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#699576 - 06/25/17 5:43 pm 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo  
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Richard Phillips Online content
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Looking for a photo of the inside and outside of 1964 Lightning Rocket Fender. Also looking for one for sale

Thanks,
Richard

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#699652 - 06/26/17 1:07 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Beach Online content
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Here are some pics of mine I have for my 1965 LR...If you need any more specific pics let me know

Attached Files
20170626_085239.jpg (258 downloads)
20170626_085215.jpg (258 downloads)
20170626_085148.jpg (260 downloads)
20170626_085131.jpg (263 downloads)
20170626_085101.jpg (265 downloads)
20170626_085026.jpg (264 downloads)
20170626_085000.jpg (259 downloads)

Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
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#699755 - 06/27/17 4:54 am Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Best looking fenders....

#699847 - 06/27/17 8:27 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Thanks Bill but that is a 65, 64 is different and does not have valanced fenders

#699862 - 06/27/17 11:10 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Bill,
No thats not right. But thanks.

1964 is different. Not fully vallanced

#699878 - 06/28/17 1:21 am Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Stone Creek OH USA
There were at least 2 (maybe 3) different LR rear fenders. The east coast bikes were largely valanced fenders regardless of year. The west coast bikes typically were a blade type fender (but not always eek ). The west coast blade type fender was also slightly different than the later blade type fender, somewhat more curve to the cross section and slightly wider. The west coast fender is much harder to find than the east coast fender.

Then throw in the home market fenders and Hornet fenders to the mix. It will make your head hurt.

Richard, I have a west coast LR fender on my 65. Let me get a pic and try to get it posted. Unless you have a 66 or later fender to compare it to, tough to tell the difference just looking at it


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#699925 - 06/28/17 4:07 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Great information. I think my 64 LR is an east coast model with a 19 inch rear rim. I do have the fully valanced fender installed so perhaps chasing my tail.

#699927 - 06/28/17 4:20 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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In my opinion, the valanced fender would almost certainly be correct for 64 east coast. And likely large steel side covers with large notches to clear the air cleaners.

Unique looking bikes, IMO.


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#699938 - 06/28/17 5:55 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Rich,
Thanks, yes mine has the large steel side covers. Yes they are unique/good looking and its my opinion BSA began the Lightning range to compete with the Triumph Bonneville.
Also think BSA used a few Goldstar parts in order to get production on the way.

Cant seem to get Photo Bucket to work


Last edited by Richard Phillips; 06/28/17 6:25 pm.
#700724 - 07/04/17 2:27 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Beach]  
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Originally Posted by Beach
The 1964 and 1965 LR have a valanced rear fender and a straight blade front fender...The main difference is steel side covers(1964) fiberglass on 1965...The unvalanced fender was correct starting 1966....I believe this is correct...Wouldn't be the first or last time I've been wrong..



I agree with this statement

#700856 - 07/05/17 5:35 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: C.B.S]  
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Richard Phillips Online content
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I have to disagree: 66 has a valanced rear fender

In my 64 parts book it shows a blade style rear fender. The fender has a unique bracket that fits inside the fender. Also pictures in the Bacon Book show the 64 LR with a blade style rear fender:

I do compete with my Lightning Rocket in various MC shows and have never been dinged for the wrong fully valanced rear fender.

Finally if you look at the 64 Lightning Rocket Clubman it also has a blade rear fender.

#700918 - 07/06/17 12:13 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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The '66 Lightning in the garage still has its original VALANCED rear fender, the '67 Lightning two bikes away from it still has its original BLADE rear fender.

It appears the Lightning Rocket, being the "sportier' version, may have had the smaller, trimmer "blade" rear fender,
as it was an ancestor of the 1966-68 Spitfire.

#700937 - 07/06/17 6:09 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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This is interesting...


This is what I have found:

1966 A65T valanced Fender (There are factory drawings and ad's proving this)
1966 A65L bade fender

1965 A65LR valanced Fender
1965 A65TR valanced Fender


And your sayin 1964 is a blade?

#701024 - 07/07/17 11:51 am Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: C.B.S]  
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Firstly what is shown in the parts books , usually is what WAS suppposed to be fitted, and that depends upon which parts book you are looking at.
Home - Home & General Export - Export - European Export - USA General - USA East - USA West.
Then there were shortcuts where the print shop just changed the part number but not the image, or even worse reprinting the pevious years parts book & adding this year to the title.
No odd to find a 1964 - 1966 parts book to be different to any single year book in the same time span.
Been collecting this stuff all my adult life and I keep finding more stuff that does not fit anywhere.

