer timing case (approx 7 o'çlock) and fit a 1/4" screw (sealed with a fibre washer). Easy to access.

In 1929 the Black Ariel lubrication system was upgraded to dry sump (the oil pump was upgraded from single stage, to the familiar two stage piston type (addition of the scavenge section).

I don't know when they added the oil control ring, but it would have become necessary as the oiling system evolved (higher circulation rate).

Richard

#705208 - 08/16/17 12:45 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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I think your on the right track with the oil ring issue, MM. Based on my Cannonball experience, crankcase oil is not a very effective valve lubricant, as evidenced by the fact that I was consuming a quart every 75 miles and my valves were still sticking terribly, until I started adding the MMO to my gas. They were sticking to the point that I was on the side of the road for an hour and a half one day with stuck valves. After the engine cooled down, I was able to unstick the valves on one cylinder and finish the day's ride that way. Not only was the MMO effective in lubricating the valve guides, but it prevented the motor oil from gumming up the valve guides. Like RPM, I was also using Valvoline VR1 50w motor oil in 2016.

To me, the issue of adding oil rings to an engine that did not originally have oil rings comes down to two things:

1- you must be able to reduce the goesinta so that it still equals the goesouta's. The goesinta being the oil that is supplied to the engine, whether by pump, drip, or other method, and the goesouta's being the sum total of leakage, plus mist exiting the crankcase breather, plus oil consumed in the combustion chamber (which will now be greatly reduced).

2- The new (reduced) goesinta flow rate must be adequate to lubricate everything that needs to be lubricated.



I sure would like to see some pictures!


Kevin #97


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#705220 - 08/16/17 4:40 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Originally Posted by Richard Kal
There is (or needs to be) a web (a baffle) across the mouth of each crankcase half. When the cases are assembled, there is just enough clearance for the rod to reciprocate. The baffling will prevent excess oil from the flywheels being thrown onto the piston skirt; necessary because of the lack of an oil ring.
Hmm, the plot thickens. Thanks very much for pointing this out. I hadn't yet done anything with the bottom end other than make a stand to hold the crankcases. Indeed, cast into each crankcase half are horizontal plates near the top leaving a slot ~3/4" wide for the rod but blocking all but slivers of the inner edges of the flywheels.

Originally Posted by Richard Kal
To assist in priming the oil pump, it is handy to tap the banjo in the feed pipe into lower part of the outer timing case (approx 7 o'çlock) and fit a 1/4" screw (sealed with a fibre washer). Easy to access.
Can you expand on this a little? The oil feed system for '28 is a little different than '27 (and, possibly, early '28(?)). My oil system operates on vacuum with the screw in the sight glass used to bleed air into the system, reducing the vacuum/suction, thereby reducing the oil flow. Anyway, because of this, it's not clear to me how a bleed screw at the bottom of the feed pipe would help prime the pump. If I opened such a screw it wouldn't result in oil flowing from the tank to displace air in the tube and fill it with oil because first the oil in the tank has to be sucked up into the sight glass on top of the tank before it then drops into the pipe.

Originally Posted by Richard Kal
I don't know when they added the oil control ring, but it would have become necessary as the oiling system evolved (higher circulation rate).
As far as I could tell from the information I can find is the oil ring was added some time after the oil pump was upgraded. But, the information is sketchy so I'm not sure of this.

Originally Posted by KevinN
Like RPM, I was also using Valvoline VR1 50w motor oil in 2016.
What are your thoughts on using AeroShell "ashless" oil? Did anyone use this oil, and why or why not?

Originally Posted by KevinN
1- you must be able to reduce the goesinta so that it still equals the goesouta's. ...
What I won't understand until I take the bottom end apart is how those two outlets from my engine (from the crankcase and the timing chest) function. That is, is the oil system designed so that once the levels in the crankcase and timing chest reach steady state does every extra drop of oil that reaches the crankcase cause a drop to leave one of those pipes and fall on the road? If so, to some extent old, used oil will be continuously flushed from the system by new oil.

Originally Posted by KevinN
I sure would like to see some pictures!
I'd be happy to post pictures. I just need to find the time to figure out a workable, long term solution to the problem of Hosting photos so I can insert them where they belong in each post and not lumped as attachments at the end.

#705254 - 08/16/17 11:14 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Hi All,
Quote
There is (or needs to be) a web (a baffle) across the mouth of each crankcase half. When the cases are assembled, there is just enough clearance for the rod to reciprocate. The baffling will prevent excess oil from the flywheels being thrown onto the piston skirt; necessary because of the lack of an oil ring.


Not completely accurate

Some engines have baffles and run oil rings, (Indian Chief)
Some V twins have baffles only on the rear cylinder, (BSA), originally no oil rings
MM's Ariel single has baffles, originally no oil ring
Rudge's both total loss oiling and dry sump do not have baffles or oil rings originally

Designers back then tried many and various things in attempting to better the breed !
A few went off and started with a clean sheet and fresh thinking, mostly they failed commercially as potential customers were reluctant to spend on untried ideas

To the best of my knowledge lip oil seals for instance, which would have greatly improved early engines and gearboxes came into being in the forties
The lack of effective sealing meant that oil volumes / circulating capacities had to be kept low

Ariel only went to fitting oil rings when they enlarged the feed pump plunger diamater to 1/4in. (my 39 350 had the smaller pump)

The two 29 black Ariels local to me are running the late 50's pumps, (increased from 1/4in.)
One is running a BSA piston with oil ring , I do not know about the other only that fitting the larger capacity pump has not caused any problems

John

#705274 - Yesterday at 02:57 AM Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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You asked about Aeroshell ashless MM. I'm sure it's good oil. I think some Cannonballers are using it. My only personal experience with it is in airplane engines with recirculating oil systems and oil rings. The price isn't totally ridiculous by today's standards, if I recall correctly. I don't always recall correctly though...




Kevin


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