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Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #696457
05/25/17 10:53 am
05/25/17 10:53 am
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Back on the mainland!
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Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
There's the cost in dollars, and then there's the cost in time. ....this Ariel is going to cost a lot of hours before it will be ready for the Cannonball.


MMan -

Not to mention the hours you're spending here, asking/answering questions and documenting your endeavour. Your willingness to share information and answer questions make you a mensch, IMO. Just about everything I've learned about these old bikes came from sites like this and people like you. Without such resources, I would have probably ruined my bike a long time ago, or at the very least made some really poor decisions that I would have later regretted.

Looking forward to following your journey to a hopefully happy conclusion, whatever your definition of 'happy' may be!

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
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Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: JubeePrince] #696535
05/26/17 5:24 am
05/26/17 5:24 am
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by JubeePrince
Not to mention the hours you're spending here, asking/answering questions a...
Well, there is that. But, although I wouldn't know how to quantify the balance, in return for spending those hours I've also gained considerably from others on BritBike. Thanks very much for your nice comments.

Today's progress on the Ariel was limited to sending a large pile of cash to Ireland. My friend obviously wasn't too concerned about me being good for the money because it took a few weeks of nagging him before he finally got around to sending his banking information. The amount exceeded my bank's limit for on-line transfers but it only took 5 minutes at the local branch to take care of it. Although the bike was mine when it arrived it didn't feel quite right until I got this final "detail" taken care of.

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #696653
05/27/17 4:59 pm
05/27/17 4:59 pm
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On the subject of gearing I read that several sets of gears had been available at the time. My gearbox is stamped QL but I didn't know what that meant until this morning. I think I've found the information, although I don't understand the logic of the terminology that Burman used.

The last page of a 1929 Burman spares catalogue gives the internal ratios of the "High Standard," "Low Standard," and "T.T.A." gearing in their 'Q' gearboxes. Presumably, the first is stamped QH and the second is the one I have, QL.

The ratio of the 1st gear ratio to the 3rd gear for each of these is:
High Standard: 2.02 (stamped QH?)
Low standard: 2.79 (stamped QL?)
T.T.A.: 1.60

So, this would make the QH the close ratio (the T.T.A. the super-close ratio) and the QL the wide ratio. Although, I don't see the logic in using the words "high" and "low."

Calculations show that in all three cases Burman picked the three ratios to be evenly spaced, i.e. with the ratio for 2nd midway between that between 1st and 3rd. But, especially with the "Low Standard" (i.e. mine) they must feel like especially large jumps.

For comparison, the "Std" gearbox on pre-unit BSAs has an overall ratio difference of 2.58 between its low and high gears, i.e. roughly the same spread as the 2.79 on my Ariel. So, take that BSA gearbox and make it into a 3-speed with the intermediate ratio falling between the current 2nd and 3rd. The shifts would be from 1st to 2.5th to 4th.

As an example of what this means, when shifting the Ariel into 3rd at 4000 rpm the engine will drop all the way to 2400 rpm. Especially when we hit the Rockies I can imagine plenty of times when 3rd will be too high and 2nd too low.

When riding my 4-speed bikes I've often wished for one more gear. With the Ariel my wish was granted, the wrong way...

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #696655
05/27/17 5:50 pm
05/27/17 5:50 pm
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Greensboro, NC
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Is it legal in the event to change sprockets the night before you are riding into mountains? I know this doesn't change the ratio but at least you might have a gear low enough to make it up some of the hills.


Alan
Cleared m out....left only
59 BSA Bantam (Trials)
78 Triumph Bonny (UPS)
02 Suzuki GS500
Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Alan_nc] #696660
05/27/17 6:45 pm
05/27/17 6:45 pm
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Originally Posted by Alan_nc
Is it legal in the event to change sprockets the night before you are riding into mountains?
The short answer is, yes. The long answer is:

It's going to take some thought as to what is the best compromise gearing to use (assuming the necessary engine sprocket is available). As a reminder, the Cannonball's instructions say the motorcycles "need to maintain at least 43-50 mph on straight, flat roads."

