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#698966 - 06/18/17 11:32 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
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fefsa

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ohio, usa
damn

i just priced bandsaws from harbor freight, and a light-duty one isn't as expensive as i thought.

maybe i should consider making pipes for the trident, since nobody does a three-into-one anymore for them.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#698995 - 06/19/17 6:40 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Posts: 4,578
Allan Gill Online happy
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
We used to use a big chop saw, big circular disk, that made lightnwork and nice edges, when I made mine I used an angle grinder, used tape as a marker then drew a line next to the tape. Remove the tape and that was my cutting line.

A 1mm (.040") gap is sufficient between the joint to weld between, ideally the thickness of the wire, most wires are 0.8mm, and if you get a bigger gap, instead of welding across it, weld into the corner of the previous weld and one of the pipe ends, then do the same on the other side, and keep working inwards. If the gap is too big, I used to start from the other side and work back towards it, then the larger hole fills up better.

I used 1.5mm thick pipe when I made my exhaust, if yours is thinner then I can see how it is so hard to not burn through.


beerchug
#699006 - 06/19/17 9:06 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Mark Parker Offline
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Bega NSW Australia
When I make engine/header pipes that go under the motor I get pipes bent and use only two sections for each, joined between the bends. I get the local exhaust guy to bend sections from stainless pipe to a curve I can make from wire. The curve is more gradual than what you have at the top bend. It's not possible to get a full sweeping pipe from his bender, but I can adjust that weld joint between the bends by angle cutting slightly and aiming the pipe exactly where I want it to go. Which may work better making a 3into1.

If your Trident is a T150 using the stock frame, the headers will fit best with the center pipe going to the left of the frame tube. With all headers aimed a bit to the left and angling back to the right under the motor. I used 1-1/2" tube into a triangular arranged collector with a fairly big tail pipe and muffler.


mark
#699008 - 06/19/17 10:30 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
You don't need a band saw....I have this exact pipe cutter and it cuts quick and clean on 16-18 gauge pipe...It leaves a slightly rolled in edge that's easiley reamed with a files or burr in cordless drill...
.
[Linked Image]
Your radius are tighter than what's usually seen on a Brit bike but not tighter than seen on some engines make far more power per cubic inch...Only a back to back test would confirm any difference..
I join the pipes before the bend and try to not make another joint closer than 12 inches after the bend...

I made the pipes on the Triumph ,what you call the "the fastest 650 unit production based Triumph in the country" grin You can see heat staining where the pipes join..Nothing fancy....Bottom radius looks about the same as yours..

[Linked Image]

The pipes I made for the double sweep back because they are on the sides of the frame..

[Linked Image]

Grind the weld bead on your pipes,if it looks weak re weld...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#699059 - 06/19/17 8:14 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Hillbilly bike]  
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Andy Higham Online content
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Andy Higham  Online Content
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Bolton Lancs UK
I guess you have used MIG to weld the pipes. Only stick is less appropriate, gas or TIG will give much better results and if you use TIG and use backing gas, the inside will be pretty too


1955 BSA B31 400cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350cc
1967 Greeves 360cc Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc grasstrack
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
#699078 - 06/19/17 11:08 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content

fefsa

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,412
ohio, usa
all good suggestions. i'm using this little wire welder with CO2/argon gas:

[Linked Image]

i do have an ancient lincoln stick welder, but at the moment the pipes made with the wire unit seem to be okay. the welds are blobby, but the penetration is good on the ones i've dissected. mostly the issue seems to be aesthetic. i'll experiment with other stuff after this july meet. i've already learned enough about the pipes that there are some things i want to do differently.

i'm stuck with tight 2.5-inch radius bends, because cone engineering doesn't do multiple radii in a given pipe size. the actual angles of the tubes are the same as stock: upper bend is 75 degrees, lower bend is 98. but the transitions are sharper because of the small radius. on the stock pipes, the upper radius is about 3 inches, and the lower one is about 4. (i know because i trial-fit various cans and so forth until i found things that fit).

i'm using the 1-5/8-inch pipe diameter reccommended by leo goff, and that causes some difficulties, because i can't just modify pipes i can buy. the standard triumph stuff is always either 1.5 or 1.75. i may end up ditching the intermediates simply because i can't get a sweeping bend with tubes in that diameter. what i've seen from american muffler shops is that they make bends by crushing the pipe on the inside curve, and i'm looking for mandrel-bent tubing.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 06/19/17 11:09 pm.

Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#699097 - 06/20/17 2:26 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Jerry Roy Online content
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Denver CO

#699132 - 06/20/17 12:26 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Hillbilly bike  Online Content
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Running from demons in WNY
Kevin, Summit Racing has more than a few 1-5/8 mandrel bends in radius greater than 2-1/2 inch.. Just search their online catalog for exhaust tubing ,then go to 1-5/8 and then to mandel bends...They have very fast delivery and a huge warehouse in Ohio.....
But...maybe just run what you have at this point in time?


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#699152 - 06/20/17 5:14 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Blown Income Offline
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Posts: 718
Edgewater, Md
Kevin,

The exhaust doesnt look too bad for using a 120v MIG Welder. I recently just finished up my new stepped pipes with s.s material from Cone. I agree their radius are a little on the tight side but at least you are not limited on space like I am with a fairing.

[Linked Image]


1955 BSA Bantam D1 Plunger
1956 BSA A10RR Street and LSR Bike
1961 BSA C15S
1966 BSA spitfire
1969 Triumph T100C
1970 Triumph TR6R
1972 BSA Lightning LSR Bike
1974 Triumph T150V
#699154 - 06/20/17 5:33 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Posts: 3,545
DMadigan Online content
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DMadigan  Online Content
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ca, us
Woolfaircraft.com has 1-5/8" tubes in 1-5/8" to 8" centreline radius. I made this with their tube and Cone's mufflers.
[Linked Image]
A set of saddle clamps hold the tubes and allow access all around the tube for welding.
[Linked Image]

#699157 - 06/20/17 5:41 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Sep 2008
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Blown Income Offline
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Edgewater, Md
^^^That looks Nice^^^ I like the alignment tool also.


1955 BSA Bantam D1 Plunger
1956 BSA A10RR Street and LSR Bike
1961 BSA C15S
1966 BSA spitfire
1969 Triumph T100C
1970 Triumph TR6R
1972 BSA Lightning LSR Bike
1974 Triumph T150V
#699189 - 06/20/17 8:50 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: DMadigan]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Hillbilly bike  Online Content
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Running from demons in WNY
[quote=DMadigan]Woolfaircraft.com has 1-5/8" tubes in 1-5/8" to 8" centreline radius. I made this with their tube and Cone's mufflers.
[Linked Image]
A set of saddle clamps hold the tubes and allow access all around the tube for welding.
[Linked Image][/quote

Looks like a 20 inch primary and about 16 collector/megaphone...I had a guy with a Pipemax exhaust design program come up with something very similar for my Triumph 650 LSR bike...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#699193 - 06/20/17 10:05 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Allan Gill Online happy
Allan Gill  Online Happy


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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
I'm not sure why the big ooh ahh is for mandril bends on none tight corners. I used to make exhaust under the powerflow name, powerflow were the only ones who didn't use mandril bends (unless the bend was sharp) on book their brand exhausts were the best performing on the market.

The inside of the bend is dead space, think of a river and how it meanders, the outer bend is deeper as the river cuts into the side, it flows faster, the inner bend fills with silt because that is where the flow is slower, same principle here.

For my clubmans style copy pipe 2-1, I sent the short section off to a pipe bending company and asked them to make me two copies, just longer than my example. Not mandril bends but run very well.


beerchug
#699234 - 06/21/17 3:30 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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DMadigan Online content
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DMadigan  Online Content
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ca, us
That bike was a special for Dan Macias' son-in-law. Dan had an 800cc cheater motor and Shell frame sitting around for years that he was always going to finish for himself but never got around to. Mike wanted it to look like the flat trackers of the day but still rideable on the street which is the reason for the modifications.
Sure, modern exhausts are better but so is everything else compared to these old bikes.

#699253 - 06/21/17 10:33 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Hillbilly bike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2012
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
I'm not sure why the big ooh ahh is for mandril bends on none tight corners. I used to make exhaust under the powerflow name, powerflow were the only ones who didn't use mandril bends (unless the bend was sharp) on book their brand exhausts were the best performing on the market.

The inside of the bend is dead space, think of a river and how it meanders, the outer bend is deeper as the river cuts into the side, it flows faster, the inner bend fills with silt because that is where the flow is slower, same principle here.

For my clubmans style copy pipe 2-1, I sent the short section off to a pipe bending company and asked them to make me two copies, just longer than my example. Not mandril bends but run very well.


I have never seen anything but mandrel bent exhaust on successful racing vehicles.If your statement was universally true, tuners looking for any advantage would not use mandrel bends.. And to be honest,mandrel bends just look better...That's why I'm suggesting grinding the welds for a smoother appearance where the exhaust is in plain sight..


