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#701140 - 07/08/17 8:23 pm 1970 USA A65L Wiring?  
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Would one of you guys with an American model A65L please have a look in the headlight and tell me exactly what wires you have coming out of the main harness only. Please only the main harness, not the sub harnesses.

I am having trouble sorting out my wiring, what is in the headlight, does not match the 1970 wiring diagram? the harness is the original Lucas item.


Another question, what fault would you get if the Zenner diode was faulty?


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1950 Vincent Comet
1952 Norton Special
1963 BSA Super Rocket
1970 BSA A65 Lightning
1973 Moto Guzzi Eldorado x2
2009 Triumph Bonneville (now sold)



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#701175 - 07/09/17 3:52 am Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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Hi Kev,

Nothing peculiar about "an American model A65L", Lucas supplied the same or essentially-similar harnesses for other contemporary A65's, A50's, BSA's and Triumphs. You should be seeing:-

. Brown/Blue from the battery and Brown/White from the rectifier for connection to the ammeter;

. another Brown/White(?) and several Whites for connection to the ignition switch; White/Blue might also be present, connect to the Whites;

. White/Brown or Red/Green to the oil pressure switch;

. Brown/Green to the tail lamp and Brown to the brake lamp;

. several Reds;

. you might also be seeing Black/White and Black/Yellow to the condensers?

Originally Posted by Kev.
what is in the headlight, does not match the 1970 wiring diagram? the harness is the original Lucas item.

So what's 'missing' and/or 'additional'?

Originally Posted by Kev.
Another question, what fault would you get if the Zenner diode was faulty?

Depends whether it's failed 'closed' or 'open':-

. 'closed' (conducting all the time) will blow the fuse every time you make the last connection to battery or fuse;

. 'open' (never conducting) you won't know 'til you can start and run the engine; if you don't check it then, it'll boil the battery dry and bugger any electronics (because the alternator Volts varying by rpm won't be being limited in the DC system).

Hth.

Regards,

#701182 - 07/09/17 7:48 am Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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By 1970 didn't California have compulsory lights on ?
If so the light switch wires would not be there only the dip switch connections .


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#701189 - 07/09/17 9:36 am Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: BSA_WM20]  
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Hi Trevor,

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
By 1970 didn't California have compulsory lights on ?
If so the light switch wires would not be there only the dip switch connections .

Kev specifically posted:-

Originally Posted by Kev.
in the headlight <snip> wires ... coming out of the main harness only. Please only the main harness, not the sub harnesses.

... lighting toggle switch and dipswitch connections are within the "headlight [shell]"?

The workshop manual shows only different wiring diagrams for US and UK & General Export; afaict, the only difference between them is the different connection of the Lighting switch supply on the Ignition switch (which doesn't even require different US and UK&GE main harnesses) so the Lighting is either switched off with the ignition (US) or not (UK&GE, because of the 'parking lights' legal requirement)?

Afaik, Small Heath would not know which specific US state a bike was destined for, only the West or East coast importer? So modifications for a specific state would be made by the importer or dealer, and these wouldn't be within the main harness?

Hth.

Regards,

#701356 - 07/10/17 5:37 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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Right so in an attempt to sort out the wiring in and around the headlamp assembly I need to show you what I have. So like I said before I want to concentrate on the wires coming from the main harness at the headlight.....

So first some pictures...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

help


http://kevindean.zenfolio.com/

http://backstreetthunder.wordpress.com/

1950 Vincent Comet
1952 Norton Special
1963 BSA Super Rocket
1970 BSA A65 Lightning
1973 Moto Guzzi Eldorado x2
2009 Triumph Bonneville (now sold)



#701358 - 07/10/17 6:29 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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1970 harnesses added green/red and green/white for indicators that were not fitted, so you can ignore these wires for now. I have them in my B44 Victor 1970 and T120 1970 harnesses, I will use them for indicators one of these days but they are redundant in a normal restoration of a 70.

#701402 - 07/11/17 1:45 am Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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Hi Kev,

Originally Posted by Kev.
help

G'wan, g'is a clue ... you've listed the wires correctly, "kommando's" explained about the indicator wires, what else do you want to know?

Btw, you don't have to use the shonky perished shell grommet, they're available new. Not sure what part number the dealers have it under, I've always bought from Autosparks.

Hth.

Regards,

#701460 - 07/11/17 4:27 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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Ok then, we shall start here...

Number 7, Brown/Black is the return for the horn, and goes up to the horn button where it earths out to the handlebar,

The feed to the horn is a Brown/Blue wire as seen here...

[Linked Image]

But where is the feed coming from? I can't find the other end of this wire, and if I put a meter from the V- wire at the battery, to the Brown/Blue at the horn, I get no reading with the ignition switch on or off?

Last edited by Kev.; 07/11/17 7:58 pm. Reason: wrong colour info

http://kevindean.zenfolio.com/

http://backstreetthunder.wordpress.com/

1950 Vincent Comet
1952 Norton Special
1963 BSA Super Rocket
1970 BSA A65 Lightning
1973 Moto Guzzi Eldorado x2
2009 Triumph Bonneville (now sold)



#701480 - 07/11/17 7:13 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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Hi Kev,

Originally Posted by Kev.
Number 7, Brown/Black is the return for the horn, and goes up to the horn button where it earths out to the handlebar,
The feed to the horn is a Red/Blue wire

Nope, that's Brown/Blue, ...

