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#700768 - 07/04/17 9:31 pm 69 a65t wet sumping.  
Joined: Aug 2011
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BSA-Jay Offline
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BSA-Jay  Offline
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Boonton, NJ, USA
my 69 thunderbolt has begun sumping a ridiculous amount of oil through the primary chain case breather... so much so that the crank case is full of oil(pissing out the timing plug when removed) and the oil bag is empty. I pulled the timing side cover, and the pump.. all seems to be in good order (although the pump gets a bit tight 3/4's through a full turn). anyone have any idea of what else i should look at/address? any thoughts are much appreciated.


1967 BSA Lightning(w)
1969 BSA Thunderbolt(e)
1966 BSA Thunderbolt(?)
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#700772 - 07/04/17 10:11 pm Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: BSA-Jay]  
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NickL Offline
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Aus
Is it returning oil to the tank when running?

Take the sump plate off and check the gauze, if its coated in crap it wont return much.
Check the ball in the sump pipe is not stuck, it should be free at the end of the tube.
Put a new o-ring in the pump.
Put a new gasket (one that fits) on the pump.
Tap the non return ball bearing into its seat LIGHTLY, then fit a new spring.



#700777 - 07/04/17 10:49 pm Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: NickL]  
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BSA-Jay Offline
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Boonton, NJ, USA
Originally Posted by NickL
Is it returning oil to the tank when running?

Take the sump plate off and check the gauze, if its coated in crap it wont return much.
Check the ball in the sump pipe is not stuck, it should be free at the end of the tube.
Put a new o-ring in the pump.
Put a new gasket (one that fits) on the pump.
Tap the non return ball bearing into its seat LIGHTLY, then fit a new spring.


not at all.. nothing is coming back to the tank, surprised i haven't bent anything. I ordered new washers, o-rings, gaskets, springs and balls for the pump, and OPRV. the send/return lines are 2 weeks old and made sure they were clear of debris, and not over tightened on the tank or the union.
I checked the ball in the scavenge pipe, and it seems to move freely.. im going to pound it with some carb cleanner and compressed air to make sure the return ports are clear, and reassemble when the rest of the bits come in on Friday.

thanks!


1967 BSA Lightning(w)
1969 BSA Thunderbolt(e)
1966 BSA Thunderbolt(?)
#700782 - 07/04/17 11:35 pm Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: BSA-Jay]  
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NickL Offline
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Try priming the pump, fill the return line and the pressure side with plenty of oil when re-assembling.

I take it the lines are the right way around?
Check the sump pipe is not loose in the cases too. It's a bugger if it is as you'll have to split them to correct it..

Nick



#700813 - 07/05/17 6:04 am Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: BSA-Jay]  
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Is this a new pump or OG?

#700877 - 07/05/17 9:01 pm Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: C.B.S]  
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BSA-Jay Offline
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the pump i have is an original.. (as far as i can tell). Ive had this bike since 09' and never once had to mess with it.


1967 BSA Lightning(w)
1969 BSA Thunderbolt(e)
1966 BSA Thunderbolt(?)
#700885 - 07/05/17 10:06 pm Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: NickL]  
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BSA-Jay Offline
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Boonton, NJ, USA
Originally Posted by NickL
Try priming the pump, fill the return line and the pressure side with plenty of oil when re-assembling.

I take it the lines are the right way around?
Check the sump pipe is not loose in the cases too. It's a bugger if it is as you'll have to split them to correct it..

Nick

Nick,

the scavenge is in there proper, ball is moving as it should. Lines are correct.
I did notice today was when i took the spring from my donor pump(out of a 67 a65L), I matched it up with what came out of the 69.... aaaand the one from the 69 is about 1/4" shorter than the 67. Checked the parts book for 67 and 69, spring is exactly the same P#.
I'm starting to think that whomever had this before me kinda cobbled some bits together to get it going.


1967 BSA Lightning(w)
1969 BSA Thunderbolt(e)
1966 BSA Thunderbolt(?)
#700886 - 07/05/17 10:18 pm Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: BSA-Jay]  
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NickL Offline
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That would explain the wet sumping but not the return issue.
Make sure that the pump is sitting squarely on the case and the gasket is sealing all around it, when you put it back together.
Any air drawn into that side will stop the return working properly.

