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#704210 - 08/07/17 11:23 am Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Mark Parker]  
Joined: May 2013
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Allan Gill Offline
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Joined: May 2013
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Originally Posted by Mark Parker
MAP make some nice steel 'H' section rods hardly any heavier than stock alloys which fatigue. At the price I wouldn't buy new bolts and nuts I'd buy new rods.


Thats my sentiments. Although I have been sticking with Alu' rods (from Thunder engineering) I guess if they are fine in racing vehicles my A65 will be fine with them too, and have been. I took one rod out of commision when I ran the motor dry of oil, it had locked the crank with the material from the shells, and made a rough apearance to the rod face. When i cleaned up the ARP bolts I could see that they had received enough heat and stress to turn them blue and purple. I replaced the rod and happy days, but I still think that had I been using the stock rods that they would have certainly failed and took out my barrel and crank cases with it.


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#704216 - 08/07/17 1:14 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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Ron C Online content
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Ohio
Ok parts list is coming along, I have a couple of questions as I get deeper into this and start trying to figure out what is causing what.

First question.

crank end play, was measure at 0.01 which seems way more then it should be. My Haynes manual does to give any specification for the Crank end-play/runout, I would expect that to be in the 0.001-0.002 range? Since it is 0.01 the only thing that I can see that would cause that is the roller bearing? It looks to be in good shape, and shows no sign of wear but the crank end play has be worried. Should I replace this as well?


Second question.

Seems to be two types of timing side bearings.

The original BSA version which is VP23 Copper Lead Lined Strip, and are super cheap, Appears to be original`

Then there are ones that are solid brass made by Kibblewhite

and finally ones that are steal with a brass insert. Steal/Brass

The problem I see with the second two choices is that they look a bit different from the bushing that is currently installed. There is a separate thrust washer on my setup, which seems to have been machined into these two types of bushings. Am I missing something here?

Any advice on which way to go on this?


With that said anyone know what the service limits are for the Crank on the timing side? My book does not talk about them I assume that is because I line bore the bushing to fit anyway. I know that is is Concentric but that is about it.


As far as the head goes I have that worked out. I could get one from ebay, there are several, my current head I just replaced the valves, springs and guides so I would hate to waste that and start over.


One last question, where do you guys source your parts in the us? Seems to me that British Bike Bits have the best prices since I do not have to pay the VAT tax being in the US.

#704224 - 08/07/17 3:31 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
I have no idea which type of TS bearing material is best, I believe its more important to get the drive and timing sides Concentric and also use an oil filter together with regular oil changes.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#704228 - 08/07/17 4:11 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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DMadigan Offline
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DMadigan  Offline
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ca, us
The bushing is bronze, not brass. The steel backed one is preferred because it is more rigid, just like the rod shell bearings.
The service limit on the crank is what is available in under size shells. Since shops did not just clean up the journal and bore the bush to fit originally there were only two main sizes available. A10s have a smaller main so you could easily go less than the -0.020"
Is this originally a ball or roller drive setup? The roller has a cup with shims with a thrust washer inside the timing bush (separate piece) to set the end play. Ball does not need any of this. There are different case widths between the two.
Aluminum rods work fine and last for years if not used for racing. Make sure the drive side has the small bleed hole.
You have to see which is cheaper, another head and valve work or welding/machining your head. I am not sure there is the need for the small through hole and split pin in the rocker shaft mount. The oil is going to be sprayed around from the ends of the rockers and flung off the springs anyway. Plus the rockers are drilled to the pushrod pin to feed oil there (maybe not on early rockers?)

#704232 - 08/07/17 4:20 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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bodine031 Online content
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bodine031  Online Content
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melbourne florida
6+ years on my 64 Hornet engine. Kibblewhite bronze bush. Valvoline 60wt "R",MAP oil filter, Uses a Trident filter,Small oil cooler. Single carb head with 32mm kuni, Boyer with 3 ohm dual tower dual fire HD coil, Solid State Reg/Rect. Always ride it 7-10 miles get oil to temp and I don't beat the [censored] outta it cause I don't want to fix it. Bike is reliable and used 3-4x's a week
PS I have a spare 68-72 T-Bolt head bare and in nice condition. you are welcome to if you want it N/C

#704250 - 08/07/17 8:39 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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bon Offline
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bon  Offline
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With all the trouble these bushes cause, why not spring for an end-feed/roller bearing conversion and forget all about it ?

