Hello everyone. Last week a bought a 1966 BSA Lightning. I knew the motor was locked up when I bought it, but it was cheap enough I couldn't pass it up. Frame is solid, numbers match, clear title, and no damage to the outside of the engine. The transmission is free, but the motor is def locked up. I've been soaking the pistons in ATF/acetone for the last couple of days and have been putting heat to it, but have had no luck so far. To make things more difficult, the pistons are just about TDC. That being the case, has anyone ever seen/used this method before? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3tsIsq3E43Y. Would this work on the BSA?
Now the whole reason I bought this was to get some experience rebuilding an engine. If nothing ends up working and I can't free the pistons, will I be able to split the cases with the pistons still stuck and just start my rebuild from there? Or do I have to get the pistons free first?

2 days is just the start, you just have to try rocking the rear wheel in 4th for 10 to 15 mins each day while looking at the crank nut, once that starts moving you can start working it more as you will not be far away from breaking it clear.

putting all the strain on the gearbox and primairy chain.

why not use a "pneumatische slagmoersleutel", or an air impact wrench set to clock-wise direction and the correct socket, 1 inch. on the crankshaftnut of course
and 2 days is just a start.
regards A

+1 to Kommando. You cant split the motor with pistons stuck at TDC , the barrels wont lift .

Ive not seen the video technique before, Looks good.
Other alternatives that work. Use a grease gun to push the pistons down , make a grease / zerk/ nipple adaptor ( this type, button head http://shop.hle.co.uk/shop/grease-nipples-connectors-accessories/steel-button-head-greese-nipples/) up using an old spark plug fitted with the grease- ing point. Valves need to be closed for this , so tricky on a twin, . it will be the cylinder that has a valve or two open that is most stuck. The head would need to come off then both sett of push rods removed, not a bad plan but difficult to access the head bolts without pulling rocker shafts which may be under load from the cams/ valve springs ( short of sacrificing a push rod or two this may be impossible, you may get lucky and be able to back off the valve/tappet adjuster screws so that you get enough room to wiggle out the push rods, use a large adjustable on the rocker arm to compress the valve spring and create clearance to get the push rods out), ensure valves are closed then refit to try grease pressure , or.

Remove the head, and make a pusher plate out of a steel plate that fits the head bolt pattern. fit the plate with nylon or somesuch buttons between the pistons and plate , then apply pressure by tightening the head plate bolts.If you use less than the head bolt torque( 30 ft / lbs) you wont do any harm.

Or let time do its thing, give the ATF / Acetone heat /cool thing at least a month before getting more drastic.

So yes , short answer, You do have to get the pistons unstuck first, but if you are keen to get the tools out the head will come off with a struggle. If its a 66 you will need BSF/ W spanners / wrenches ( please dont call them Whitworth, Whit is a coarse thread form, your bike has mostly BSF and CEI threaded fasteners.), the fastener sizes are nearly all old imperial stuff, although there are close fits in AF and metric sizes , the correct tools will be easier to use. Use the time its soaking to hunt up old tools at yard sales or e bay.

Read the stuff on this link, You will be tested later.
http://www.baconsdozen.co.uk/tools/conversion%20charts.htm

Get a couple of 14mm bolts , drill a hole through them and fit grease nipples.
If you are near TDC then back off all the rockers to close all valves roll the engine so a plug hole is the highest point fill the cylinder with grease then put the bolt in the plug hole.
Do the same on the other side.
Now using a high pressure grease gun, pump each side.
When you can not pumpany more, if the pistons have not moved heat the bore around where the pistons will be.

As a last resort you can remove the head and using a plastic or aluminum drift hit the front and rear of the piston domes to get them to rock in the bores to free them. Worst case is to drill/break the pistons out. They may be unusable anyway if they seized.

Awesome, thanks for the advice everyone! I'll let it soak a bit more then try the grease gun or pusher plate ideas. Everything I've read is that the ATF/acetone mix is by far the best penetrator to use. Does everyone here agree with that? The problem I'm having with it is, being that I've already removed the head, it seems like the acetone is evaporating too quickly and just leaving me with the ATF part of the mixture. Guess I should reattach the head and pour it through the spark plugs?
I did make some progress today though. I removed the cylinder nuts then rotated the crank a bit. The cylinder lifted off the cases about an inch. So it's not quite TDC, and I now know for certain it's stuck pistons and not a blown rod. Good news. Now the hard part.........waiting.

Acetone/ATF mix is good but the acetone does evaporate so head back on.

