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#704493 - 08/10/17 4:10 am Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline  
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the tanned gland Offline
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Some time back, about a year or three I found someone in Canada on the web who was producing among other things stainless steel battery stands to suit a slimline framed Dominator / single cylinder Norton. When my computer blew up I lost the bookmark for this web page & now I need to see if I can track this person down again. This is the small platform that goes inside the battery box that the battery sits on not the platform that the battery box & oil tank sit on OK ! Does anyone out there know who this supplier is & their contact details. Thanking you all in advance. : )


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#704602 - 08/11/17 7:39 am Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: the tanned gland]  
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Wilfred Online content
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I too would like to know of such a battery platform as my Atlas came without one. Was thinking of making one out of a 66 T100 battery box but would be interested in one already made as I am starting to get lazy about some things in my old age.....

Cheers, Wilf


"It's about the ride..."
#704620 - 08/11/17 1:10 pm Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: Wilfred]  
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gREgg-K Online content
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Seems to me that Mike at Walridge Motors has/had a fellow who was fabricating reproductions of sheet metal parts for Brit bikes.

May be worth contacting Mike at (519) 227-4923 to see what he might be able to supply.

Good luck,
.. Gregg


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#704691 - 08/12/17 4:38 am Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: the tanned gland]  
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Rohan Offline
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Stainless is very rapidly eaten by battery acid, at the least the varieties I have tried.

So, is this the best material to make these in ?
Powdercoated steel may be longer lived ?
Or triple coated in stoved enamel ?
Plastic. ?
Carbon fibre ?

#705329 - 08/17/17 7:39 pm Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: Wilfred]  
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57nortonmodel77 Online content
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Hi Wilf,

the guy is in BC for Pete's sake smile

Colin Kelly: http://www.customclassiccycleparts.com/

No worries on the stainless steel. I have always used stainless on all my battery connections with coppaslip, no issues whatsoever.FWIW, a fully charged lead acid battery is only 30% sulfuric acid, and frankly I dont know anyone anymore that used them. Gel batteries, AGM, etc. are the norm & dont leak acid.

All the best,

Skip


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1950 Norton Model 7:
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
#705350 - 08/17/17 10:58 pm Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: the tanned gland]  
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Rohan Offline
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So if they are not acid resistant, and don't need to be these days, and not visible, where is the advantage in making them in stainless ?? Spose the guy making them can charge 3 times the price.....

btw, the leadacid battery in my old single thumper is 18 years old and still going strong.
Show me the gel battery, AGM etc that can outlive that ?
They seem to need replacing in short order, use them or not ??
And they don't even have a leccy starter to stress them...

#705365 - 08/18/17 3:43 am Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: Rohan]  
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Tanned Gland:
As to materials,certain pure metals, such as nickel, aluminum, copper, and lead are a very good choice with battery acid. If you choose to use stainless steel, 316 is a very good choice, but you stainless steel supplier can make recommendations based on what he stocks, and battery acids affect on it.. I wouldnt use stainless steel to store 100% sulfuric acid, but in the 5%-30% diluted form in an old fashioned lead acid battery, I wouldn't worry. Another option is to put the battery in a rubber battery box made for this purpose.

You may want to contact your nearest sheet metal shop, give them a drawing with dimensions. It may be less costly than shipping from BC Canada to Australia



Rohan:

Stainless is not 3 times the price.
We all know you dont like stainless, most of us prefer the upgrade, much like the stainless fenders on most Commandos.
Its the owners choice to use what he likes.

I dont know of anyone who gets 18 years out of any battery, well past its expected lifespan in any case.
Battery manufacturers agree that on average, a motorcycle battery should last 48 months, yet most are lucky to get half of that, and in most cases the battery's premature death can be chalked up to a lack of maintenance. I have never replaced my AGM batterys (10 years old).
Most folks with short life spans on AGM batteries:

1) often dont read the directions on charging them & think they are bad when they really arent because they didnt follow the charging instructions.
2) have other issues that would cause any battery to fail & blame the battery. For example a bad regulator, wiring short, defective ignition switch, bad alternator , bad
dynamo, etc.
3) are using the wrong battery. Emergency light batteries are NOT made for motorcycles

Further discussion on batteries should be on a new post


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1950 Norton Model 7:
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
#705368 - 08/18/17 7:11 am Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: 57nortonmodel77]  
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Rohan Offline
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So where is the advantage in a stainless battery tray in your answer ?