#704430 - 08/09/17 2:39 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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Andy Higham Offline
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Andy Higham  Offline
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Bolton Lancs UK
I agree the end feed/roller conversion is the ideal course of action.
I have to disagree about the bushes, the 2 parts of the 2 piece bush are not located not located relative to each other. The inner can creep inside the outer blocking the oil holes, starving the bush and the big ends of oil with disasterous consequences. Don't ask me how I know, even after 30 years it's still raw.


1955 BSA B31 400cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350cc
1967 Greeves 360cc Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
Modified Nu-Trak GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
#704431 - 08/09/17 3:03 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Andy Higham]  
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Ron C Online content
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Ohio
Perhaps I have not poked around enough on the end feed, bearing conversion. Are there any links you can point me too. I am not too interested in sending to SRM or another shop. I would rather do the work myself, that is why I was going the bush route.

#704437 - 08/09/17 4:36 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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Ray Elliott Offline
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Texas, USA
Ron - I've not done an SRM conversion (NKIB 5907 C3 bearing) but have done one using a NKIS30 C3 roller bearing. I wasted 3 crankshafts getting it correct, but it works very well. Hopefully you're a far better machinist than I. Rather than weld the inner timing case I machined a block that screws in place. The block holds the oil seal around the crank quill & I feed the oil externally.

If you'll PM me I'll gladly send you pix & my procedures.


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
#704440 - 08/09/17 5:15 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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DMadigan Offline
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ca, us
Why waste time and money on an end-feed/roller bearing conversion and go for a full roller crank and rods with 90 degree offset, steel rods and three main bearings? I am probably the only one stupid enough to do this but it solves a lot of deficiencies.
In reality, the bush will last a long time if done right with adequate filtering of the oil and is slightly cheaper.

#704445 - 08/09/17 5:28 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: DMadigan]  
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Ron C Online content
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Ohio
The biggest reason I decided on the bush route because if done correctly, which I am confident I can do, will last and the motor will be reliable. With that said, it might be worth picking up a second motor to play around with.

#704459 - 08/09/17 7:18 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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gunner Online content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
Regarding the end feed conversion, there's an interesting article On this Site which describes one of the variations on how it can be done.

My own personal opinion is that the original setup is adequate if you ensure most of the following are present:-
- an oil filter is fitted (commonly in the return line)
- an alloy sump plate with magnetic drain plug is used
- the oil is suitable (e.g. 20W50 classic type with API rating no higher than SG or synthetic motorcycle equivalent such as Mobil 1 V Twin)
- the oil is changed at regular intervals (probably every 1k miles for mineral)
- the OPRV is the later piston type rather than the earlier ball and spring variety, this helps maintain better oil pressure
- the crank sludge trap has been recently cleaned, these have a habit if filling rapidly unless an oil filter is fitted
- the crank is correctly shimmed to take up end play if a drive side roller is being used, a shim cup supposed to be fitted between the DS roller and crank to ensure exact end float
- the TS bearing is Concentric with the drive side and the TS journal has the correct clearance with the bearing
- the oil pump is operating efficiently with no leaks, preferably using a later DD type or iron bodied, see BSA A50/A65 installation tips At this Link

Converting to an end fed crank is certainy a good idea, however I believe the original setup will work OK if detailed attention to the above is made and this has been the approach I have taken over the last few years. All has been OK so far after admittedly only a few thousand miles.


Last edited by gunner; 08/09/17 7:29 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#704480 - 08/10/17 12:19 am Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Andy Higham]  
Joined: Aug 2001
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Rich B Online happy
Rich B  Online Happy



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Posts: 4,893
Stone Creek OH USA
Originally Posted by Andy Higham
I agree the end feed/roller conversion is the ideal course of action.
I have to disagree about the bushes, the 2 parts of the 2 piece bush are not located not located relative to each other. The inner can creep inside the outer blocking the oil holes, starving the bush and the big ends of oil with disasterous consequences. Don't ask me how I know, even after 30 years it's still raw.


