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Not starting after rebuild #698225
06/12/17 4:11 pm
06/12/17 4:11 pm
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 146
Kent UK
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Pdh1 Offline OP
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Kent UK
Rebuilt engine with new pistons, valves and crank bearing. Also put on Pazon. It's got a spark, (fresh) petrols in carbs, tickler's floods. About a dozen kicks and nothing, not even a phut. Ive pulled the new plugs out, but they're not wet. Should they be after kicking and not firing ?


A65L 1966
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Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698227
06/12/17 4:48 pm
06/12/17 4:48 pm
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,155
Netherlands
Peter R Offline

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Peter R  Offline

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Posts: 2,155
Netherlands
Blocked idle jets ?


Peter.
1974 Commando 850
1972 Trident T150T
1961 Goldie DBD34
1969 Benelli 250 sport special
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698230
06/12/17 5:09 pm
06/12/17 5:09 pm
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 146
Kent UK
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Pdh1 Offline OP
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Kent UK
Guess I'll pull carbs apart, although they were cleaned before assembly. After about 12 kicks, would you think the plugs should be wet ?


A65L 1966
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698239
06/12/17 6:04 pm
06/12/17 6:04 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 888
Annapolis, MD
Dennis B, R.I.P. Offline
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Dennis B, R.I.P.  Offline
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Posts: 888
Annapolis, MD
Before taking the carbs off, I would put a couple drops of gas
in each spark plug hole, and give it a kick
if there is a moment of life, this would indicate no fuel
probably the pilot circuit which can be cleaned in situ
assuming other things are right, like valve adj.,timing,...
HTH
Cheers
Dennis B


Member # 182
'73 750 Commando
'72 Combat Commando
'71 Triumph Blazer
'69 Victors
'68 Starfire
'51 Royal Enfield 250 'S'

Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698241
06/12/17 6:14 pm
06/12/17 6:14 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,704
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Lannis  Offline

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Posts: 12,704
Central Virginia
Newly rebuilt, so I assume there's been a compression check to make sure that a machining chip isn't caught under a valve, and that the valve clearance is right. Compression should be 150+ on each side, throttle open, on a new engine.

Spark - If you take out the plug, connect it to the cap, and hold it against the head and kick, do you see a nice blue spark? Sparking in open air doesn't guarantee that it's sparking under compression, but it's good data. A timing light or inductive tester will show whether the plug is sparking in the actual cylinder.

Even if the pilot jet is blocked, the engine should fire and run a few turns on the priming fuel after you tickle it, so I'm betting on spark at this point ....

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698247
06/12/17 6:32 pm
06/12/17 6:32 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,810
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
I knew you'd chime in Lannis, I nearly typed before

"Compression, fuel, ignition" and knew that you would get what I meant hahaha.

Compression, as Lannis says, use a compression tester, they are always handy to have whether the engine is new or otherwise.

Fuel, were assuming its fresh fuel... if you have filters fitted remove them and try blocking the carb(s) off, this will choke the engine and have a positive draw on fuel. With the throttle open 1/4 turn(although you increase the chance ofnit kicking back) you will be drawing fuel away from the pilot jet source.

Ignition. Quality of spark. And ignition timing... I'm assuming you have an A65 as you didn't mention... but you said "plugs".

Sight the timing slot on the crank to the centre of the hole for fitting the locating tool, if you have the tool great! If not, hold it in place with a screw driver or similar. Sight the red dot on the magnet within the hole on the left hand side (8 o clock position). The timing won't be accurate but it will be close. Close enough to run the bike anyway. If it's too far retarded it won't run, or will seem to run on one side as mine did.


beerchug
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698250
06/12/17 7:05 pm
06/12/17 7:05 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,318
melbourne florida
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bodine031 Offline
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Posts: 1,318
melbourne florida
+ 1 on comprendo test 1st. I Prefer a leak down test but most do not have the tester

Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Allan Gill] #698264
06/12/17 8:03 pm
06/12/17 8:03 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,704
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Lannis  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,704
Central Virginia
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
I knew you'd chime in Lannis, I nearly typed before

"Compression, fuel, ignition" and knew that you would get what I meant hahaha.



I'm no expert, but I do know four things you can always be sure of:

1) Compression first, ignition second, fuel last will always get you there in the end.
2) 95% of all electrical problems are a bad battery or a bad ground.
3) There is NO tool except a battery load tester that will tell you if your battery is good.
4) The problem is generally related to the last thing YOU did.

I can't think of a single problem I've had (including the guys fixing my Norton last month) that didn't get fixed this way!

If I were setting up a new shop, the first two tools I would buy, before I bought a single screwdriver or wrench, would be a battery load tester and a cylinder leakdown tester. It's amazing how many people don't own either one! It sure does save a lot of time and head-scratching ....

