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#698518 - 06/15/17 2:56 am Resleeve or not  
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htown Online content
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I took my cylinder barrel to a reputable shop to have it bored. They informed me the cylinder liners were flush with the top of the block and I should have it resleeved or risk head gasket leak. They said the liners should protrude .005. The engine had a new copper head gasket on it before I tore it down and had 140 psi compression. The engine is a bit of a bitsa with some 69 and 74 parts. The barrel may be a 69. Seems like a lot of work to have them resleeved just for the protrusion bit as otherwise the bores are in good shape and should clean up with a +20 overbore and hone.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
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#698535 - 06/15/17 8:39 am Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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tridentt150v Offline
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Great Southern Land
Replied on RAT

#698566 - 06/15/17 2:01 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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bodine031 Online content
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I would anneal the copper H/G, spray with copper coat and do 3 retorque & valve adjustments all cold. Fire ck for leaks sit overnite retorque then ride 5 miles ck for leaks again sit over nite retorque and adj.valves and then once more after 25 miles. WARNING studs are known too pull out of the block be surgical on the torque procedure. Piece of mind you have in Austin Tom Gunn 512-534-5326 one of the top triple gurus in the USA or get on Triple Tec and ring up Jerry or Charlie. FWIW I have 3 Tridents for over 30 yrs. 2 T-160's & 1 T-150 all have copper H/G's the 3 torque deal is a pain but easier than R&R'ing the head again. Your bike your time good luck

#698571 - 06/15/17 3:23 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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John Healy Offline
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Boston, Massachusetts
Quote
I took my cylinder barrel to a reputable shop to have it bored. They informed me the cylinder liners were flush with the top of the block and I should have it resleeved or risk head gasket leak.


Your "reputable shop" was not "blowing smoke up your nose!" The specification is for the top of the sleeve to sit above the cylinder casting for several reasons.

The chances are good, if he didn't advise you of this and you found out later that it should, you wouldn't be happy with him. It is easy for someone on the internet to say, "Suck it and see," and you are perfectly free to take that advice. But you wouldn't expect a "reputable shop" to fail to bring this to your attention, or even refuse to do the job.


#698575 - 06/15/17 4:21 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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DMadigan Online content
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ca, us
You could take it to a CNC shop and they could skim the cylinder with the sleeves in place.
When replacing sleeves I use thermal grease on the top quarter to improve heat transfer.

#698589 - 06/15/17 6:32 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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edunham Offline
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Ewing. NJ
Is there any way to press the existing sleeves up without warping the bore? And, if so, insuring they don't drift back down again?

Ed from NJ

#698644 - 06/16/17 4:16 am Re: Resleeve or not [Re: John Healy]  
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tridentt150v Offline
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Great Southern Land
Originally Posted by John Healy
Quote
I took my cylinder barrel to a reputable shop to have it bored. They informed me the cylinder liners were flush with the top of the block and I should have it resleeved or risk head gasket leak.


Your "reputable shop" was not "blowing smoke up your nose!" The specification is for the top of the sleeve to sit above the cylinder casting for several reasons.

The chances are good, if he didn't advise you of this and you found out later that it should, you wouldn't be happy with him. It is easy for someone on the internet to say, "Suck it and see," and you are perfectly free to take that advice. But you wouldn't expect a "reputable shop" to fail to bring this to your attention, or even refuse to do the job.


That was me....I think its worth a try before he goes to the expense of resleeving. I agree a good machine shop should tell you of these things, but then it is up to you as the owner to decide if you should first try the less costly option. I didn't in any way with my other post say otherwise.

As bodine says, its pretty much his bike, his time.

#698681 - 06/16/17 1:23 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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John Healy Offline
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OK me, what part of "you are perfectly free to take that advice" don't you understand?

I was making the point that the person who was giving him this advice wasn't trying to take advantage of him!!!! It was sound advice. I understand that a lot of people don't have the means. Whether he chooses to take the advice is another story. Last time I checked most shops have a door that works both ways.

It is refreshing to hear about a shop who actually knows the subtle "ins and outs" of the Triple. So many who advise, and undertake these jobs, don't.

Most of the triples made were first sold in the US, but you will find that most of them were exported to Britain, Europe, New Zealand and Australia. Of the few that stayed here, a lot of them suffered catastrophic engine failure. A lot of them were broken for parts when dealers couldn't cure constant clutch failure due to inaccuracies in machining the gearbox and inner primary cover, primary chain failure where it was not aligned properly and took out the primary covers, crankcase and crankshaft.