One of the methods I used to free off a siezed engine was to remove the nuts from the base of the cylinder, turn the engine over until the cylinders are clear of the studs, then twist the cylinders from side to side, worked for me.

You didnt say the head was already off. With the head off you can use the solvent mix as a sacrificial fire altar, add a little diesel to the puddle, get your camera out, maybe a fire extinguisher, definitely get a mate round for laughs.
Set fire to the mix, take pics. If that doesnt free it off when cool, add more ATF ACe mix, rinse and repeat. Repeated expansion / contraction will free stuck rings very effectively. Do not get frustrated it will let go eventually, persistence is needed.
Maybe not a good idea with the motor in the frame.

"One of the methods I used to free off a siezed engine was to remove the nuts from the base of the cylinder, turn the engine over until the cylinders are clear of the studs, then twist the cylinders from side to side, worked for me."
This carries a risk, bending the rods is very possible if you get over enthusiastic.

To stop the solvent evaporating put a plastic bag over the cylinders.

Kroil.

http://www.kanolabs.com/

Well Gavin, I took the bait. The fire alter sounded like too much fun to pass up. Though I had to add one more step to your instructions and throw in a six pack.

I'll see if we've made any progress tomorrow.

I have freed up many an A65 I use a brass hammer and sometimes a big 1" or bigger socket don't be afraid to hit it. Pistons are not that bad or expensive to replace. I would replace them anyway. Keep heat on it and oil as you hit away face it A65 parts are all over the place so even if you have to cut the top off no big deal I have rods and a jug laying around if you need them. Keep in mind when you get into the bottom end you are going to need the proper pullers. Clutch hub cam gear .

Bottom end & sludge tube needs cleaned, inspected. don't waste time bust out the pistons and rock on

So was it successful?

Ed from NJ

Hi,
As the cylinder clears the studs there's nothing to stop you stripping the bottom end and then "pushing" the pistons out
John

See below.
+1

For what it's worth, all the on-line recommendations for ATF/acetone seem to trace back to an article in the amateur Machinist's Workshop magazine of ten years ago. That article reported the results of a badly designed "experiment," and if anyone has subsequently done a believable set of experiments on penetrating fluids I haven't stumbled across it.

There's a 'gee-whiz' aspect of being able to mix your own penetrating fluid that beats anything commercially available that seems to attract people to ATF/acetone in the same way advertisers discovered that the words "A weird trick to..." works as click bait. One has to wonder if ATF/acetone is better than anything else, why hasn't it been packaged commercially, in which case it would beat all the other commercial products on the market? For some reason some things become more believable for a lot of people the more unbelievable they are.

Anyway, to free rusty steel fasteners (or piston rings) you need a penetrating fluid with a low enough viscosity and surface tension that it can penetrate through the microcracks in the rust. To some extent ATF in acetone satisfies this. But, you also need an ingredient that chemically "reduces" the iron oxide, i.e. breaks the Fe-O chemical bonds to "dissolve" the rust. Even if a fluid makes it through the microcracks to displace the air in those cracks, unless the oxide bonds are broken the fastener will be held by the still-present oxide with the same strength as before so the presence of a lubricant in the microcracks won't do any good. Only after the fastener has moved will the presence of a lubricant do any good. As an aside, molasses does an excellent job "dissolving" iron oxide so other than the fact it, well, flows like molasses it would be a candidate ingredient.

The MSDS of ATF fluids doesn't help to know if additives are present that incidentally reduce iron oxide. Or, if they are present, if they are only in some of the approximately dozen variations of ATF sold for different applications. If an oxide-reducing additive is present in ATF the mixture would work to the extent it penetrates enough of the larger microcracks to "dissolve" enough rust to get things moving. To summarize, this home-made mixture may or may not work better than any commercial penetrating oil as is claimed, but I've certainly seen no evidence that it does.

Which brings us to my personal favorite penetrating oil, Kroil. It is very thin and flows well so it has that essential property that we want in a penetrating fluid. Importantly, it also "dissolves" the rust from a fastener dropped in it so it has that essential property as well. However, I have not done scientific experiments to try to compare its efficacy vs. other penetrating oils so perhaps there's something even better out there. But, I've used Kroil on a wide variety of rusty items for at least 25 years and I'm not looking for anything "better" because it's hard to imagine that, even if there is something better, that it could be much of an improvement over Kroil.