The Owners' Guide has a gearing chart showing the rpm at various speeds and gear ratios. The highest rpm shown is 5630 although most entries top out at 5400-5500.

As an example, if based on the above I take 5500 as the true redline for this engine and gear it so it's 4500 rpm at 65 mph to keep well below redline even on a few short segments on Interstates, that means at 50 mph in top gear the engine will be at 3500 rpm. Although that sounds good, if the engine doesn't have the h.p. at that rpm to hold 50 mph climbing a long incline, or to regain that speed if balked by a motorhome, dropping down into 2nd would have the engine above redline at 5600 rpm. Or, the same 3500 rpm could be maintained in 2nd gear if the speed were dropped to 31 mph.

While it seems unlikely (I hope) that the organizers will take us over the Continental Divide on an Interstate where being able to hold at least 50 mph would be important, the above calculation shows why thought has to go into the overall gearing.

Lucky for me, the bike has a bolt-on rear sprocket so changing it will be no more difficult than changing a tire (not that changing a tire is easy or fun...). It has the stock number of 47 teeth and is ~9" in dia. While it couldn't be replaced with a smaller sprocket, one as large as ~10.5"-dia. could fit without causing the chain to interfere with anything, which would have 55 teeth. In the above example at 50 mph on that road in the Rockies the engine would be at 4100 rpm where it would have more hp.

Anyway, I'll certainly be giving more thought to gearing issues as time goes on. Ten miles from my house is the start of a mountain road that climbs to 8000 ft. in 27 miles so I'll be making good use of it to test both gearing and jetting in the months ahead.




Last edited by Magnetoman; 05/27/17 9:12 pm.
Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #696783
05/29/17 4:22 pm
05/29/17 4:22 pm
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We changed the motor sprocket on the 1915 Norton. We had 14 to 18 tooth sprockets. Ran the 17 the first day. We changed to the 15 on the second day as the were riding through West Virginia. Changed back to the 17 for a few days. It worked okay but the rider said he would have to downshift sometimes a long uphill. Changed to the 16 and it was perfect until we crossed the Great divide. Changed to the 14 tooth sprocket. Up and over with no problem. Back to the 16 for the rest of the trip.
I never figured out ratios. All by the seat of the pants. No tachometer either.

I did not see any other teams changing gearing.

Last edited by RPM; 05/29/17 4:24 pm.
Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: RPM] #696795
05/29/17 6:18 pm
05/29/17 6:18 pm
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Originally Posted by RPM
We changed the motor sprocket on the 1915 Norton....
Thanks very much for this information about your gearing experience. It's very helpful.

I haven't taken my primary cover off yet so I don't know how fast/slow it is to get to the engine sprocket. Or, how easy/hard it will be to find replacement ones in different sizes. That's why I discussed the rear sprocket since I could easily machine a generic aftermarket one to fit. Of course, a tooth or two on the engine sprocket makes a much bigger difference than on the rear one.

If only it had the optional 6-speed with fuel injection and electric starter...

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #696842
05/30/17 12:30 pm
05/30/17 12:30 pm
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Having changed the rear sprocket many times for gearing on different circuits - taking the wheel off and on and off and on - I have often been tempted to try a split rear sprocket. But I have never tried it mostly because on a race bike everything is being pushed to the limit and something might break.

But on a 1928 bike would it be worth a try? You would have to machined up a couple and carry two chain lenghts but that's not too difficult.

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #696869
05/30/17 5:39 pm
05/30/17 5:39 pm
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Although an old bike, its not a veteran, I think you will find it has a good performance and enough gears to cope. I would worry more about its ability to keep cool on a long mountain climb, These bikes were expected to give outstanding fuel economy and usually ran a bit weak to achieve this, ethanol laced fuel seems to make this critical. Modern piston clearances and valve guides may give more trouble than well worn orriginal bits, A phenolithic carb spacer may be usefull.