It says a lot when I can recommend US Vincent customers to more qualified mechanics for work than I can for Trident/A75 owners. With a few exception US dealers did not embrace the triples. They lacked the interest, equipment, knowledge, spare parts, and training to service the model. These bikes became a popular export because of lack of support to places where there are people are interested in these bikes and still have the skills to work on them. We have become a nation where if the problem doesn't show up as a code on a laptop your screwed. If you are lucky the shop has an old retired guy working part time in the parts room who is a real old time mechanic.


#698700 - 06/16/17 4:45 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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John Healy Offline
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It appears that hillbily deleted his post I am responding to, but here is a synopsis of what he was saying:
Quote
True....But in reality a Vincent is many times more expensive and rare than a Trident/A75 so the owners are more likely to spend money ???

In England, where there are numerous really qualified shops and mechanics, they are highly valued. People spend all sorts of "stupid" money on them. I see the triples popularity in the UK, and other places, in that people can get qualified service and real value for the money they spend.

I don't see it as a monetary thing, but the ability for an enthusiast to get back something for the money spent. Too many people over here have spent "boat loads" of money on their Trident-A75 and get little, if anything, of value for it. As far as rarity, yes in the number produced, but I think there are many more Vincents being used, than triples in the USA.

I think this sport would be much more popular if customers could actually use the bike. Instead I constantly see a race to the bottom. If I heard it once, I have heard it a hundred times, "Don't worry, he will never ride it!"



#698763 - 06/17/17 1:45 am Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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htown Online content
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Well the shop in question is located in Dallas and begins with Big and ends in "D".


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
#698776 - 06/17/17 5:07 am Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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Great Southern Land
Actually I think the advice you got on Triples Online was probably the best:
http://www.triplesonline.com/forum/getmsg.asp?198161
try to hunt down one of the recommended Cometic gaskets.

Last edited by tridentt150v; 06/17/17 5:10 am.
#698793 - 06/17/17 12:19 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: John Healy]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by John Healy
It appears that hillbily deleted his post I am responding to, but here is a synopsis of what he was saying:
Quote
True....But in reality a Vincent is many times more expensive and rare than a Trident/A75 so the owners are more likely to spend money ???

In England, where there are numerous really qualified shops and mechanics, they are highly valued. People spend all sorts of "stupid" money on them. I see the triples popularity in the UK, and other places, in that people can get qualified service and real value for the money they spend.

I don't see it as a monetary thing, but the ability for an enthusiast to get back something for the money spent. Too many people over here have spent "boat loads" of money on their Trident-A75 and get little, if anything, of value for it. As far as rarity, yes in the number produced, but I think there are many more Vincents being used, than triples in the USA.

I think this sport would be much more popular if customers could actually use the bike. Instead I constantly see a race to the bottom. If I heard it once, I have heard it a hundred times, "Don't worry, he will never ride it!"



Sorry about the delete..I had second thoughts but...I do understand your point of view about owners blowing money on Triples and getting nothing back This also occurs with other vintage vehicles....I bought a well used 73 Trident in 1980.... I managed to rebuild the engine using hobbyist skills and the cylinders bored by a local machine shop.The engine ran well, dripped no oil and survived some drag racing...And the clutch never had a clean release. wink. I even hand "machined" the intake guides and fitted seals from a Isuzu car engine.. At that point in time I don't know what a Vincent cost, but it had to be more costly than the $900 well used Trident....
In 45 years of riding , I've never seen a Vincent on the road or anywhere other than maybe once at a show...It may be just the area I live in ????
John, you are a Vincent enthusiast and do engine work on them for customers...So you have an "in" with the guys riding them...
I would love to have a Vincent, but the price is totally unreasonable to me ...............I'll just continue riding the 96 900 M Ducati and pretend it's a Vincent of Brough Superior... grin


Naked frame LSR bikes, dressed in animal hides clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire
#698794 - 06/17/17 12:33 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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ohio, usa
you should be having second thoughts about your buell.

that machine is an excellent motorcycle.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#698796 - 06/17/17 12:56 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
you should be having second thoughts about your buell.

that machine is an excellent motorcycle.


Hey buddy, I wanted you to have the experience of a more modern high performance bike that still has plenty of character....And the Ducati is a fine machine for me... bigt

Do you still enjoy riding your Trident?


Naked frame LSR bikes, dressed in animal hides clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire
#698821 - 06/17/17 4:44 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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John Healy Offline
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Boston, Massachusetts
Quote
Actually I think the advice you got on Triples Online was probably the best:
http://www.triplesonline.com/forum/getmsg.asp?198161
try to hunt down one of the recommended Cometic gaskets.