For anyone who is convinced by the above, there are two variations of Kroil: Kroil and SiliKroil ("the oil that creeps, plus silicone"). It might not be clear but AeroKroil isn't a different kind of penetrating oil, just the same stuff packaged in spray cans.

The only reason I can think of not to use the SiliKroil variation (of which I have at least a quart) is silicone contamination causes spray paint to "fisheye' so it could cause extra work if you're breaking fasteners loose in the same area where you do your painting.

A wonderful pic, hope its done the trick.

Cant get " Kroil" in the UK ( at least not in rural Scotland) so no experience, I have used " Plus gas" , in the past, dont like the smell.
My favourite used to be "Rustola", cant get it any more , it smelled great", ATF Acetone works for me and I can brew it up in the shed.

Nope, no success so far, but I'm going to keep at it. I do plan on doing a complete rebuild on it. So if nothing works I'm going to try to split the cases as is. The cylinder lifts just slightly above the studs so maybe I can make it happen. I'm going to let it soak for a couple more weeks and try the fire alter method a few more times first though. I ended up ordering some Kroil today. Looks like it's pretty good stuff. Thanks again for the help and suggestions everyone. I'll let y'all know when I get this old girl free again.

Oh, and Rob, I'm definitely interested in some of those parts. I'll PM you.

I tried the ATF/acetone method on the rust seized engine of the Benelli, unfortunately it did not work, and I had to revert to more drastic measures. The procuct named " Kroil" is not available where I live, not sure about equivalent products.
btw, do we see another victim of the Photobucket scam here ? This scam seem to mess up this forum pretty badly.

LiquidWrench is not available either?
A torch will put more heat into the piston than burning liquids on the surface. You could also heat the cylinder with a torch then spray Freeze-it (electronic cooling spray) on the piston to make a bigger expansion difference.

break free with clp worked for me. you can also build a push plate from 1/4 mild steel and bolt it to the block surface and jack it out.pounding is not my idea of a good time.

I haven't read the entire thread but... If you plan on rebuilding this engine then don't even bother to free the pistons. They're soaking right? So there's lubrication there. Take the head off, give the Pistons a light tap using a piece of softwood lumber. Place the wood on the piston/s then give a rap with a hammer. That'll do the trick. I bought a frozen TR6 and it worked a treat for me. By the way, mine were soaking for months and didn't budge.

Okay, just wanted to give a quick update. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, has worked on this thing. I've tried the fire alter numerous times now have had it soaking in kroil for a couple of weeks. I've pounded, smashed, and pressed the living daylights out of the pistons, but they wont even budge. I know this takes time and patience, but I've about lost all of it. Now, the good news is I picked up a same year model parts bike for $300. The motor is free in this one. So I'm going to use the cylinder off of this one for the one that is stuck. Now my question is how can I cut off the cylinder of the locked up motor without doing damage to the cases? Would I have to take it to a machine shop?

A stuck engine isn't always rusty rings. I soaked and tapped and worked on my T150 for a couple months, nothing worked but I wasn't gonna force it. I started taking it apart as much as I could and found this.



The center rod had spun, locked, bent the rod and broke the cylinder skirt. I could have beat on that until I ruined the motor but I didn't. It wasn't a cheap rebuild but it runs strong.

Okay, have you tried putting a correct size six point socket and breaker bar on the crankshaft end nut and tried to break it free yet ? Note - you must remove the primary cover.


My first ever British motorcycle was a froze up 1968 A65L and we poured kerosene into both cylinders through the plug holes and a week or two later I was able to break it free with the kick starter. Now, I know your engine is out of the frame.

Back in 2015 I bought a '74 Honda CB750 that was locked up/froze up. I did the acetone/ATF mix too. After a few months and it not breaking free with the kicker, I put the breaker bar on the crankshaft end nut and got it to break free. After spraying copious amounts of Sea Foam into the cylinders and adding new oil, filter and plugs, it runs like a champ.

Don't give up. But, I would forget about cutting cylinders off with some giant saw blade or what have you. Put some old fashioned force on it. It will break free.

Yeah, everything is taken off the motor except the cylinder. When I turn the crank the cylinder raises off the cases about an inch. Thats why I'm assuming it's stuck pistons. I was planning on splitting the cases like it is but the cylinder doesnt quite clear the studs, and I can't get a good grip on the inner nut that's holding the cases together

well you're not gonna save the pistons anyway. drill holes around the outside edge of the piston and work on them with a chisel, work them to the inside of the bore, collapse them to the inside. maybe a next overbore might clean them up

Might be worth trying one of the freezing penetrant sprays like This One

The idea is the spray freezes the metal which contracts, then penetration oil can get in and free things up.