Then there were the factory publicity photos of what WAS DESIGNED for next year taken using this years models mocked up to look like next year.
Then there were the preseason media motorcycles, altered current models or hand built from experimental parts that may or may not have ever gone into production.
Then there was what actually was made at the factory during the normal production runs
The there was what got cobbled together to make a full export compliment which may or may not be corrected at the warehouse or dealer level.
Then of course you get Hap who apparently was not adverse to making non factory authorised changes to bikes in order to make them more apealing locally.

So you would be a very brave man to state categorically that any bike had any particular part , particularly if there were 1/2 dozen different parts that would bolt right up without modification.
This is the single biggest problem with anything that credits Roy Bacon as the author .
He basically cut & pasted his books from UK press releases , UK catalogues & UK parts books


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#701068 - 07/07/17 11:29 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Frankly Trevor

I think your response is a bit vacant, I am only pursuing photos of a rear mud guard for the 1964 Lightning Rocket range or perhaps a 1964 Lightning Rocket Clubman for historic prevalence. Yes I am a very brave man, my awarded winning restorations for customers and myself, speak for themselves, and you Trevor what do you bring to the table? I find your statements cowardly, open ended and with no substance. Do you have some sort of evidence to which I pursue, or is your agenda egotistical/opinionated which does not factually contribute to this tread

From what I glean by your condescending response either you have some sort of extra scholarly knowledge of BSA History or your just huffing in the wind using your jaundiced opinion without contributing to the threads query .
Basically if you have something relevant to offer, great, otherwise .............

My only goal is to shed light on this unique machine many of us appreciate. After all this was BSA's first attempt to challenge the newly introduce 1963Triumph Bonneville which in itself is significant and worthy of research.

Your expertise on Mr Bacon is profound as well as your knowledge of BSA Factory Parts Books you can shed some relevant information pursuit to this thread. Perhaps you have some sort of real photographic insight you would like to share. Otherwise I see your response as conjecture at best. worst case you are trying to exceed or mimic authority on the subject of Mr Bacon Research and my interest in the 1964 Lightning Rocket rear mud guard or generalizing your perception of documented history.

Its too easy to sit back and be a professed critic. What is difficult is to bring back a time worthy piece for all to appreciate

Judging from your M20 moniker perhaps you should stick with those old military war horses until you developed substantial education on those machines before you critic the topic of the BSA A65 Range.

It would behove you to realize we only have as history are the BSA factory parts books, and the thankful research and publications by Mr. Bacon, God rest his soul Plus the very few original machines that turn up.

Richard

#701070 - 07/08/17 12:11 am Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Beach Online content
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Originally Posted by Richard Phillips
Frankly Trevor

I think your response is a bit vacant, I am only pursuing photos of a rear mud guard for the 1964 Lightning Rocket range or perhaps a 1964 Lightning Rocket Clubman for historic prevalence. Yes I am a very brave man, my awarded winning restorations for customers and myself, speak for themselves, and you Trevor what do you bring to the table? I find your statements cowardly, open ended and with no substance. Do you have some sort of evidence to which I pursue, or is your agenda egotistical/opinionated which does not factually contribute to this tread

From what I glean by your condescending response either you have some sort of extra scholarly knowledge of BSA History or your just huffing in the wind using your jaundiced opinion without contributing to the threads query .
Basically if you have something relevant to offer, great, otherwise .............

My only goal is to shed light on this unique machine many of us appreciate. After all this was BSA's first attempt to challenge the newly introduce 1963Triumph Bonneville which in itself is significant and worthy of research.

Your expertise on Mr Bacon is profound as well as your knowledge of BSA Factory Parts Books you can shed some relevant information pursuit to this thread. Perhaps you have some sort of real photographic insight you would like to share. Otherwise I see your response as conjecture at best. worst case you are trying to exceed or mimic authority on the subject of Mr Bacon Research and my interest in the 1964 Lightning Rocket rear mud guard or generalizing your perception of documented history.

Its too easy to sit back and be a professed critic. What is difficult is to bring back a time worthy piece for all to appreciate

Judging from your M20 moniker perhaps you should stick with those old military war horses until you developed substantial education on those machines before you critic the topic of the BSA A65 Range.

It would behove you to realize we only have as history are the BSA factory parts books, and the thankful research and publications by Mr. Bacon, God rest his soul Plus the very few original machines that turn up.