With the lightning pump you can test it in situ as the tacho drive can have a small piece of plastic tube pushed over it and driven by a portable drill,
the standard t'bolt pump has no tacho drive so that's not on. It's only a guide but it does help, it tells you the return is working and may sometimes
show pump flange leaks up.



#701065 - 07/07/17 11:16 pm Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: NickL]  
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BSA-Jay Offline
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Boonton, NJ, USA
Originally Posted by NickL
That would explain the wet sumping but not the return issue.
Make sure that the pump is sitting squarely on the case and the gasket is sealing all around it, when you put it back together.
Any air drawn into that side will stop the return working properly.

With the lightning pump you can test it in situ as the tacho drive can have a small piece of plastic tube pushed over it and driven by a portable drill,
the standard t'bolt pump has no tacho drive so that's not on. It's only a guide but it does help, it tells you the return is working and may sometimes
show pump flange leaks up.


Thanks Nick,
i got all the intake/return galleys flushed out and cleaned, pump and OPRV rebuilt(oprv was completely gunked up). When i spin the pump its is definitely pushing oil both ways. my last question is with the pump base and 4 bolts.. should the pump/tach spindle spin easily by hand when not installed? Because when i tighten down even slightly on the bolts the pump locks up/ wont spin by hand. I cant seem to find it listed in my work shop manual or articles.

Last edited by BSA-Jay; 07/07/17 11:33 pm. Reason: missed a word or 2

1967 BSA Lightning(w)
1969 BSA Thunderbolt(e)
1966 BSA Thunderbolt(?)
#701088 - 07/08/17 6:32 am Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: BSA-Jay]  
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Gnashville
Originally Posted by BSA-Jay
When i spin the pump its is definitely pushing oil both ways. my last question is with the pump base and 4 bolts.. should the pump/tach spindle spin easily by hand when not installed? Because when i tighten down even slightly on the bolts the pump locks up/ wont spin by hand. I cant seem to find it listed in my work shop manual or articles.

I guess it "should" but almost none of them do. I have several pumps, one iron and the rest crap metal, and in every case if I tighten these bolts more than barely tight enough to hold the plate on they don't spin freely by hand. Is this normal? Maybe for BSA, You tell me.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#701157 - 07/08/17 11:16 pm Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: BSA-Jay]  
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NickL Offline
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Thats part of rebuilding one of these pumps. Bloody hours of work on a flat plate or if you are lucky enough a surface grinder.

The pump should turn over easily with your fingers, only attention to all the body surfaces and the gears will achieve this.
It equates to hours of lapping to get surfaces flat and square.. If you don't do it the pump will leak and not only wet sump but will never deliver correct flow/pressure.

What normally causes problems is people over tightening them both onto the case and the end plate.
If you haven't a lot of patience just buy a new SRM one, if you have, get a sheet of glass and start now..............



#701172 - 07/09/17 1:29 am Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: BSA-Jay]  
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NickL Offline
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A drop of Welseal on the surfaces when re-assembling is all that should be needed.
It sometimes helps if you index the gears around and find the nicest meshing point as well.
Use the old ball bearing with a little paste to lap the seat for the non return valve, then discard it and use a new ball.
Wash it all in petrol repeatedly with a clean brush.

Once the assembly is done and you are happy with the pump, the total face side should be addressed so that is flat too.
If you are using the stock studs in the case, remove them and slightly countersink the holes, then check that area is flat.
I always use 3 x 2 1/4 inch x 1/4 UNC allen bolts and shakeproof washers for fitting as it means the pump can be
tested/checked in situ or removed without the worm drive on the crank.

It is never a quick job!



#701183 - 07/09/17 7:53 am Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: NickL]  
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And what most forget to do

REPLACE THE BLOODY SPRING.

The spring is only light so testing it is quite deceptive.
With hot oil passing over it all the time, it looses its temper a lot faster than valve spings do, thus goes soft .
Every A 65 owner should have a few in their parts stash so any and every time the pump comes off the spring gets replaced.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#701468 - 07/11/17 5:52 pm Re: 69 a65t wet sumping. [Re: BSA-Jay]  
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wales uk
I,m not so sure about the non return of oil to the tank , sounds very much like crossed pipes , very easy to do.
but , one problem I encountered was shitty made gaskets stopping the ball seating correctly. Most gaskets ive used , ive had to open up the hole for the bearing in the gasket , the bulk of em are pretty crap


1969 BSA A65 Lightning
1995 moto guzzi California
Triumph sprint GT
1971 BSA B50 Victor special

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