I have never tried this but got to be worth a shot

Well despite the fact you decided to overlooks the grease method, I will give you a couple more.
If you have access to a demolition hammer or air chisel, support the barrels with the engine unsupported, hanging by the barrels to put some preload on the pistons .
Put something on top of the pistons to spread the load.
Using a flat ended tool ( plenishing hammer for the air chisel ) apply all of your weight on the tool & turn it on.
Go from one side to the other in short spells
I fix mowers and use this method to remove alloy wheels that have rusted solid onto steel axels.
20,000 tiny sharp blows a minute works a lot better than 20 tons applied slowly via a press . I have access to a 20 T press and all it ever did on these was bend all of the press tools.

Again it will not be quick, I can spend anything up to 2 hours to remove a wheel.


Considering what you have been doing I will assume reusing the rods are a no no
In this case you can cut through the rods using that 1" gap between the cases & the barrels. going to be hard work, but use a fine blade or better still a diamond dust tile cutting blade in a hack saw.

Last method is to hang it up side down from the cases and fill the pistons with Hydrachloric acid ( get it from a pool shop & come chloring to neutralise it when finished ).
Use a wash bottle to fill the pistons with the acid and have a big plastic bowl under neath to catch the acid.
HCl will not hurt COLD cast iron & the barrels will most likely be rusted so deep they will need to be sleeved in any case.
The head face only needs to be an inch or so above the bottom of the bowl cause once it moves 1" it will pull right off.
You will either eat through the piston or the rod.

This will take most of the day and no naked flames , cigirettes etc because you will be generatig a lot of H gas which of course likes to go Bang.

I would drill a 1/4" hole absolutely centrally in each piston then select a hole saw slightly smaller than the bore diameter. Go steady, the ring lands will break away and you can dig the rings out

the grease gun thing works. I freed up a frozen Allison V12 with a grease gun

Your analysis is a good one, but there's one aspect of "If It's So Good, Why Isn't It Being Marketed?" you haven't considered.

It may be the same thing that keeps anyone from selling tomatoes as good as the ones that I can grow in my garden. I'm not a tomato expert compared with someone that does tomato research for a big company for a living, BUT he has limitations that I don't have.

The person selling tomatoes on the market (or selling fresh bread) has to be able to package it, and ship it, and make it last long enough to get to the customer, and it has to be easily usable.

I don't have to worry about that. I can grow a tomato that would not survive shipping, that won't last more than a day or two off the vine, and has a spot or two on it that I can cut off. But in return, it has a MUCH better flavor and consistency than any store-bought tomato.

Perhaps it's similar for ATF/Acetone. It won't stay mixed for long, the acetone separates out, and you'd probably have to re-mix it once you opened the can, and in a week it wouldn't be any good. No problem for me in my shop, but a BIG problem for a guy trying to market "Acet-Free" or whatever it would be called. I've tried it, and it works ... so since I've always got ATF and acetone around in big cans for other purposes anyway, I save my $8.95 or whatever I'd pay for "PB Blaster" or "Liquid Wrech" or "Kroil" and just "roll my own" ....

Lannis

I have tried all sorts of things and the acetone ATF mixture is a bit better than WD 40 which is not primarily a penetrant it is a dewatering fluid which can penetrate loose dry corrosion.
Penetrene works , we don't get Kroll or PB down here.
Rusted on things respons very well to a rust disolving solution that does not have phosphoric acid in it.
You can easily tell thm because they will have a warning about the parts rusting again .

Warmng up the item , then cooling with penetrant works very well.

There is little in ATF to make it a good penetrant chemically.

AS previously mentioned we all love a conspracy and we all love a bargain
It is much like acetone in petrol.
A small amount will replace the aromatic fraction that is there to allow for easy starting at low temperatures on a cold engine , which it does, for a short while before it too evaporates.
Not all that long ago it was everywhere as remedy for pinking, octane boosting and MPG extender , none of which it will do, but is sounds good on Feaces Book or EWE -Tube ( if you are a sheep ).

Good news guys. She's free!!! I've been letting her sit in Kroil since my last post. Took a 4lb hammer to the pistons today and they eventually worked themselves out. Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions. I'm really glad I didn't go the more drastic route and cut the barrel off. Now it's time to rebuild! I even found a parts bike, same year model and freed up motor, for 200 bucks. Things are looking up!