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #696887
05/30/17 8:00 pm
05/30/17 8:00 pm
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Originally Posted by norton bob
I think you will find it has a good performance and enough gears to cope.
I hope you're right.
Originally Posted by norton bob
A phenolithic carb spacer may be usefull.
That's a good suggestion. Thanks.
Originally Posted by johnm
a split rear sprocket.
That's another good suggestion. Although the small difference between the diameters makes things tight it looks like that might be a workable solution. It certainly would be easier to change the gearing that way than either removing the wheel to do it, or changing the engine sprocket.

That still leaves the optimum overall gearing to be determined. I have it from three sources, including one who's on Britbike, that a 'QL' gearbox like mine has a big jump from 2nd to 3rd. With standard overall gearing the bike has to be wound out to ~35 mph in 2nd before shifting to 3rd. It then slowly builds up steam until ~40 mph at which point the power starts coming on again. In other words, at 37 mph the engine would be screaming in 2nd but lugging in 3rd. The two obvious places where this 2nd/3rd gap matters are when traveling through towns and when climbing the Rockies.

Absent a 'QW' gearbox showing up I'm stuck with this ~5 mph gap, although it could be moved up or down the speed range by adjusting the overall gearing. The question then becomes, where will positioning this gap be least obnoxious? Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

If Norton Bob is right that the gearbox ratios will be OK, it still could be worth altering the overall ratio. Using a larger crankshaft sprocket (if ones that fit are available) could move the 2nd/3rd gap up to, say, between 40 and 45. That seems like it would be better for times I'm in traffic (assuming that change doesn't make 1st too high). However, in hilly or mountainous country it seems like having the gap at an even lower speed, like 30-35 (or even 25-30), might be best. Again, thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Note that whatever overall gearing is used, bolting on a 10.5" dia. rear sprocket would drop that overall ratio by ~16%, i.e. would move the gap down by ~ 5mph. Unfortunately, there isn't enough room for a large enough bolt-on sprocket to make more than a ~16% change. This means that using the rear sprocket alone the overall gearing couldn't be set for a gap between 40-45 in the flatlands and changed to 25-30 for the mountains.

Again, the question is, since there will be a 5 mph range where the bike will be sluggish, where would you position that gap if you were me?

I'm tied up today but will try to start putting a few miles on it tomorrow. There's no good substitute for actual experience with it on the road

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #696893
05/30/17 8:25 pm
05/30/17 8:25 pm
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bromley uk
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These old bikes usually have plenty of pull and flywheel , and "dig in" on hills, I know my 36 Rudge is a bit diferent but even with loads of mechanical issues to be sorted it still charges off with vigor and lets me know its closely related to the 1930 bike that did 200miles in 2 hours.My Ariel was a very rough girder 350 field bike bought for £3.50 , Never did a thing to it and it carried me back and forth to the rocker cafe for months at 50mph. No faster as it would otherwise take charge and frighten the life out of me.

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: norton bob] #696916
05/31/17 1:15 am
05/31/17 1:15 am
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Melbourne, Australia
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Hi,
I've been lurking and following the discussion with interest until I just can't help sticking my nose in. I've run bikes with 3-speed Sturmey Archer and 3 speed Albion for a long time and the same issue of compromise gearing arises with all. It's not hills that are the issue, it's long slow inclines just a tad too steep for high but not needing the big drop to middle. I end up plodding up long shallow drags at walking pace rather than have the engine screaming it's head off. I live in Australia which is not renowned for big hills but certainly seems to have its fair share of the long slow inclines I'm moaning about.. .
I would unhesitatingly gear for the long ride across country and let the Rockies take care of themselves. They are but a small proportion of the trip. I think keeping up your average so you get there on time will serve you best.