Originally Posted by Kev.
where is the feed coming from? I can't find the other end of this wire,

... as in "attached to battery negative" ... smile

Originally Posted by Kev.
if I put a meter from the V- wire at the battery, to the Red/Blue at the horn, I get no reading with the ignition switch on or off?

The horn is supplied direct from battery -ve by the Brown/Blue wire, so not seeing any continuity between the battery and horn ends of the wire is a fault. frown

Once you have the battery connection to one horn terminal, as you've noted, the Brown/Black goes from the horn's other contact to the handlebar button. Then if, when pressed, the button does actually contact the handlebar, certainly the theory is: the handlebar is part of the structure of the bike, the frame is attached to battery +ve, therefore contacts between the various metal parts of the bike between the handlebar and battery +ve form the return conductor of the horn circuit.

Btw, this is so the horn can be sounded - in an emergency - even if the ignition switch is off.

In practice, "the handlebar is part of the structure of the bike, the frame is attached to battery +ve, therefore contacts between the various metal parts of the bike between the handlebar and battery +ve form the return conductor of the horn circuit" is unmitigated crap. facepalm If the handlebar switch cluster containing the horn button doesn't have a wire to be connected to the harness Red return wires network, add one to something on the handlebar nearby,

Btw, as your A65's a Lightning, it would actually have had twin horns supplied through a Lucas 6RA/33188 relay; if you look at pages 70-75 of the '70 parts book, the horns are no.64 (left and right) and the relay is no.28. In this case, Brown/Blue is attached to one relay terminal, Brown/Black is attached to a second relay terminal and one wire from each horn is attached to the third relay terminal. Pressing the handlebar horn button activates the relay, which sounds the horns.

Original horns are rocking-horse poo but good-looking arrangements can be contrived if you fancy something louder than the strangled squawk from a cheapo single horn.

Hth.

Regards,

#701486 - 07/11/17 8:03 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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Thanks Stuart, I changed the wire colour above.

If you look at the wiring diagram it shows three wires coming from the Ammeter, one of which feeds the horn, but there is only one on my Ammeter? and only one wire leaving the battery as a live feed, so where does the horn wire join the loom?


http://kevindean.zenfolio.com/

http://backstreetthunder.wordpress.com/

1950 Vincent Comet
1952 Norton Special
1963 BSA Super Rocket
1970 BSA A65 Lightning
1973 Moto Guzzi Eldorado x2
2009 Triumph Bonneville (now sold)



#701489 - 07/11/17 8:38 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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Is this the wiring diagram you are using.

[Linked Image]

#701494 - 07/11/17 9:18 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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yes same one bigt


http://kevindean.zenfolio.com/

http://backstreetthunder.wordpress.com/

1950 Vincent Comet
1952 Norton Special
1963 BSA Super Rocket
1970 BSA A65 Lightning
1973 Moto Guzzi Eldorado x2
2009 Triumph Bonneville (now sold)



#701543 - 07/12/17 6:35 am Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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Hi Kev,

Originally Posted by Kev.
If you look at the wiring diagram it shows three wires coming from the Ammeter,

Mmmm ... wiring diagrams aren't usually a reflection of physical reality - after all, the "tail light" and "stop light" aren't physically next to the tachometer. smile The "2MC Capacitor" is normally mounted under the seat when fitted, so wiring harnesses usually have the connections for it around there, not a duplicate Brown/Blue wire from the ammeter back to near the battery on the off-chance an owner might fit the capacitor.

Ime, depending where the horn/s is/are mounted on the bike physically, the harness might've had any of:-

. wrapped in the harness, one Brown/Blue between battery -ve and horn/relay and another from horn/relay to ammeter, crimped into the same Lucar female spade at the horn;

. wrapped in the harness, a bullet snap connector with Brown/Blue wires to battery -ve, ammeter and horn/relay;

. a physically-separate Brown/Blue wire from ammeter to horn/relay location, that's missing from your bike.

If you need more wire in the correct colour/s, terminals, etc., I've used Autosparks and VWP for years; ime, particularly Autosparks are happy to post a couple of metres of wire and/or a handful of terminals on their own in a Jiffy bag without needing the full-monty minimum p&p. bigt

Hth.

Regards,

#701565 - 07/12/17 2:40 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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I am not certain these diagrams are 100% accurate, when I was restoring my Victor and using a 70 harness I found the best match was a 69 TR25W diagram with a little bit of 70 Victor. As you have a single Brown/Blue wire at the ammeter maybe this is one to use from the B44 Shooting Star handbook published Feb 69 but it has no ref to relays or air horns and only one cylinder, you will note the 2 Brown/Blue are at the horn not the Ammeter in this one and the 2MC Brown/Blue comes off the rectifier when fitted. As Stuart says you still need to find the other end of the Brown/Blue wire, it should be on the offshoot nearest to the horn with a brown/black wire too.