Richard


This entire thread has been full of condescending tones and inuendos...If you are the expert show us proof of what you say...I honestly regret participating in this thread and will be much more careful in the future..I guess not all of us can be perfect...


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
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#701077 - 07/08/17 2:08 am Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Just trying to strike some sort of middle course here----
Richard is trying his best endeavors to build as accurate a restoration as possible.
I am sure we all applaud and respect him for that objective.
Trevor is just sounding a few words of caution in terms of the validity of historical documentation.
As someone who was involved in the West Midlands UK engineering industry in the 1960s and 1970s and beyond--and who had involvement in the automotive industries including the UK motorcycle industry at that time I have to say that we sometimes pray too hard at the altar of originality.
In those days there were generally no computers--everything was on paper.
Making motorcycles was not a labor of love (as it is for us now) but a hard nosed money making venture.
If some parts were delayed from a supplier then anything close would be fitted to get the product out of the door to get money in to pay the wages next week. For example parts were painted in batches. Batches would not match in color so on a bike you often saw gas tanks and side covers in visibly different shades of color.
I remember mentioning it to one of the managers at one of the leading English manufacturers that the side covers on a particular bike were different shades of supposedly the same color.
"We don't worry about that" he said--"the customer cannot see both sides at the same time"!
So--some of us try for the last inch of originality as we see it--great!
Some of us have slightly less attention to this aspect for the reasons mentioned--that is good too.
An interest in these old bikes should be a wide church.
So lets live and let live and enjoy them in whatever way we each see fit.
Just my two centsworth.

#701118 - 07/08/17 3:54 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Tridentman]  
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Ontario Canada & South Caroli...
Originally Posted by Tridentman
Just trying to strike some sort of middle course here----
Richard is trying his best endeavors to build as accurate a restoration as possible.
I am sure we all applaud and respect him for that objective.
Trevor is just sounding a few words of caution in terms of the validity of historical documentation.
As someone who was involved in the West Midlands UK engineering industry in the 1960s and 1970s and beyond--and who had involvement in the automotive industries including the UK motorcycle industry at that time I have to say that we sometimes pray too hard at the altar of originality.
In those days there were generally no computers--everything was on paper.
Making motorcycles was not a labor of love (as it is for us now) but a hard nosed money making venture.
If some parts were delayed from a supplier then anything close would be fitted to get the product out of the door to get money in to pay the wages next week. For example parts were painted in batches. Batches would not match in color so on a bike you often saw gas tanks and side covers in visibly different shades of color.
I remember mentioning it to one of the managers at one of the leading English manufacturers that the side covers on a particular bike were different shades of supposedly the same color.
"We don't worry about that" he said--"the customer cannot see both sides at the same time"!
So--some of us try for the last inch of originality as we see it--great!
Some of us have slightly less attention to this aspect for the reasons mentioned--that is good too.
An interest in these old bikes should be a wide church.
So lets live and let live and enjoy them in whatever way we each see fit.
Just my two centsworth.



^ Very well said.


Mike
currently 1971 BSA B25SS
#701120 - 07/08/17 4:18 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Richard,
This was not intended as any sort of attack on you personally.
I have viewed the images of your bikes and they are very well done and a credit to you for which you should be justly proud.
The point I was trying to make is with such a large manufacturer as BSA, "original" is a some what ellusive term

To use an example many would be aware of, most early , porley researched publications such as "Gold Stars & Other Unit Singles" for example , tell the reader the entire unit single range for 71 had ivory frames and the factory drawings and the catalogues all confirm this. However only a few pre production publicity production prototypes B50's had ivory frames , the rest left the factory black and the despatch books confirm this.
Similarly with the unit twins.
On this very forum 2 different dealer notices have been posted detailing how West Coast dealers would be recompensed for painting the frames black.
So what is "original " ?
How the bike left the factory or how it left the showrooms ?
I have a 1973 ( titled ) 1971 production year , factory or dealer reworked A65L, it is metallic green with a black frame and was that colour brand spanking new from the dealers here in Sydney as confirmed when I met the original owner.
We have another member with another A65L in exactly the same finish and he also bought his brand new off the BSA dealers showroom floor, prior to the winding up of BSA.
Also brand spanking new off the dealers showroom floor were A 65's in a similar finish painted Blue , Red & White.
All of these bikes had the 1972 cast iron oil pumps and a few other of the 1972 factory modifications.
We have yet to confirm weather these were modified locally or by the factory as one of them sported a German compliance plate.
Over the years I have come across riders from Melbourne & Adelaide with similar bikes and as BSA had different factory franchise agents in each state ( no national agent as in the USA ) as seen in the back pages of BSA parts books.
It would be most unlikely that all 3 states modified the bikes the same way , yes this is an assumption, but the original purchaser of my bike was told it was a "factory refurbishment" which could be true or could be salesman's hype.
These were sold in Australia as 1973 models and all of the lightnings had the Lightning petrol tank decal used as side cover decals.
Are these "original" bikes ?

