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A65 timing side bushing service info needed #703712
08/02/17 7:46 pm
08/02/17 7:46 pm
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 23
Ohio
Ron C Offline OP
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Ron C  Offline OP
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Ohio
Looking for someone in the Ohio area that is able to line bore the timing side bushing on my A65. I do my own work but I do not have the equipment for this. I could always just install it and pray that is is aligned but I want to do this the right way.

I did a quick google search and did not see to see much in the way of shops that can do this work in ohio. Any recommendations?

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Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #703721
08/02/17 9:18 pm
08/02/17 9:18 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 798
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
I would try E & V Engineering who have a huge reputation and experience with BSA's.

They are not in Ohio but Howard City Michigan, so not too far away, see This Link


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #703739
08/02/17 11:38 pm
08/02/17 11:38 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,403
melbourne florida
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bodine031 Offline
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melbourne florida
The Ohio Valley BSA OC rally is this week end in Toronto Ohio I would think there would be the BSA folks in the know

Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #703822
08/03/17 4:39 pm
08/03/17 4:39 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,403
melbourne florida
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bodine031 Offline
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melbourne florida
got to thinking about this, if you bore the bush straight and take out material how do you make up the diff on the crank?? On non Twin Cam HD the pinion side you make up the diff with over size rollers. I guess you would bore the case half and find an Oversize OD bush. I think Kibblewhite had them for the later engine. keep me posted on what you find out

Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #703824
08/03/17 5:27 pm
08/03/17 5:27 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,847
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
You grind the crank till it's round then get the next bush undersize and team to size.


beerchug
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Allan Gill] #703838
08/03/17 6:45 pm
08/03/17 6:45 pm
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 23
Ohio
Ron C Offline OP
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Ron C  Offline OP
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Ohio
After a bit of research I think I am going to attempt this myself. I have access to a machine shop. At the very least I can mount the motor cases in the mill and with a dial indicator and a lot of patients I should be able to determine how well match the current bearing and bushing match up.

if the crank does not need ground, which I am hoping is the case, are the all of the bushing undersized and you just ream them to clearance? I am assuming that is how it is done.

Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #703842
08/03/17 7:03 pm
08/03/17 7:03 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,727
ca, us
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DMadigan Offline
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ca, us
I would use the existing bush as a trial piece to get the speeds and feeds right, also to dial in any spring back of the cutter. Are you using an adjustable reamer or a boring bar? Without the right cutter a boring bar will leave raised hairs on the surface.

Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #703844
08/03/17 7:10 pm
08/03/17 7:10 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,918
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Watch this , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg5AcTqq_9g
its an A10 but the set up is the same.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: gavin eisler] #703845
08/03/17 7:19 pm
08/03/17 7:19 pm
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 23
Ohio
Ron C Offline OP
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Ron C  Offline OP
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Ohio
Thanks for the link! That is the video that made me realize I have everything I need to do this sitting in my shop.

Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #703921
08/04/17 2:46 pm
08/04/17 2:46 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 93
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline
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Texas, USA
Ron C - Some of my experience over the last few years:
If you heat your oven to 300f the bush will come out easily. If you heat to 325f the bush will almost fall out. Chill the new bush before dropping into the hole. Use
some good heat resistant gloves so you can fit it properly (that is, not get it crooked & have to knock it out).

The machinist in the video turns an undersize plug & checks the bushing against the plug. I found this so invaluable that I made up plugs in several sizes. Once it is close start paying very close attention.

I buy Kibblewhite -0.030" bushings. If you buy a -0.010" bush you may have have enough 'meat' to correct concentricity issues. Many recommend against the solid brass bushings, but most of us aren't riding all that much.

After you create your setup for timing side case, make certain that you can fit & remove the upper case without disturbing your setup. This can be a challenge. Check your concentricity measurements between the drive side race & timing bush several times. If you're lucky they are Concentric.

For fixing to the mill bed, I put the case on parallels, use a bolt through the crankcase itself & a clamp against the tranny drain plug.

I find that I get a really good cut at about 360~380 rpm.

I measure my crank timing face for roundness. Unless the crank is badly worn, I'll cut the bush to about 0.004" smaller than the crank. Then I have the crank ground to give me 0.0015" clearance. If you're certain that the crank is round just machine the bush to the appropriate size.

It is tedious. But once complete it is satisfying.


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #703927
08/04/17 4:06 pm
08/04/17 4:06 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,308
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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Santa Barbara, California
Good training Ray! Thanks for that , the shop that has done mine used a.Vertical mill. It looks easy, but like anything else the setup and preparing are the key.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ray Elliott] #703932
08/04/17 4:54 pm
08/04/17 4:54 pm
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 23
Ohio
Ron C Offline OP
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Ohio
Thanks for advice Ray. That is exactly what I was looking for.

I do have an oven that i use for powder coating that will be perfect for this. I have a real machinist that will help on this, Biggest problem I have at the moment is trying to figure out the year of the motor. The title says it is a 1965 rocket, however when I tore into it over the winter it appears to be a mixed motor. Serial on the motor is "BSA A 50 B960" which does not seem to match any of the documents I have read concerning its year. I know this is not a 1965 bottom end, it has a "DD" oil pump and the oil line has three outlets which is a later model then a 1965. When I get into the bottom end I will look for some case markings to determine if I can get a better idea of its actual year.




Last edited by Ron C; 08/04/17 5:45 pm.
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #703938
08/04/17 5:46 pm
08/04/17 5:46 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 798
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
According to the BSA Owners Club UK website, engine number A50 B960 appears to be a 1965 A50CC CYCLONE COMPETITION, see This Link, so it looks like it is a 1965 bottom end as well as being 500cc as opposed to 650cc.