BSA made a change to install a dowel to the 2 piece bearing to retain the inner bush to the outer steel housing. The early unit twins did not have the dowel. Service bearings for the early unit twins (62 - 65) have an updated P/N that have the dowel.

Not all aftermarket bearings have the dowel installed.

I would not run a 2 piece bearing without a dowel. Not if they fail, but when


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#704513 - 08/10/17 12:15 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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Ohio
Another question to ponder. I am currently running the late model DD pump. It is worth an upgrade to an SRM. From what I understand they use the same internal parts, just have tighter tolerances on the pump body and is less likely to warp. The DD pumps seems to in workable shape. I have had it apart and there was some contact between the internal gears and the cover plate and it tended to bind up when the pump screws were tight. I moved a bit of material from the internal gears to resolve that issue and now there is no binding, so I assume it would pump as normal. It was pumping over 50PSI when the engine was cold.

It the SRM really worth the upgrade?

#704531 - 08/10/17 3:45 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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bon Offline
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bon  Offline
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Originally Posted by Ron C
Perhaps I have not poked around enough on the end feed, bearing conversion. Are there any links you can point me too. I am not too interested in sending to SRM or another shop. I would rather do the work myself, that is why I was going the bush route.




http://bsa-a10.hailwood.com/mybsaa10rollerconversion.html

#704539 - 08/10/17 4:40 pm Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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gunner Online content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
The SRM pump is certainly worthwhile if you can afford one although I'm led to believe the flow isn't that much greater than original.

Some alternatives to consider:-
- try and find the iron bodied pump as used by BSA from 71 onwards. This pump is rare but was the best of all the A65 pumps.
- It is possible to make the alloy pumps work OK and there's a really good write up on the E&V website on how to install and check your pump, see This Link which explains how to simulate running and visualise whats going on with the pump in situ.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#705317 - Yesterday at 04:54 PM Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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Ron C Online content
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Ohio
Few more questions. My original plan was to have a -0.01 under bush line bored to my crank, According to my machinist that is not enough, due to misalignment. Since this is a 1965 A50 those bush's are different then the 66 and up. So I am on a search for a -0.03 bush, as quick as possible. Not much luck finding anymore smaller then 0.02 under. These are all Alpha bushings and are limited to 0.02 under.

I see the kibblewhite bushings will go down to 0.04 under, but when I look a those they list the same bush part number for both pre 1966 bush and post 1966 bush. Has to be a typo right? They do not have a real contact number so I can not speak to a real person there, so I can not ask them. but how is it the Kibblewhite bushings span Pre 1966 and post 1966 models?

Any other suggestions?

#705319 - Yesterday at 05:08 PM Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
A badly worn crank TS journal can be ground down and fitted with a harder sleeve to bring it back to std. Before SRM took over from Devimead with the roller conversion they used to offer this service. Is the TS bush miss-aligned or is the crank journal still oval?
Check your cases are a matched pair, on the lower mount castings there are 3 digit numbers on each side , these should match, if different you have a non matching set of cases and this might explain the miss alignment.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#705320 - Yesterday at 05:17 PM Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Ron C Online content
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Ohio
The Crank is with in spec it is 0.0002 out from inside to out. The problem is the 0.01 under TSB that does not have enough meat on it to make alignment. I talked to Kibblewhite on the phone and they assure me that their bush will work for a 1962 thru 1970 A50. Everything I see says they are different bushings but these are also the Alpha bushings. So I am hoping kibblewhite knows what they are talking about. Either way I will know tomorrow

#705382 - 1 hour ago Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C]  
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NickL Online content
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Aus
Try JH Motorcycles in Watford UK. If they are still going, i saw them selling off some of their stuff a while ago.

They used to make VERY good bushes for the A65 using the correct inner material and steel outer and did sizes down to about 0.060


OR
SRM are doing solid bronze ones
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BSA-A50-A65-timing-side-main-bush-solid-phosphor-bronze-30-under-size-early-typ-/282327767943?epid=1048476199&hash=item41bc0bdb87:g:xXEAAOSwd0BV3GQ6

Last edited by NickL; 1 hour ago.


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