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Villiers] #696977
05/31/17 8:41 pm
05/31/17 8:41 pm
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by Villiers
I would unhesitatingly gear for the long ride across country and let the Rockies take care of themselves.
I've now put ~10 miles on it up and down the 2 mile neighborhood street, including a couple of hills and my steep driveway. I've been back for an hour and I still have a huge smile on my face.

Unlike a modern motorcycle where all you have to do is glance in the rear view mirror every once in a while, with the Ariel it feels like there are a hundred things competing for attention all at once. Also, it's one thing to know my neighborhood street is rough, but I didn't truly appreciate just how rough it is until today's ride on a rigid frame bike.

Notes after first lap:

Wire the rear stand up
Add rear view mirror
Add speedometer


Additional note after second lap:

Very securely wire the rear stand up

Despite the rear stand being knocked loose more than once the saddle is quite comfortable and "unbouncy." A firm grip on the handlebars, though, would soon knock bones from their sockets.

I'm now fairly comfortable with its Bronze Age drip feed irrigation system. If I don't turn the knob quite far enough no oil drips in the sight glass. If I turn it not very much further a steady stream develops which from the rider's position looks the same as no oil dripping (unless examined closely, which is impossible to do on a rough road). If I stop for any reason (like to return the rear stand to its seemingly-strong, but too-weak clip yet again) the oil doesn't start dripping again for what seems like forever, but is actually is maybe 5 sec.

Even though it felt like 50 I doubt if I even touched 25 at any time so all I could confirm is that it does have a 3rd gear. However, the engine has plenty of power so I'm now less concerned about optimizing the gearing. I discovered in my 'shop manual' last night that the standard gearing was a 23T engine sprocket, with 21T for 'solo, hilly country' and 19T for 'sidecar'. First gear feels fairly high so I suspect I'll find mine has the 23T. All the better for loping across the Great Plains.

The small catch bottle I put on the end of the breather connected to the timing case didn't collect anything, but this time I had laid out a large piece of cardboard to park it on and it collected quite a bit of oil, all of which is dark, old stuff. This must be coming from the other engine breather whose existence behind the primary cover I have yet to confirm.

As soon as I get a rear view mirror and speedometer installed it will be ready to venture further from the neighborhood. For now I'll hook up a cheap Chinese bicycle speedometer but longer term I'll want a more elegant solution. Making this difficult is the QL gearbox doesn't have a speedometer drive. Speedometer suggestions gratefully appreciated.

p.s. both brakes suck. Relining with modern material and arcing to the drum is a must-do item.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 05/31/17 8:43 pm. Reason: p.s.
Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #696995
06/01/17 1:47 am
06/01/17 1:47 am
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Melbourne, Australia
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Villiers Offline
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Time is of far more importance than speed. How much time do you have to the next check point? Are you on time, behind time or ahead? An old fashioned gentleman's pocket watch mounted on the handlebar is far more useful than a speedo and easier to read than a digital thingie. A second watch in your pocket lets you check the accuracy of the first. Things are even easier with an enduro style trip meter that can be reset back to zero at every check point, Easily driven off the front wheel with a standard vintage accessory speedo drive.

Secondly, did you replace the grease nipples in the front end and grease it properly? Even if you did it will take a good hundred miles for everything to free up nicely whereupon the ride will steadily get smoother but still only to a standard where you will understand why tele forks were such a popular improvement.

Thirdly, there is a natty little channel in the primary chain cover of my '26' Matchless that catches the breather drippings and directs it onto the engine sprocket and chain. You may have something similar. Oil does not necessarily drip straight out of the breather on to the ground.

Fourthly, do not leap into re lining your brakes. Most modern linings are far too hard for these beasties. You will get far better results from very soft linings. They will work very well except possibly for descending the Rockies. It's another compromise. Good brakes for 95% of the trip but possibly hair raising for the 5% you really want them. Then again, if it was easy it'd be no fun would it.
Cheers,.