So while I do respect your quest for geting your bikes "Exactly right", it is a moot point as this thread has already displayed with owners of original bikes fitted with different guards from new as far as they know.

Finally I do not consider myself a BSA expert in way shape or form, just a BSA nut with a reasonable library of original material sourced from all over the world and there is more than one contradiction in them

As a final note, I paid just under $ 1000 for a very rare 12 page 1916 BSA catalogue, resplendent in full colour , included was a letter to the customer with prices & delivery dates .
Now one would assume that this could be taken as primary proof, a factory catalogue, plus a dated and signed factory letter, but not one of the bikes so carefully painted and expensively printed in full colour were ever made as the only motorcycle BSA made in 1916 was the model K in military specifiaction painted drab.
A perfect example of pre production catalogues listing what BSA had planned to make next season, but never eventuated .

And we also have BSA factory Despatch Records, incomplete as they are, full of contradictions as the -Y thread has so carefully brought to light.
At the time of Mr Bacons writing these books were available for him ( or his ghost writers ) to peruse which obviously they did not bother to do.

As to the models in question and in particular to the mudguards, one of the differences that appears in several catalogues between East Coast & West Coast bikes was the rear guards.
It appears that blade type guards were favoured by the West and full valanced guards sold in the East and Canada for that matter.
Export parts Catalogue number 00- 5118 lists 2 different guards for 1965 Lightening Rockets 68-6818 ( East Coast ) and 68-6819 ( West Coast ) which would agree with the statment above.
The 1964 parts book 00-5116 also list both a valanced & blade ( Americarno ) guards for rockets being 68-6526 ( valanced ) and 68-6527 Tipo Americano ( assumed to be blade )
The 1965 All USA ( printed in the UK ) catalogue shows the same , new for 1965 semi-valanced guard on L/R's.
The 1665 BSA factory accessory book lists "Sports type " guards as part of an accessory pack but did not list the guard number or the seat number individually.
The painting in the catalogue ( because BSA had not made the bikes when the catalogue was printed ) shows the guards without the support rail.
The general export 1965 catalogue shows the same as the USA while the home market catalogue makes no mention of the "new for 65" semi-valanced guards and shows all A65's with full valanced guards except the Lightning Clubmans which has a thin blade and that is a photo.

In general the USA printed catalogues have mostly photos while the UK printed ones tend to be mostly paintings so I would tend to put more faith in the USA printed ones.
Al of the adverts I have for 65 show a narrow blade , not the semi valanced guard depicted in the catalogue .
Some of my parts books are out on loan at the moment and others are PDF's , the ones listed above are original hard copies cause it is a tad difficult typing a reply while flipping through a pile of PDF's but if it will add to the confusion I can go through them all and see what other part nubers are listed against them.

Originally Posted by Richard Phillips
Frankly Trevor

I think your response is a bit vacant, I am only pursuing photos of a rear mud guard for the 1964 Lightning Rocket range or perhaps a 1964 Lightning Rocket Clubman for historic prevalence. Yes I am a very brave man, my awarded winning restorations for customers and myself, speak for themselves, and you Trevor what do you bring to the table? I find your statements cowardly, open ended and with no substance. Do you have some sort of evidence to which I pursue, or is your agenda egotistical/opinionated which does not factually contribute to this tread

From what I glean by your condescending response either you have some sort of extra scholarly knowledge of BSA History or your just huffing in the wind using your jaundiced opinion without contributing to the threads query .
Basically if you have something relevant to offer, great, otherwise .............

My only goal is to shed light on this unique machine many of us appreciate. After all this was BSA's first attempt to challenge the newly introduce 1963Triumph Bonneville which in itself is significant and worthy of research.

Your expertise on Mr Bacon is profound as well as your knowledge of BSA Factory Parts Books you can shed some relevant information pursuit to this thread. Perhaps you have some sort of real photographic insight you would like to share. Otherwise I see your response as conjecture at best. worst case you are trying to exceed or mimic authority on the subject of Mr Bacon Research and my interest in the 1964 Lightning Rocket rear mud guard or generalizing your perception of documented history.