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#699258 - 06/21/17 11:55 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Mark Parker Offline
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Mark Parker  Offline
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Bega NSW Australia
Dave's pipes look lovely. Practicality for me is non mandrel bends, does one type lose HP I don't know. Size and configuration I would think have more significance. Some race pipes are sometimes flattened or shaped up near the port to combat reversion. I would have thought a bit of reversion caused by big pipes would be livable with LSR bikes if they give more top end bias. I guess it depends what the engine's breathing will support.

I'm interested to know if 2 into 1s can be configured to give more top end than two single pipes? What have people found?

Triples seem best with 3 into1s.

With twins I remember Troy Corser racing an Aprilia twin in superbikes and it wasn't competitive till they replaced a 2into1 with a twin system. The twin system was connected though. Why I think an 'X' connector twin system would be advantageous.


mark
#699264 - 06/21/17 12:39 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Mark Parker]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Hillbilly bike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by Mark Parker
Dave's pipes look lovely. Practicality for me is non mandrel bends, does one type lose HP I don't know. Size and configuration I would think have more significance. Some race pipes are sometimes flattened or shaped up near the port to combat reversion. I would have thought a bit of reversion caused by big pipes would be livable with LSR bikes if they give more top end bias. I guess it depends what the engine's breathing will support.

I'm interested to know if 2 into 1s can be configured to give more top end than two single pipes? What have people found?

Triples seem best with 3 into1s.

With twins I remember Troy Corser racing an Aprilia twin in superbikes and it wasn't competitive till they replaced a 2into1 with a twin system. The twin system was connected though. Why I think an 'X' connector twin system would be advantageous.



360 degree Brit LSR bikes have a variety of exhaust styles..But it appears that 1-1/2 -1-5/8 diameter individual pipes with or without megaphones is the most popular on the fastest bikes...
I tried a two into one on my 650 LSR Triumph....I fabricated it to the Pipemax computer design...1-1/2 x 19 inch primaries into a 2-1/2 x 17 inch collector....On the Superflow dyno it made slight more midrange but a bit less on top end than the individual 1-1/2 x 38 inch straight pipes...I didn't have the resources to carry on more testing on the two into one....I believe a lot of the benefits are lost to the 360 degree firing order...
1-3/4 pipes for a cylinder making less than 40 HP is larger than auto tuners use on engines making a lot more power...I don't know if it's a fair comparison however..Generally, most exhaust "experts" claim a larger than necessary diameter pipe will add about 1% on top end for a loss of 10% in the midrange.. Of course some engines are more tolerant of pipe size than others

X pipes for auto tuning are used primarily on V8 engines to improve lower speed power. on vehicles with full exhaust systems..In drag racing that's all about top end and they use anything to gain an advantage, X pipes aren't used on collector type headers...
My 96 Ducati 900 daily rider makes about 68 HP at the rear wheel and the stock exhaust has 42 MM head pies with an X pipe. I believe the X pipe is to increase mid range and offer better flow with "restrictive" stock mufflers......Ducati racing exhausts use a modifed X pipe ..Seems to be what's used on most V twin racers...




650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#699283 - 06/21/17 6:58 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Hillbilly bike]  
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,578
Allan Gill Online happy
Allan Gill  Online Happy


Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,578
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
I'm not sure why the big ooh ahh is for mandril bends on none tight corners. I used to make exhaust under the powerflow name, powerflow were the only ones who didn't use mandril bends (unless the bend was sharp) on book their brand exhausts were the best performing on the market.

The inside of the bend is dead space, think of a river and how it meanders, the outer bend is deeper as the river cuts into the side, it flows faster, the inner bend fills with silt because that is where the flow is slower, same principle here.

For my clubmans style copy pipe 2-1, I sent the short section off to a pipe bending company and asked them to make me two copies, just longer than my example. Not mandril bends but run very well.


I have never seen anything but mandrel bent exhaust on successful racing vehicles.If your statement was universally true, tuners looking for any advantage would not use mandrel bends.. And to be honest,mandrel bends just look better...That's why I'm suggesting grinding the welds for a smoother appearance where the exhaust is in plain sight..



Have you ever seen a bike not using mandrel bends? Your right that mandrel bends look better but it doesn't mean it performs any better, a lot of the time things are done because no one ever challenges what's happened before. All I'm saying is what I know from when I made pipes in my last job. The effect with the air flow is identical to that with the inlet.