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Villiers] #697025
06/01/17 1:15 pm
06/01/17 1:15 pm
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Wisconsin, USA
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Just a thought about the brakes on bikes from this era.
If I remember correctly someone had written and asked Bob Currie (sp) why the front brakes were so poor at stopping on the older bikes.
He answered that it was by design because of the road surface at the time they were built was made of cobble stone, wood block or other such surfaces that became slippery when wet.
The rear brake being stronger was to keep the front end from sliding out with the brake locked up.
A little more information as you decide how to address the issue.

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #697037
06/01/17 4:49 pm
06/01/17 4:49 pm
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by Villiers
How much time do you have to the next check point?
It's not an event like that. Roughly 125 miles to a lunch stop, and another 125 to the next overnight stop. We just have to get to those two points each day by a given time or sooner with no other checkpoints along the way.

Originally Posted by Villiers
Secondly, did you replace the grease nipples in the front end and grease it properly?
It had unknown-to-me grease fittings when it arrived, but as soon as zerks showed up I greased everything with the closest modern equivalents to what Ariel recommended.

Originally Posted by Villiers
Thirdly, there is a natty little channel in the primary chain cover of my '26' Matchless that catches the breather drippings and directs it onto the engine sprocket and chain. You may have something similar.
The breather tube at the end of which I put a catch bottle is a continuous tube. If anything had come out of it I would have caught it in the bottle. However, hidden under the primary cover is another breather that is intended to oil the chain. And, apparently, the driveway and everything else within a 5 ft. radius.

Originally Posted by Villiers
Fourthly, do not leap into re lining your brakes. Most modern linings are far too hard for these beasties. You will get far better results from very soft linings.
Originally Posted by franko
asked Bob Currie (sp) why the front brakes were so poor ... He answered that it was by design
There's no way I would cross the U.S. with the present brake linings. I've had Michael Morse of Vintage Brake do the brakes on three of my bikes over the past 20 years and I've already arranged a place in his queue to have him reline both of the Ariel's brakes and turn them to the dia. of my drums. Before I send him the backing plates and shoes I'll turn the drums to remove any possible distortion and supply the dimensions to Morse for his work. Take a look at www.vintagebrake.com/info.htm.

I've read and heard contradictory advice about the interaction of the front brake with girder forks, and my own half-vast personal experiences with girder forks totals the ~10 miles I rode yesterday, So, if falls to me to estimate the effects of mechanical forces myself.

One could say the Ariel's forks are triangulated, but the angle of the triangle is so narrow that the fore-aft rigidity can't be much better than if it had telescopic forks made with the same total cross section of steel, i.e. pretty low. So, when clamping on the front brake I can expect the forks to bend backwards by a significant amount. The stronger the clamping action of the brake, the more the legs will bend. This is a particular problem if the drum isn't perfectly round because in that case the braking force will oscillate with each revolution. The combination of an oscillating force and springy legs of steel would make for "interesting" behavior.

Having a really poor front brake would eliminate the lack of rigidity as an issue even for an out-of-round drum, but having dual Brembos even with warped disks would maximize stopping power. The optimum solution for a girder-forked bike lies between those two extremes. Based on my half-vast experience, I believe that solution to be proper modern linings arced to the diameter of drums I will have turned to make as cylindrical as possible.


The Ariel now has a rear view mirror and a bicycle speedometer so it's ready to venture further into the world. Today, though, I plan on spending some quality time with a Catalina.

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #697100
06/02/17 7:00 am
06/02/17 7:00 am
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bromley uk
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norton bob Offline
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I found the front brake on my Rudge to be totally useless, so much so that I was sure it was full of grease. however once I had swopped the shoes over so that the thicker one was in the leading position all was well, I now regularly swap shoes around and use a caliper to check which shoe is best. The girder damper needs adjusting to the speed ,so its one more thing to do, tyre pressures are critical and 20 in the front seems to work with Avon speedmaster .,Any more and its too bouncy. All seems far too busy till I reach 60 and slip into top when it turns into a smooth magic flying carpet!!.

