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#699767 - 06/27/17 8:00 am Bought a locked up BSA A65  
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Msh5337 Offline
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Weatherford, TX
Hello everyone. Last week a bought a 1966 BSA Lightning. I knew the motor was locked up when I bought it, but it was cheap enough I couldn't pass it up. Frame is solid, numbers match, clear title, and no damage to the outside of the engine. The transmission is free, but the motor is def locked up. I've been soaking the pistons in ATF/acetone for the last couple of days and have been putting heat to it, but have had no luck so far. To make things more difficult, the pistons are just about TDC. That being the case, has anyone ever seen/used this method before? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3tsIsq3E43Y. Would this work on the BSA?
Now the whole reason I bought this was to get some experience rebuilding an engine. If nothing ends up working and I can't free the pistons, will I be able to split the cases with the pistons still stuck and just start my rebuild from there? Or do I have to get the pistons free first?

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#699770 - 06/27/17 8:34 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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kommando Online content
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Scotland
2 days is just the start, you just have to try rocking the rear wheel in 4th for 10 to 15 mins each day while looking at the crank nut, once that starts moving you can start working it more as you will not be far away from breaking it clear.

#699777 - 06/27/17 10:09 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: kommando]  
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lemans Offline
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netherlands
Originally Posted by kommando
2 days is just the start, you just have to try rocking the rear wheel in 4th for 10 to 15 mins each day while looking at the crank nut, once that starts moving you can start working it more as you will not be far away from breaking it clear.


putting all the strain on the gearbox and primairy chain.

why not use a "pneumatische slagmoersleutel", or an air impact wrench set to clock-wise direction and the correct socket, 1 inch. on the crankshaftnut of course
and 2 days is just a start.
regards A


Last edited by lemans; 06/27/17 10:10 am.
#699778 - 06/27/17 10:13 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
+1 to Kommando. You cant split the motor with pistons stuck at TDC , the barrels wont lift .

Ive not seen the video technique before, Looks good.
Other alternatives that work. Use a grease gun to push the pistons down , make a grease / zerk/ nipple adaptor ( this type, button head http://shop.hle.co.uk/shop/grease-nipples-connectors-accessories/steel-button-head-greese-nipples/) up using an old spark plug fitted with the grease- ing point. Valves need to be closed for this , so tricky on a twin, . it will be the cylinder that has a valve or two open that is most stuck. The head would need to come off then both sett of push rods removed, not a bad plan but difficult to access the head bolts without pulling rocker shafts which may be under load from the cams/ valve springs ( short of sacrificing a push rod or two this may be impossible, you may get lucky and be able to back off the valve/tappet adjuster screws so that you get enough room to wiggle out the push rods, use a large adjustable on the rocker arm to compress the valve spring and create clearance to get the push rods out), ensure valves are closed then refit to try grease pressure , or.

Remove the head, and make a pusher plate out of a steel plate that fits the head bolt pattern. fit the plate with nylon or somesuch buttons between the pistons and plate , then apply pressure by tightening the head plate bolts.If you use less than the head bolt torque( 30 ft / lbs) you wont do any harm.

Or let time do its thing, give the ATF / Acetone heat /cool thing at least a month before getting more drastic.

So yes , short answer, You do have to get the pistons unstuck first, but if you are keen to get the tools out the head will come off with a struggle. If its a 66 you will need BSF/ W spanners / wrenches ( please dont call them Whitworth, Whit is a coarse thread form, your bike has mostly BSF and CEI threaded fasteners.), the fastener sizes are nearly all old imperial stuff, although there are close fits in AF and metric sizes , the correct tools will be easier to use. Use the time its soaking to hunt up old tools at yard sales or e bay.

Read the stuff on this link, You will be tested later.
http://www.baconsdozen.co.uk/tools/conversion%20charts.htm


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#699779 - 06/27/17 10:15 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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Sydney Australia
Get a couple of 14mm bolts , drill a hole through them and fit grease nipples.
If you are near TDC then back off all the rockers to close all valves roll the engine so a plug hole is the highest point fill the cylinder with grease then put the bolt in the plug hole.
Do the same on the other side.
Now using a high pressure grease gun, pump each side.
When you can not pumpany more, if the pistons have not moved heat the bore around where the pistons will be.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#699827 - 06/27/17 5:11 pm Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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DMadigan Offline
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As a last resort you can remove the head and using a plastic or aluminum drift hit the front and rear of the piston domes to get them to rock in the bores to free them. Worst case is to drill/break the pistons out. They may be unusable anyway if they seized.