Its too easy to sit back and be a professed critic. What is difficult is to bring back a time worthy piece for all to appreciate

Judging from your M20 moniker perhaps you should stick with those old military war horses until you developed substantial education on those machines before you critic the topic of the BSA A65 Range.

It would behove you to realize we only have as history are the BSA factory parts books, and the thankful research and publications by Mr. Bacon, God rest his soul Plus the very few original machines that turn up.

Richard



Last edited by BSA_WM20; 07/08/17 5:42 pm. Reason: added more information

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Trevor
#701122 - 07/08/17 4:51 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: BSA_WM20]  
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With all due respect I apologize to Trevor and all who may have been offended by my ranting
I would still like to pursue my quest in a civil manner
In checking the BSA Spares caltologue no. 5118
On page 63 a blade fender is shown with various part numbers
I think I am interested in mudguard p/n 68-6764. A bracket p/n 68-6770
Too make matters confusing mudguard p/n 68-6765 and 66
Are shown as west coast east coast which varifies Trevor's conclusion
My thoughts on this are the differences lie in the rear wheel size
West 18 " East is 19".
It would be very interesting to find pictures of any of these fenders

Once again I apologize for my degretion
Richard

#701132 - 07/08/17 6:22 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
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Richard,
We all ride BSAs
Thus we all have hides thicker than a bull elephant. And with the thousands of miles mine had been bouncing on that rigid M20 mine is most likely thicker than most.
Thus there is little to no chance of ever offending me. Prove me wrong & I am on cloud 9 because as you know accurate information is what it is all about.
I may have been a little OTT with the previous reply but worth it to show I am not a raving lunatic either.
The AMCA is about to hold their first Australian concours and I asked them about the judging .
Apparently they have definative BSA experts who know exactly what is and is not original, although I did not get a responce when I asked a few specific BSA related questions
So perhaps you might like to ask them when the judges return to the USA .
I missed the two you were looking at so that is now 6 different guards.
Only a guess but imagine 18 & 19 were the new semi- valanced guards probably in different wheel sizes
and the two you are looking at would have been the original 64 guards,
Ain't this fun.
Way way way back I was looking at amalgamating all of the A50/65 parts books into a single edition .
Seemed like such a good idea at the time.
After 3 or 4 years of putting parts numbers into a massive table ( pre computer spread sheets ) I gave up


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#701146 - 07/08/17 9:35 pm Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: BSA_WM20]  
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 776
San Luis Obispo, CA
Thanks Trevor
Perhaps too much information makes it baffling
Yes it is fun I do enjoy the challenge
The AMCA may be helpful
My 66 Thunderbolt is an east coast model valance fender
and 19". The west cost model is noted as 18" rear wheels go figure

Other oddities in my care is 1961 Econoline pick up
with an Aussie cross flow cylinder head on a 250 victory
straight six. They came in your Ford Falcons in the seventies


I was in Sydney on RR escaping the wrath of Charlie in 1969
Best regards good luck on you pursuits

Richard

#701181 - 07/09/17 7:44 am Re: 1964 A65 LR Rear Fender Photo [Re: Richard Phillips]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,477
BSA_WM20 Online content
BritBike Forum member
BSA_WM20  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,477
Sydney Australia
Getting right off topic there are a lot more Aussie made parts on USA made cars than many would imagine.
For decades we had the cheapest electricity in the world and the cheapest aluminium.
When GM-H moved from Melbourne to Adelaide they built a massive foundry and from that day on nearly all alloy GM parts worldwide were cast down here.
And as it is a lot cheaper to ship loose parts, we assembled most of the alloy block engines used in Eurpoean GM vehicles.
For the same reason, Ford also sourced a lot of alloy parts from here.
As part of the "working Amercia " plan of the previous government , GM got a massive "loan" from the government to build a state of the art foundry in Mitichigan sort of a reward for not doing a chapter 11 and screwing all of their suppliers like Ford did so as of November last year they are now being made locally.
Hope the locals looked after you well on your R&R , seems lilk you survived it.

Guards are a big problem because there were too many "wrong" one that bolt right in and the early closed loop frames seemed to eat any guard than did not the really deep valance to protect it from the vibrations
My days of A65's are virtually over, the reflexes were only marginally above comatose when young & fit and funny enough have not gotten many better over time, so old & slow looks like my lot in life.

Hope you do get it sorted.
I am looking forward to archiving your findings so we will all know cause that is why most of us are here.


Bike Beesa
Trevor

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