Triple you will notice as these bikes age strange things start to happen. What once was a press fit over times becomes a slip fit. This happens with main bearing housings on many bikes. We are seeing more and more 1970 Triumph 650's where the timing side bearing has become a slip fit into the case. We saw it early with Triumph 250's where the sleeve would turn in the cylinder muff. We see it all the time with Vincents where the original .006" interference fit has gathered 2 or 3 thousandths clearance. As I said above the sleeves sitting above the gasket surface serves more than sealing the head gasket. Just how did those triple sleeves migrate down 5 or more thousandths. It wasn't magic.

I have a set of Richard Pecket/Phil Pick Triple cylinder presently in the shop. Not only does the sleeve have the .005" + step it also has the only brilliant thing about Norman Hyde's triple cylinders: a stepped sleeve allowing the top of the sleeve to extend up through the head gasket. Unlike the Hyde set-up where the top of the sleeve was a bit above the head gasket allowing the head to seal and capture the sleeve, the Pecket/Pick cylinders the sleeve sits a few thousandths below the top of the gasket. It is too bad Phil got hurt which it made his Seasonal Affective Disorder (aka Winter Depression) much, much more worse. It was a great loss to the T150 community. He was a brilliant mind when it came to understanding and modifying triples.

Few people over here are going to spend the money one has to "pony up" to get a bike kitted out with all of the Pecket/Pick triple innovations. And with a lot of this stuff one doesn't always get all of the story behind why, and what else is being done, for magic to happen. To start with they are not typically running stock cyinders...

HB if you knew how many Vincents I passed over in the 1960's for real short money. Black Shadows in running order for $500.00. The parts situation was so bad that people just didn't want them. Today, you can get anything you want for a Vincent. Anything! Once we put on a Alton generator and a new BTH magneto on my lawyer's Vincent he sold his Harley and uses the Vincent for a daily rider.


#698822 - 06/17/17 5:12 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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Anyone have a part no. for the Cometic gasket for triples? I can't find it on their website.. (yeah it's a personal problem)
regards

#698826 - 06/17/17 5:29 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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John Healy Offline
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http://www.cometic.com/p-35446-custom-gaskets.html

There are a lot of gaskets they make that are "specials." They make Vincent gaskets that are not listed in their catalog.

Richard Peckett
Telephone: from US 011 44 208 847 1711

http://www.triples.co.uk/

then click on "Product Documents"
then The P&M/triple cycles strong cylinders.

For those don't have the time to go to Phil Pick's web site:
" The P&M / Triple Cycles cylinders were next along. Although Richard and I had discussed them over a few years, and made one (later aborted) production order with a machinist for billet items, it took a while to produce the casting pattern and make the first production. We had decided to keep tightly to the rules of the Classic Racing Motorcycle Club that stated that engine exterior appearance must not change, so ours are cast with standard fining and features. However clever design changes (they could be called 20/20 cylinders, no changes visible from 20 feet or 20 miles per hour) result in a MUCH stronger cylinder. A high spec alloy is used to make them and clever pressure treatments and heat treatments are used in manufacture. We produce them in many forms at '750', '850', '930' (using a 77mm stroke and shorter connecting rods so that the engine exterior appearance does not change) and '990' (using the same short rod and an 82mm stroke) versions."

They look stock, but they are not! the "Strong Cylinders" is not just a boast.



#698828 - 06/17/17 6:05 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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htown Online content
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htown  Online Content
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Magnolia, TX
t150v,
I have decided the advice that was on Triplesonline. I called Charlie Barnes the other day and ordered the Cometic gasket. He can supply them. His contact number is 562-221-2584. I'm having the top of the cylinders decked first. Charlie said he and others have built a number of engines this way including some racing engines with the liners decked flush with top of the block and the Cometic gasket and never had a head gasket failure. For the cost I feel it is worth a shot.
Htown


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
#698872 - 06/18/17 4:46 am Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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tridentt150v Offline
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Great Southern Land
Good call Htown, as I said the 0.005" really only serves two purposes IME, 1. It forms a tight seal or firing ring around the combustion chamber...and 2. It is insurance against the sleeves moving in the barrels due to friction and heat.

I think that a properly sorted modern head gasket can address both these issues without the 0.005" section being present.

And, I agree with the thoughts that the Triple was/is not as popular Stateside.