Originally Posted by 57nortonmodel77

Stainless is not 3 times the price.
We all know you dont like stainless, most of us prefer the upgrade, much like the stainless fenders on most Commandos.
Its the owners choice to use what he likes.
I


Parts specially made in stainless might be more likely to be 3 times the price !?
Unless they are mass produced like Commando guards. (I rather like my 850s stainless guards)
I can buy studs and barrel nuts for dommie generators for 1/3 the price you charge for stainless versions. !!

I buy plenty of stainless, so don't talk nonsense.
But for its cosmetics, not so much for structural use.
Useful bits like stainless nylocs in cycle thread used to be really hard to find though (haven't checked lately),
and even simple stainless items are expensive - metric stainless bolts are only a few tens of cents each, cycle thread stainless bolts are pounds each !!!

P.S. One of the difficulties I have always found with stainless is that you don't seem to be able to go anywhere and just order a full set of stainless fasteners for say a Model 7 for example. I was connected with an enterprise that offered a full set of plated steel fasteners precisely for a Model 7, and this gave you every nut, bolt, washer, screw and special in exactly the same dimension and the same shapes as the originals. It was rather a hefty parcel of bolts !!
Where is that service in stainless ??

We diverge slightly from battery trays though...
------------------
Many projects.
Some of them might even go one day...



#705386 - 08/18/17 11:42 am Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: Rohan]  
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Stainless steel wont rust, and is some cases is tougher depending on the alloys added. Despite mis-information, you can have stainless steel in many types & grades, even hardened. Molnar Manx is one of several suppliers I use. His is all high grade & they use the same parts on their racebikes, including axles. Never had one break as some suggest.

Price- not 3x the price for stainless comparing apples to apples . The barrel nuts you are referring to I buy at a fraction of what I sell them for, I pay 20% more for stainless versus plain steel cadmium plated, but need to add shipping from the UK to the USA, Paypal fees, eBay fees, postage fees, packaging, and a tiny profit considering the amount of time it takes me to produce the listing , order & maintain inventory, & shipping time. In the end, to truthfully compare stainless steel versus plain steel plated, the price difference on the nuts you mentioned is a 20% upgrade from stainless steel. Oh, by the way, I sell quite a few both in full sets & separatly, so there are those who see the value over the final cost.
I have my own metal lathe, Bridgeport milling machine, etc & buy all kinds of metal, including stainless steel. To make a blanket statement about stainless being 3x the cost is a mis-representation. It may be a bigger difference in the outback, but not where I live. Lets just agree that you are, uh....thrifty. That is fine, but some people are willing to pay more for an item that better suits their needs. Also, folks who are not retired, may not have a lot of extra time & would rather pay extra for something that saves them time, where you may have all day to sit & polish a rusty bolt. We all have a different situation, dont condemn someone else for their choices.

As an example, from Norvil's website you can see the prices in GBP for a SS rear axle, a 17% price upgrade for the better stainless steel axle, not 3x the price. Oh, and not a single Norvil stainless steel axle has been reported broken, so save the rant.

060289 SPINDLE - WHEEL - REAR - PRE MK3 - 18TPI 31.10
060289SS SPINDLE - WHEEL - REAR - PRE MK3 - 18TPI - POLISHED - STAINLESS STEEL 36.40

If one is looking for a highly corrosion resistant stainless, as mentioned, I would recommend 316, here are some specs on a sheet of .060" x 12" x 12":