#699889 - 06/28/17 6:20 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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Msh5337 Offline
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Weatherford, TX
Awesome, thanks for the advice everyone! I'll let it soak a bit more then try the grease gun or pusher plate ideas. Everything I've read is that the ATF/acetone mix is by far the best penetrator to use. Does everyone here agree with that? The problem I'm having with it is, being that I've already removed the head, it seems like the acetone is evaporating too quickly and just leaving me with the ATF part of the mixture. Guess I should reattach the head and pour it through the spark plugs?
I did make some progress today though. I removed the cylinder nuts then rotated the crank a bit. The cylinder lifted off the cases about an inch. So it's not quite TDC, and I now know for certain it's stuck pistons and not a blown rod. Good news. Now the hard part.........waiting.

#699890 - 06/28/17 6:22 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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kommando Online content
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Acetone/ATF mix is good but the acetone does evaporate so head back on.

#699895 - 06/28/17 7:54 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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One of the methods I used to free off a siezed engine was to remove the nuts from the base of the cylinder, turn the engine over until the cylinders are clear of the studs, then twist the cylinders from side to side, worked for me.

#699903 - 06/28/17 9:25 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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gavin eisler Online content
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You didnt say the head was already off. With the head off you can use the solvent mix as a sacrificial fire altar, add a little diesel to the puddle, get your camera out, maybe a fire extinguisher, definitely get a mate round for laughs.
Set fire to the mix, take pics. If that doesnt free it off when cool, add more ATF ACe mix, rinse and repeat. Repeated expansion / contraction will free stuck rings very effectively. Do not get frustrated it will let go eventually, persistence is needed.
Maybe not a good idea with the motor in the frame.

"One of the methods I used to free off a siezed engine was to remove the nuts from the base of the cylinder, turn the engine over until the cylinders are clear of the studs, then twist the cylinders from side to side, worked for me."
This carries a risk, bending the rods is very possible if you get over enthusiastic.

To stop the solvent evaporating put a plastic bag over the cylinders.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#699939 - 06/28/17 6:01 pm Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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Geoff Offline
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'78 T140V
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'69 TR6R
'58 Allstate (Puch) 175
#699983 - 06/29/17 4:12 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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Msh5337 Offline
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Well Gavin, I took the bait. The fire alter sounded like too much fun to pass up. Though I had to add one more step to your instructions and throw in a six pack.
[Linked Image]
I'll see if we've made any progress tomorrow.

#700005 - 06/29/17 12:36 pm Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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Rob Rydell Offline
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FL
I have freed up many an A65 I use a brass hammer and sometimes a big 1" or bigger socket don't be afraid to hit it. Pistons are not that bad or expensive to replace. I would replace them anyway. Keep heat on it and oil as you hit away face it A65 parts are all over the place so even if you have to cut the top off no big deal I have rods and a jug laying around if you need them. Keep in mind when you get into the bottom end you are going to need the proper pullers. Clutch hub cam gear .

#700013 - 06/29/17 1:40 pm Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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bodine031 Online content
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Bottom end & sludge tube needs cleaned, inspected. don't waste time bust out the pistons and rock on

#700017 - 06/29/17 2:07 pm Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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edunham Offline
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So was it successful?

Ed from NJ

#700029 - 06/29/17 3:41 pm Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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chaterlea25 Online content
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Cork Ireland
Hi,
As the cylinder clears the studs there's nothing to stop you stripping the bottom end and then "pushing" the pistons out
John

#700034 - 06/29/17 4:22 pm Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Geoff]  
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Magnetoman Online content
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Originally Posted by Msh5337
Everything I've read is that the ATF/acetone mix is by far the best penetrator to use. Does everyone here agree with that?
See below.
Originally Posted by Geoff
Kroil.
+1

For what it's worth, all the on-line recommendations for ATF/acetone seem to trace back to an article in the amateur Machinist's Workshop magazine of ten years ago. That article reported the results of a badly designed "experiment," and if anyone has subsequently done a believable set of experiments on penetrating fluids I haven't stumbled across it.

There's a 'gee-whiz' aspect of being able to mix your own penetrating fluid that beats anything commercially available that seems to attract people to ATF/acetone in the same way advertisers discovered that the words "A weird trick to..." works as click bait. One has to wonder if ATF/acetone is better than anything else, why hasn't it been packaged commercially, in which case it would beat all the other commercial products on the market? For some reason some things become more believable for a lot of people the more unbelievable they are.

Anyway, to free rusty steel fasteners (or piston rings) you need a penetrating fluid with a low enough viscosity and surface tension that it can penetrate through the microcracks in the rust. To some extent ATF in acetone satisfies this. But, you also need an ingredient that chemically "reduces" the iron oxide, i.e. breaks the Fe-O chemical bonds to "dissolve" the rust. Even if a fluid makes it through the microcracks to displace the air in those cracks, unless the oxide bonds are broken the fastener will be held by the still-present oxide with the same strength as before so the presence of a lubricant in the microcracks won't do any good. Only after the fastener has moved will the presence of a lubricant do any good. As an aside, molasses does an excellent job "dissolving" iron oxide so other than the fact it, well, flows like molasses it would be a candidate ingredient.