Talking broad brush strokes here:

The USA has always been more twin centric IMO and as stated the early Trident/R3 versions with their boxy ugly looks killed the launch. That they 'fixed' this with cosmetic packages didn't help...it was too late the damage had been done. It was also always a motorcycle that didn't do anything that the 750 twins couldn't do [given that each had their strengths and weaknesses], it just wasn't different enough.
The only advantage a triple has over the twins is their ability to [with quite a few $$$$ injected] go to 900 or 1,000cc. And with the modern enhancements from NH, Triples Rule , Triple Cyces, Les, Phil, Richard and others the Triple has finally broken away to be just different enough to be desirable. They are now able to be the capacity they always should have been from 1968 IMO, albeit at a cost.

The other side of this is the better quality in bearings, gaskets, parts........these also play their part in making the triples [and indeed many classics] the bikes we always wanted but struggled to always have.





Last edited by tridentt150v; 06/18/17 9:08 am.
#698899 - 06/18/17 12:12 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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bodine031 Online content
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melbourne florida
Keep in mind by skimming the cyl/block and the MLS gasket your rocker box gasket and pushrod tube seals thickness may need to be adjusted to get the oil from seeping out. Don't rush it so you can get squared away in 1 shot. good luck

#698902 - 06/18/17 12:18 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: tridentt150v]  
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RPM Online content
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Dallas Texas
I do prefer the liners to protrude up from the cylinders. It has been my experience that when liners protrude up oil from the drain dowels does not leak to the outside of the motor or to the inside of the motor to the combustion chamber causing blue smoke. Sealing of the area around the bores is not the only purpose of the head gasket.
I have done it both ways and my experience tells me that protruding liners work better. How you fix your bike is up to you.
When I was younger I was so much smarter than the Triumph engineers but some how over the years the Triumph engineers got better at what they did.
I love triples.

Last edited by RPM; 06/18/17 12:19 pm.
#698906 - 06/18/17 1:00 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: tridentt150v]  
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bodine031 Online content
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melbourne florida
The late 60's through the late 70's in the US was weird for motorbikes. Brit bike warranty issues, Honda, BMW R-90s Café/sport touring styling. Had the T-160 showed up 1st sales of Triples might have been better. BSA was about bankrupt, Their last grasp was the speed endurance Daytona run and a ton of money spent on road racing here and Europe. JO-MO & TRI-COR beating their heads against the wall trying to get the BSA/Tri honchos to give dealers what the wanted. Then WHAM!! Z-1, XS, GS, CB, inline 4's, electric foot, disc brakes at both ends, fast. Then the late 70's-80's cruz'r style and Goldwings and barcalounger touring bikes brought us to where we are today. 900lb. 2 wheel barcaloungers, semi knobbies on 9 foot tall 600lb ADV's, 200 HP rocket launchers & sport tours, Florida snowmobiles, And a bizzalion brands and sizes of cruzr's
It's quite the industry now and caters to all the age markets. I'm 64 started on a Suz T-20 moved to a Tri-twin POS just bought the wrong one! Then bought a T-160 that I still have. A used Z-1 in the early 80's sold it with 90+ thou/miles. Through the 90's rode a V-45 Sabre and my Triple. Sold the Sabre bought a M2 Buell that turned into a new 03 Bonny. Along the way acquired a 76 BMW R75, a couple of big Suz GS's another T160 & T-150 that we still have. Wife a rider also GS-650 the other T-160, a Kaw 05 Z750S and her pride and joy bought new Grn/Silver 01 Bonny. In todays world doing an R3 or Tri is like you wrote BIG$$$$$$ to make rideable/reliable. And they do not tolerate hammer& chisel owners. Few 18-30 year olds seem to go to Japanese sport type or HD-XL's. Quess it's still weird!!! Keep on Triplin with Wail'n Triples

#698932 - 06/18/17 5:15 pm Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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Dana_twin Offline
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Oregon
Checked the cylinder barrel (head is off at the mo) and the liners do sit slightly proud of the casting... 5 thou is not much, but looks about right. ...Learn something every day of course. We used the solid copper head gasket last time and had a slight issue with leakage, so will use the gasket shown in the pic this time... (wonder if that will create a fire storm of controversy? smile

[Linked Image]

#698972 - 06/19/17 1:19 am Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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tridentt150v Offline
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Great Southern Land
Dana, I think that the Cometic gasket is a better bet. I would use one if I could, and used to all the time when my T150 was 750, I just think they sealed better [but I could be getting misty eyed].

#699107 - 06/20/17 5:51 am Re: Resleeve or not [Re: htown]  
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Oregon
I was steered to the Cometic site but being a body typical of the New Age (as in old age) I could not find a product ready to go, so looks like that gasket is a custom order... enough to frighten me well off. wooo. (not to mention my wallet, more than likely) laugh

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