Might be worth checking the bore and stroke to see if the larger 650 barrels and head have been fitted at some point.

The DD oil pump was fitted to later A65 models as it has larger gears and a stronger body, so a worthwhile upgrade but not necessarily an indicator of the cases build year.

Last edited by gunner; 08/04/17 5:51 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: gunner] #703942
08/04/17 6:10 pm
08/04/17 6:10 pm
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 23
Ohio
Ron C Offline OP
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Ron C  Offline OP
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Ohio
Good catch, I did not see that link, in my prior searches. Thank you

It does have larger 650 barrels and a A65 dual carb head, I actually had it bored .010 over this past winter and had a valve job done as well. I am kicking myself because I should of done the Bushing then, I knew better, because everything on the top end was wore out. I am going to replace the rod bearings as well, since I am already going to have it apart.

Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #704010
08/05/17 2:08 am
08/05/17 2:08 am
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 93
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline
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Texas, USA
I suggest replacing the tranny bearings, at least the needle bearing, while you have the case warm.


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ray Elliott] #704056
08/05/17 5:16 pm
08/05/17 5:16 pm
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 23
Ohio
Ron C Offline OP
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Ron C  Offline OP
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Ohio
Well it is official. Timing side clearance is 0.003 and the crack end play is 0.01. Guess I will tear her down today.

While I have her completely down what else should I change, besides the sludge trap, rod bearings and drive bearings?

Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #704060
08/05/17 5:40 pm
08/05/17 5:40 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,918
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Use new good quality big end bolts. Leave the cam bushes well alone even if they appear slack on stripdown when the cam is unsupported at both ends, check cam for play in assembled cases, there is usually none, maybe replace idler pinion bushes if very worn.
While its all apart , check the oil pump flange is flat, usually there is pull up around the mounting studs, check the oil pump NRV ball seat, a decent magnifying glass will tell all, mine looked like a ploughed field, lap a sacrificial ball in to the seat with some grinding paste and flush out the pump or rebuild after. Even better fit a whole fresh new oil pump.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: gavin eisler] #704075
08/05/17 9:34 pm
08/05/17 9:34 pm
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 23
Ohio
Ron C Offline OP
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Ron C  Offline OP
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Ohio
Well a bit more sad findings. It appears I lost a portion of the valve train mount. The most important one which supplies oil to the entire top end. I found many of the parts in the pushrod hole but they have been chewed up pretty well. I can not imagine welding this, prob look for a new head and redo the valve job.

Serious bummer

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Ron C; 08/05/17 9:47 pm.
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #704099
08/06/17 8:30 am
08/06/17 8:30 am
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 798
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
Don't know if this is possible but here's an idea, you mill the broken area flat and then machine a steel replacement to sit on top, rather like a conrod big end cap.

The replacement would be held in place by bolts so you would have to drill into the head and have enough depth for them to be threaded. Avoiding the oil line could be a problem, maybe two small bolts either side would work?

Anyway just an idea to help save an otherwise good head.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #704112
08/06/17 1:19 pm
08/06/17 1:19 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,847
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
A good machine shop should be able to remake that section. Weld and line bore to make it like new. My local shop is redoing a front gallery side mount for one of my heads which I bought. It had been repaired but the hole not finished properly, in my case they will sleeve it.


beerchug
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Allan Gill] #704140
08/06/17 5:25 pm
08/06/17 5:25 pm
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 23
Ohio
Ron C Offline OP
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Ohio
Allan,

it the head weldable? I am assuming it is cast aluminum with a lot of oil contamination.

Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #704141
08/06/17 5:28 pm
08/06/17 5:28 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,375
Scotland
kommando Online content
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Scotland
Brit bike cases weld very well according to my welder, he would complain if not wink

Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #704205
08/07/17 7:58 am
08/07/17 7:58 am
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Posts: 3,743
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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Originally Posted by Ron C
Allan,

it the head weldable? I am assuming it is cast aluminum with a lot of oil contamination.


I gas weld alloy without any problems ( now that I have Tinmans excellent lenses ) because it is slow and the impurities just burn off and float o the surface.
The problem comes with electric welding which is very violent and anything that is liquid ( like pores with oil in them ) explode .
If it is a big bit of liquid to pops and blows molten alloy every where is if is very small it makes a void in the weld.
Electic welders also seem to be unable to properly warm the cases which causes too much chill and the welds fall out.
Torch welding lease the part fully solution heat treated and fairly soft
Electric welding leaves the part quite hard .
You often see beads of MIG on alloy plate tp stiffen it .


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Ron C] #704208
08/07/17 10:21 am
08/07/17 10:21 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,383
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Mark Parker  Offline
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Bega NSW Australia
MAP make some nice steel 'H' section rods hardly any heavier than stock alloys which fatigue. At the price I wouldn't buy new bolts and nuts I'd buy new rods.


mark
Re: A65 timing side bushing service info needed [Re: Mark Parker] #704210
08/07/17 11:23 am
08/07/17 11:23 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,847
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Originally Posted by Mark Parker
MAP make some nice steel 'H' section rods hardly any heavier than stock alloys which fatigue. At the price I wouldn't buy new bolts and nuts I'd buy new rods.


Thats my sentiments. Although I have been sticking with Alu' rods (from Thunder engineering) I guess if they are fine in racing vehicles my A65 will be fine with them too, and have been. I took one rod out of commision when I ran the motor dry of oil, it had locked the crank with the material from the shells, and made a rough apearance to the rod face. When i cleaned up the ARP bolts I could see that they had received enough heat and stress to turn them blue and purple. I replaced the rod and happy days, but I still think that had I been using the stock rods that they would have certainly failed and took out my barrel and crank cases with it.


beerchug
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