I can't remember the website now, but when I started doing my headwork Mark P directed me to a website giving the how it's done, he also did some work on exhaust ports too, the bearing on that matter would be similar... if mark still knows the link?


beerchug
#699310 - 06/22/17 12:20 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Hillbilly bike  Online Content
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by Allan Gill



Have you ever seen a bike not using mandrel bends? Your right that mandrel bends look better but it doesn't mean it performs any better, a lot of the time things are done because no one ever challenges what's happened before. All I'm saying is what I know from when I made pipes in my last job. The effect with the air flow is identical to that with the inlet.

I can't remember the website now, but when I started doing my headwork Mark P directed me to a website giving the how it's done, he also did some work on exhaust ports too, the bearing on that matter would be similar... if mark still knows the link?


You may find this of interest, some drama but worth the 14 minutes......Just smash the headers to make more power............

Header bashing



650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#699472 - 06/24/17 1:21 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Dec 2013
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kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content

fefsa

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,412
ohio, usa
no more time for the pipes . . . i'm going to run what i brung, and any changes will be in version 2.

tach issues. my pretty eurotrash veglia-replica speedo won't fit down in front of the triple clamps without a longer cable. can't do a longer cable ASAP because it needs to be italian on top and british on the bottom. but Steadfast to the rescue! he sells a 37-inch cable to go to a T140 speedo, and both are on the way. if they don't get here, i can steal the late instrument bracket from my long-suffering T120 and mount the repro veglia on it, up on the triple tree. won't be able to see it during a run, but that's life.

my firesleeve from pegasus is too tight to let the fuel flow through the lines. i bought 11/16-inch to cover 5/16-inch fuel injection hose, but it won't bend without kinking--should have bought 1-inch. i won't spend more money at $0.88 per inch just to look good, so i'll save that nicety for next time as well.

dyno scheduled for thursday next. will be cranking it up on first day, day after tomorrow, if the pipe brackets arrive on time. or even if they don't.

time enough to finish, not so if something goes wrong.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#699492 - 06/24/17 12:11 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,186
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Hillbilly bike  Online Content
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Posts: 3,186
Running from demons in WNY
With the Rob Hall head and the cams, your engine should be good for 55 RWHP (depending on the dyno) and that should be good for near 130 MPH with the right gearing and if you can coax your old body into an effective tuck...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#699493 - 06/24/17 12:56 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,412
kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content

fefsa

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,412
ohio, usa
with the low tanks i can jam my head down and look out from under the top triple clamp. i'm stretching so i don't go into rigor mortis at the half-mile mark.

i'm coming with 18, 19, 20, 21, 43, and 46-tooth sprocketing. i should find something in there with several days to look.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#699509 - 06/24/17 4:52 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,186
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
I used 4.47 overall gearing with a 27.5 inch tall rear tire to run 128 plus MPH at Loring...About 7050 RPM.... , more or less the peak power on the dynamometer...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#699536 - 06/25/17 1:28 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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koncretekid Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
At Loring, no firesleeve required except on un-valved portions of fuel line such as crossovers, if that helps. Instruments must be mounted no lower than 2" below top of upper triple clamps in M class.

Good luck with the Dyno runs. Get the Air Fuel ratio at wide open throttle correct first, then play with the timing to get maximum hp. Gear for maximum hp rpm at the lights.

Tom


Life's uncertain - go fast now!
#699579 - 06/25/17 6:11 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Mark Parker]  
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kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content

fefsa

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Posts: 3,412
ohio, usa
Originally Posted by Mark Parker


I'm interested to know if 2 into 1s can be configured to give more top end than two single pipes? What have people found?

Triples seem best with 3 into1s.

With twins I remember Troy Corser racing an Aprilia twin in superbikes and it wasn't competitive till they replaced a 2into1 with a twin system. The twin system was connected though. Why I think an 'X' connector twin system would be advantageous.


i'd like to find an answer to this as well. to me, the big thing about separate pipes is that they're simply easier for me to think about. you can disconnect each cylinder's positive and negative pressure pulses from each other, and not try to also understand the interactions. with a 2-into-1, you have to consider the pulses from the right side that affect the cylinder filling on the other side . . . even so, car people deal with this routinely, as do tuners of most machines with more than two cylinders.

rob hall uses a 2-into-1 on some of his machines, he says. and last september, a nice fellow from australia ran a 650cc triumph to 116 with a 2-into-1 leading to a short collector right under the motor.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
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