The MSDS of ATF fluids doesn't help to know if additives are present that incidentally reduce iron oxide. Or, if they are present, if they are only in some of the approximately dozen variations of ATF sold for different applications. If an oxide-reducing additive is present in ATF the mixture would work to the extent it penetrates enough of the larger microcracks to "dissolve" enough rust to get things moving. To summarize, this home-made mixture may or may not work better than any commercial penetrating oil as is claimed, but I've certainly seen no evidence that it does.

Which brings us to my personal favorite penetrating oil, Kroil. It is very thin and flows well so it has that essential property that we want in a penetrating fluid. Importantly, it also "dissolves" the rust from a fastener dropped in it so it has that essential property as well. However, I have not done scientific experiments to try to compare its efficacy vs. other penetrating oils so perhaps there's something even better out there. But, I've used Kroil on a wide variety of rusty items for at least 25 years and I'm not looking for anything "better" because it's hard to imagine that, even if there is something better, that it could be much of an improvement over Kroil.

For anyone who is convinced by the above, there are two variations of Kroil: Kroil and SiliKroil ("the oil that creeps, plus silicone"). It might not be clear but AeroKroil isn't a different kind of penetrating oil, just the same stuff packaged in spray cans.

The only reason I can think of not to use the SiliKroil variation (of which I have at least a quart) is silicone contamination causes spray paint to "fisheye' so it could cause extra work if you're breaking fasteners loose in the same area where you do your painting.

#700035 - 06/29/17 4:45 pm Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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gavin eisler Online content
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A wonderful pic, hope its done the trick.

Cant get " Kroil" in the UK ( at least not in rural Scotland) so no experience, I have used " Plus gas" , in the past, dont like the smell.
My favourite used to be "Rustola", cant get it any more , it smelled great", ATF Acetone works for me and I can brew it up in the shed.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#700127 - 06/30/17 6:24 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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Msh5337 Offline
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Nope, no success so far, but I'm going to keep at it. I do plan on doing a complete rebuild on it. So if nothing works I'm going to try to split the cases as is. The cylinder lifts just slightly above the studs so maybe I can make it happen. I'm going to let it soak for a couple more weeks and try the fire alter method a few more times first though. I ended up ordering some Kroil today. Looks like it's pretty good stuff. Thanks again for the help and suggestions everyone. I'll let y'all know when I get this old girl free again.

#700128 - 06/30/17 6:26 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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Msh5337 Offline
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Oh, and Rob, I'm definitely interested in some of those parts. I'll PM you.

#700135 - 06/30/17 8:43 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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Peter R Online content
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Originally Posted by Msh5337
Well Gavin, I took the bait. The fire alter sounded like too much fun to pass up. Though I had to add one more step to your instructions and throw in a six pack.
[Linked Image]
I'll see if we've made any progress tomorrow.


I tried the ATF/acetone method on the rust seized engine of the Benelli, unfortunately it did not work, and I had to revert to more drastic measures. The procuct named " Kroil" is not available where I live, not sure about equivalent products.
btw, do we see another victim of the Photobucket scam here ? This scam seem to mess up this forum pretty badly.


Peter.
1974 Commando 850
1972 Trident T150T
1961 Goldie DBD34
1969 Benelli 250 sport special
#700186 - 06/30/17 3:50 pm Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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LiquidWrench is not available either?
A torch will put more heat into the piston than burning liquids on the surface. You could also heat the cylinder with a torch then spray Freeze-it (electronic cooling spray) on the piston to make a bigger expansion difference.

#700297 - 07/01/17 6:16 am Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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jaycee Online content
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break free with clp worked for me. you can also build a push plate from 1/4 mild steel and bolt it to the block surface and jack it out.pounding is not my idea of a good time.

#700400 - 07/01/17 11:39 pm Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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I haven't read the entire thread but... If you plan on rebuilding this engine then don't even bother to free the pistons. They're soaking right? So there's lubrication there. Take the head off, give the Pistons a light tap using a piece of softwood lumber. Place the wood on the piston/s then give a rap with a hammer. That'll do the trick. I bought a frozen TR6 and it worked a treat for me. By the way, mine were soaking for months and didn't budge.

#701584 - 07/12/17 7:05 pm Re: Bought a locked up BSA A65 [Re: Msh5337]  
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Msh5337 Offline
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Okay, just wanted to give a quick update. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, has worked on this thing. I've tried the fire alter numerous times now have had it soaking in kroil for a couple of weeks. I've pounded, smashed, and pressed the living daylights out of the pistons, but they wont even budge. I know this takes time and patience, but I've about lost all of it. Now, the good news is I picked up a same year model parts bike for $300. The motor is free in this one. So I'm going to use the cylinder off of this one for the one that is stuck. Now my question is how can I cut off the cylinder of the locked up motor without doing damage to the cases? Would I have to take it to a machine shop?

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