Material 316 Stainless Steel
Cross Section Shape Rectangle
Construction Solid
Appearance Plain
Thickness 0.06"
Thickness Tolerance -0.006" to 0.006"
Tolerance Rating Standard
Width 12"
Width Tolerance -1/8" to 1/8"
Length 12"
Length Tolerance -1/8" to 1/8"
Yield Strength 30,000 psi
Fabrication Cold Worked, Heat Treated
Hardness Rockwell B95 (Medium)
Temper Rating Softened
Heat Treatable No
Minimum Temperature Not Rated
Maximum Temperature 1500° F
Specifications Met ASTM A240, MIL-S-5059
Flatness Tolerance Not Rated
Density 0.29 lbs./cu. in.
Surface Resistivity 449 ohm-cir. mil/ft.
Melting Point Temperature 2500° F
Modulus of Elasticity 28 ksi × 103
Thermal Conductivity 110 Btu/hr. × in./sq. ft./°F @ 212° F
Elongation 39%
Material Composition
Iron 58.23-73.61%
Carbon 0-0.08%
Chromium 16-18.5%
Copper 0-1%
Manganese 0-2%
Molybdenum 0-3%
Nickel 10-15%
Nitrogen 0-0.1%
Phosphorus 0-0.045%
Silicon 0-1%
Sulfur 0.35%
Titanium .7% Max.
RoHS Compliant
The addition of molybdenum gives 316 stainless steel excellent corrosion resistance. Use it in a variety of marine and chemical-processing applications. This material maintains its corrosion resistance in temperatures up to 1500° F.


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1950 Norton Model 7:
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
#705431 - 08/18/17 10:02 pm Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: 57nortonmodel77]  
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Rohan Offline
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Originally Posted by 57nortonmodel77
Stainless steel wont rust, .


That statement alone is rather questionable
Where did you get that from ??
Discolouring or tarnishing is the stainless equivalent of rusting.
That deep brown up near the exhaust port is a sure sign...

Some of my bikes have stainless mufflers - they certainly are not claimed to last forever.
Stainless Commando tweety mufflers, stainless dommie mufflers, stainless thumper exhaust pipe,
stainless BM mufflers, stainless Guzzi full system.
Since fuel has gone unleaded, stainless lasts longer, those lead combustion products sure ate into stuff.

I used to work for a bolt supplier, mucho stainless. And my uncle manufactured food grade equipment.
Really acid resistant stainless is something special for highly corrosive conditions, it didn't even have a number. (?).

BTW, your comment that battery acid is "only" 30% H2SO4 is a bit wide of the mark.
Highly concentrated sulph acid can routinely be stored in steel tanks, battery acid will eat straight through those steel tanks ! The extra hydrogens (from the water) make it much more active.
And sulphuric acid LOVES to eat chromium - ever splashed a chrome exhaust with battery acid, strips the chrome straight off. Cr is an ingredient in stainless, in varying proportions

Yes, 316 is marine grade, keeps the salt corrosion at bay.
Yes it won't corrode or tarnish much if it never sees rain ...
I've got a fair bit of it.
If only it was commonly available in cycle thread, at metric type prices....

#705500 - 08/19/17 9:47 pm Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: the tanned gland]  
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Rohan Offline
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And a 316 socket head cap screw that has been exposed to battery acid.

I would say that looks like corrosion, whatever you call it......

[Linked Image]

#705518 - 08/20/17 2:30 am Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: the tanned gland]  
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57nortonmodel77 Online content
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"Car or automotive battery acid is 30-50% sulfuric acid (H2SO4) in water. Usually the acid has a mole fraction of 29%-32% sulfuric acid, density of 1.25–1.28 kg/L and concentration of 4.2–5 mol/L. Battery acid has a pH of approximately 0.8."

Johnson Controlls, the worlds largest automotive battery manufacturer

Pic shows a slight discoloration of stainless corrosion. If it were steel, there woild be a greatly reduced diameter, of it might have vanished entirely. Good thing it was stainless. Seemingly no reduction in diameter?. Of course, those of us who use a lot of stainless would have used some coppaslip on those threads first smile


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1950 Norton Model 7:
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
#705526 - 08/20/17 5:44 am Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: the tanned gland]  
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Rohan Offline
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Rohan  Offline
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It wasn't there very long.
I have no doubt if left long enough, it would have been eaten right through.

It was a test to see how bulletproof/acidproof 316 stainless really was.
Not very would appear to be the correct answer...

And if you have ever dabbled in battery acid, it will quite happily dissolve flesh and clothes,
despite the google quotes... !!

#705548 - 08/20/17 3:26 pm Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: Rohan]  
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57nortonmodel77 Online content
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Obviously the pint was stainless will last much much longer than regular steel, and that is a fact & science backs me up.
I have all stainless steel fasteners on every battery terminal I own & have for years, none have ate through.
Your test is inconclusive, other than to prove my original point, stainless steel lasts longer than standard steel, even in contact with battery acid.
Been working with battery acid since the 1960's, very much awaye of the safety issues. I also have checked difficult to see water levels with my finger & washed up with soap & water several minutes later, not an issue as it is 30% mix or less.
Dont know where you get the idea I have used google quotes anywhere on this thread? My quote on the battery acid percentage is from the largest automotive battery mfgr. in the world.