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Lannis] #698268
06/12/17 8:18 pm
06/12/17 8:18 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,917
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
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GrandPaul  Offline
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Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Originally Posted by Lannis
A timing light or inductive tester will show whether the plug is sparking in the actual cylinder.

A timing light will show you that the coil is sending a high energy pulse through the spark plug, but it can't actually show you that there is an adequate spark under compression load to burn the fuel/air mixture (I don't believe).

In the NAVY, we had a test rig, a lexan box with a compressed air connection and a spark plug hole in it. You'd install suspect plug, coil, or spark plug wire, connect a compressed air hose set to 120 PSI, and then trigger a 12v pulse to the coil and see what the spark looked like. I was amazed at the difference!

Last edited by GrandPaul; 06/12/17 8:18 pm.

GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698271
06/12/17 9:13 pm
06/12/17 9:13 pm
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 146
Kent UK
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Pdh1 Offline OP
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Kent UK
Thanks for replys. I did do a compression test a couple of weeks ago and all was well. So now the embarrassing bit. Seems in that time, the clutch has decided to slip a tiny bit. So whilst it was turning over, it was doing so minimally. Doh ! Loosened clutch cable, but now run out of light, so will give it another go in a few days. I must admit it's been a long time since I kickstarted a bike other than my two stroke, which you can almost do with your hand. I guess that's why it wasn't obvious at first.


A65L 1966
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698281
06/12/17 11:45 pm
06/12/17 11:45 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,786
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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gavin eisler  Offline
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Posts: 3,786
argyll. scotland, uk
The alternator rotor has two timing marks 180 degrees apart, if you use the wrong one ( ie not 32 before TDC , but 32 before BDC) nothing happens, I did this recently. Take out a spark plug , take off the primary strobe plate cover, put finger on spark plug hole get to TDC, time to the mark nearest the pointer.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698319
06/13/17 11:48 am
06/13/17 11:48 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,968
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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Gnashville
And the Pazon has two wires from the trigger to the back box. If they get swapped round it won't start. Only takes a minute to double check this connection.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698321
06/13/17 11:54 am
06/13/17 11:54 am
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 146
Kent UK
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Pdh1 Offline OP
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Kent UK
Just a thought. I set piston with dial gauge through spark plug hole as instructions, @ 32 Btdc. A rotor line married up to timing hole in cover and so marked line with red pen. With this in place, I lined up Pazon so I could see dot through hole marked 'anti clockwise' can any one confirm this is correct ? Is Pazon set at TDC or as I've done it at 32 BTDC ?


A65L 1966
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698355
06/13/17 7:03 pm
06/13/17 7:03 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,810
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,810
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
The slot is marked 34 but not to worry,

Yes use the anti clockwise hole, if you didn't have the crank locked in place it can and will rotate clockwise (retarded) by the time you have timed at the pick ups.

The wet plugs or rather lack of it is where I would be looking, limited compression or incorrect cam timing would stop the motor pulling fuel through the carb. It requires vacuum and if the motor can't generate it, it can't pull fuel.

Also don't rule out the carbs. Until you have ruled out that something is working... assume that it isn't, even if it aught to be right


beerchug
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698362
06/13/17 7:51 pm
06/13/17 7:51 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 745
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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gunner  Offline
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Posts: 745
Farnham, Surrey, UK
Ideally you should lock the crank into the fully advanced position using the BSA timing tool engaged in the crank slot or a suitably sized screwdriver/allen key etc.

Once the fully advanced position is determined and locked into place, with the igntion & stator rotor installed, the red dot should aligh with the hole for anticlockwise timing. This setting should be accurate enough to get the bike started and later you can attempt to strobe it.

I wouldnt pay too much attention to marks on the alternator rotor as often the rotor has been changed with a version from another model and therefore innacurate, the crank timing slot is the best timing mark to use.

As you already have a spark, it sounds like the wiring is sound so a few other possibilities:-

- cleck for air leaks around the carb flanges, maybe the mounts are bowed
- check the air slide is fully bottoming and throttle cable not too tight
- check the pilot air screw is set to the default position of 1 -1/2 turns out
- clean out the pilot jets

I would expect the new plugs to smell of petrol after kicking over a dozen times, if not I imagine theres an air leak or pilot jets blocked.

Another possibility is the cam timing is out but check the above first.

Last edited by gunner; 06/13/17 7:57 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698457
06/14/17 2:49 pm
06/14/17 2:49 pm
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 146
Kent UK
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Pdh1 Offline OP
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Kent UK
Thanks. Sorted, and posted details on new thread 'It lives'


A65L 1966
Re: Not starting after rebuild [Re: Pdh1] #698492
06/14/17 9:41 pm
06/14/17 9:41 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,810
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,810
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Pdh1, it would be easier for readers if your questions were confined to one thread, least between this and the "it lives" thread. I can combine these if you wish?


beerchug

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