Note how both diagrams have 3 Brown/Blue but even being wired differently they connect to the same 3 components, Ammeter, Horn and 2MC, there was method to the madness, I think wink .

[Linked Image]

#701570 - 07/12/17 3:45 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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.... not an actual representation of physical location....

Potential and not configuration. That pretty much sums up my interpretation of all schematics, except exploded mechanicals. .

Kev, do you have the horn relay mounted up to the headstay? Don't you have the dual horns?
Those .250 female connectors you photographed plug right onto two of the three relay terminals.
A dual feed from the remaining terminal on the relay goes directly to each horn.
Both horns are "grounded" separately by their respective mounting bracket bolts with a short ringed lead relying on the 12+ bonded to the chassis.

So what's the problem?

Don in Nipomo

#701576 - 07/12/17 4:31 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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The new Wassell 'Lucas' harnesses come with a Schematic which makes more sense than the old diagrams.

This is the one for the A65 69/70

[Linked Image]

According to the Wassell Lucas site the T120 1969/70 harness was also used on the A65/A50 1969/70, that cannot be true.

So same Lucas number but different Wassell numbers says they have something wrong so do not take the diagram as gospel.

54955256 Lucas Main Wiring Harness Triumph T120 (69-70) Lucas WW19113C
54955256 Lucas Main Wiring Harness BSA A50,A65 (69-70) Lucas WW19129C

#701587 - 07/12/17 11:54 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: kommando]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted by kommando
According to the Wassell Lucas site the T120 1969/70 harness was also used on the A65/A50 1969/70, that cannot be true.
same Lucas number but different Wassell numbers says they have something wrong

Wassell talking out of the company arse. frown From the relevant parts books:-

'70 A65 "Main Wiring Harness" - 54955258
'70 T120R/TR6R "Main Wiring Harness" - 54957095 ...

Originally Posted by kommando
so do not take the diagram as gospel.
The new Wassell 'Lucas' harnesses come with a Schematic which makes more sense than the old diagrams.

Really? Ime, the "new Wassell" ones were crayoned in by the local nursery ... frown

Hth.

Regards,

#701628 - 07/13/17 4:06 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: kommando]  
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Originally Posted by kommando
I am not certain these diagrams are 100% accurate, when I was restoring my Victor and using a 70 harness I found the best match was a 69 TR25W diagram with a little bit of 70 Victor. As you have a single Brown/Blue wire at the ammeter maybe this is one to use from the B44 Shooting Star handbook published Feb 69 but it has no ref to relays or air horns and only one cylinder, you will note the 2 Brown/Blue are at the horn not the Ammeter in this one and the 2MC Brown/Blue comes off the rectifier when fitted. As Stuart says you still need to find the other end of the Brown/Blue wire, it should be on the offshoot nearest to the horn with a brown/black wire too.

Note how both diagrams have 3 Brown/Blue but even being wired differently they connect to the same 3 components, Ammeter, Horn and 2MC, there was method to the madness, I think wink .


Thank you, that is certainly a lot closer to the original wiring than the supposed correct diagram!!
I shall have another look on Saturday to see why the horn feed is not getting any power from the battery?


http://kevindean.zenfolio.com/

http://backstreetthunder.wordpress.com/

1950 Vincent Comet
1952 Norton Special
1963 BSA Super Rocket
1970 BSA A65 Lightning
1973 Moto Guzzi Eldorado x2
2009 Triumph Bonneville (now sold)



#701629 - 07/13/17 4:19 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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Which then brings me to my next question, the oil pressure switch...

[Linked Image]

As you can see here, Red/Green, number 9 in the headlight...

[Linked Image]

but what does it join up too? where does it get its feed from?


http://kevindean.zenfolio.com/

http://backstreetthunder.wordpress.com/

1950 Vincent Comet
1952 Norton Special
1963 BSA Super Rocket
1970 BSA A65 Lightning
1973 Moto Guzzi Eldorado x2
2009 Triumph Bonneville (now sold)



#701631 - 07/13/17 5:02 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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The White wires feed -ve 12V to the headlight shell when the ignition is turned on, you take a feed off that to one of the oil warning light terminals, connect the red/green to the other oil warning light terminal, that then goes to the oil pressure switch which is on when there is no pressure as it then connects to earth and so no need for a red wire, the engine needs to be connected in some way back to the battery +ve terminal to make the full loop -ve to +ve and the light is on when the oil pressure is low.

#701847 - 07/15/17 6:21 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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Horn now working (user error) see the blue spade connector below, well some useless idiot (me) crimped it to the insulation, and missing the wire! So I cut it off and fitted a new one, now it all works.

[Linked Image]


http://kevindean.zenfolio.com/

http://backstreetthunder.wordpress.com/

1950 Vincent Comet
1952 Norton Special
1963 BSA Super Rocket
1970 BSA A65 Lightning
1973 Moto Guzzi Eldorado x2
2009 Triumph Bonneville (now sold)



#701849 - 07/15/17 6:32 pm Re: 1970 USA A65L Wiring? [Re: Kev.]  
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Geeeze.... home mechanics! smirk

Don in Nipomo


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