Bottom line, science & chemistry prove my original point. Stainless steel in the correct alloy will outlast a standard grade of steel period.
Your thrifty nature wont let you spend the extra money yourself & thats fine, but dont tell untruths & halve truths about your version of science to try to make it sound like you are knowledgeable about metallurgy, or chemistry.

I am done trying to teach you Rohan, you refuse to listen & seem to enjoy repeating the same nonsense. You dont like stainless steel, great, dont use it, but stop your babbling on about it, it is used around the world for millions of everyday uses & every reputable Norton supplier carry's it , because most people see the value in it.

so in closing Rohan, I leave you with a quote:


“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”


― Mark Twain


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1950 Norton Model 7:
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
#705695 - 08/21/17 11:05 pm Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: the tanned gland]  
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Rohan Offline
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My simple test proved that stainless isn't impervious to battery acid, even if it "didn't rust".
Forums are for discussing stuff, are we not allowed to point out the elephant in the room.
Spending big where it is no help would seem to be rather pointless ??
I have a degree which includes some chemistry Skip, even if I never worked in that area, so I don't know where that leaves you. Coating things with copperslip to prevent them corroding could just as well have been done to the standard painted part.

Your google quotes on acid and stainless seem to disregard too that sulphuric acid is oxidising at higher strengths, and reducing at battery acid levels. And is almost alone that as it evaporates, it gets stronger. Beware that , at your peril...

P.S. I just had these made up, for obvious reasons. Down in the slush and mud, $$ well spent.
Bonus points for anyone who can identify what they are actually for.
Bit off topic, but topical.

[Linked Image]

#705711 - 08/22/17 12:17 am Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: Rohan]  
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kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content

fefsa

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Originally Posted by Rohan

P.S. I just had these made up, for obvious reasons. Down in the slush and mud, $$ well spent.
Bonus points for anyone who can identify what they are actually for.



norton centerstand fixing bolts, with a fixed bush, missing the washer?


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#705770 - 08/22/17 1:12 pm Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: Rohan]  
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gREgg-K Online content
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gREgg-K  Online Content

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Originally Posted by Rohan
<SNIP>

P.S. I just had these made up, for obvious reasons. Down in the slush and mud, $$ well spent.
Bonus points for anyone who can identify what they are actually for.
Bit off topic, but topical.

[Linked Image]


Ah, the flats on the sides of the stud are a dead giveaway ... not to mention the unique stepped nuts that Royal Enfield used so frequently.

These are called "backstay studs" and are most likely Royal Enfield part number 20045. The nuts are most likely part number 20971. There is one stud on each side of the rear frame just above/behind the axle, with their purpose being to secure the rear mudguard assembly to its position on the rear frame members.


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
magneto@spyder-it.com
#705811 - 08/22/17 10:07 pm Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: the tanned gland]  
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Rohan Offline
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Rohan  Offline
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We diverge. Between you, you are totally right.
Lower front stay retainer for a (prewar) Enfield, in this case, although later may be the same.
I see that H's can now supply them, but that would be in cad finish (?)
(Not one trace of that is left on this bike's bits, but time has not been kind to it)

btw, the stainless for highly corrosive environments is listed as grade 1.something - there are rather a lot to choose from, (they must have run out of numbers, to go into fractions)

#705818 - 08/22/17 11:44 pm Re: Stainless steel battery platform for Slimline [Re: Rohan]  
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gREgg-K Online content
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gREgg-K  Online Content

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The machine using those "backstay studs" I referred to above is my 1937 Royal Enfield model JF. My JF's front mudguard has a similar stud (for its lower rear mounting), but rather than having two flats , it has a hexagon. In my prewar parts book, to the extent one can discern any details from the illustration, seems to confirm the hexagon.

BTW, you're right to suggest caution regarding "stainless steel". As you say, 'stainless steel' is a name given to a range of alloys, each with performance characteristics that vary with the percentage proportions of the alloy ... and yes, some grades have very low strength.

.. Gregg

Last edited by gREgg-K; 08/22/17 11:47 pm.

Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
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