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: norton bob] #697120
06/02/17 12:58 pm
06/02/17 12:58 pm
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Melbourne, Australia
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Villiers Offline
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In the end I find the effectiveness of the front brake rises and falls on the girder fork set up. No matter how much care I put in to it for it to work effectively the wheel must be firmly on the road and it's all too easy to have it dithering all over the place. The lack of anything approaching modern damping means getting the friction damping and tyre pressure just so to keep the wheel on the road, exactly as Norton Bob says. I think you really begin to appreciate the fine balance needed to have all components give of their best and how much it differs from bike to bike.

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Villiers] #697160
06/02/17 5:44 pm
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norton bob  Offline
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bromley uk
Friction dampers can easily become contaminated with the grease for the links, this ruins there performance. On the Rudge the spring is concealed in a tube and these have been modified to include a hydraulic damper, crafty yes?. Modern sintered linings will wear out hens teeth rare hubs.

Last edited by norton bob; 06/02/17 5:46 pm.
Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #697203
06/03/17 12:24 am
06/03/17 12:24 am
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Posts: 4,077
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Originally Posted by norton bob
once I had swopped the shoes over ... all was well
The girder damper needs adjusting to the speed ,so its one more thing to do
Originally Posted by Villiers
In the end I find the effectiveness of the front brake rises and falls on the girder fork set up.
That your braking improved when you simply swapped shoes is why I'll have mine arced to the measured diameter of the drums.

On a more general note, it's easy to dismiss any aspect of performance that's less than desirable as due to it being "a 1928 motorcycle." Certainly there are limitations because of the engineering of that age, but my approach to work on any bike is to try to understand the intrinsic limitations (as opposed to extrinsic ones, such as manufacturing tolerances or defects, wear, lack of proper lubrication, etc.) and then look for solutions that give the best possible performance within those intrinsic limitations.

As an example, compression and rebound damping of any fork, including telescopic, affects performance. Unfortunately, an intrinsic limitation of my 1928 Ariel is tension on the friction discs is set with a nut and lock nut so adjustment on the fly isn't possible. In tests on different roads and speeds I'll have to determine the "best" friction setting and then live with that setting on whatever road surfaces I later encounter. Of course, on the side of the road I could change the damping if I decide it's needed, or possibly swap the lock nuts for a knob. Further, the manual says to "inspect and replace" the friction discs at 4000 miles which tells me I'll likely have to compensate for wear over the course of the 3750-mile Cannonball.

As for other aspects of fork setup, when I take them apart I'll accurately measure them (I have an appropriate surface plate and measuring instruments), remove any small twists or bends (30 ton press), line bore to eliminate any binding of the spindles (mill), properly adjust the headstock bearings and taper roller wheel bearings on assembly and again after a few hundred miles, etc. These efforts should result in a girder fork that will work as well as any fork of this design possibly can.

Originally Posted by norton bob
On the Rudge the spring is concealed in a tube and these have been modified to include a hydraulic damper, crafty yes?.
For better or worse, I'm approaching this as an exercise in experiencing what it's like to ride an original-as-possible 90-year old motorcycle across the country so I'll be sticking with the friction damper.

Of course, I'll be on modern tires and I'll also use LED lights and modern oils and greases. However, even if original 1928 tires in un-degraded condition were available, safety depends too much on tires and brakes for me to insist on being 100% period-correct for items like these. For similar safety reasons I installed a later, larger tail light assembly (Lucas L529) for its greater visibility than the one supplied as an accessory in 1928. I want to experience riding a 1928 motorcycle, not dying on one. Although a Magdyno was an optional accessory in 1928 we won't be riding at night so keeping the stock magneto is my preferred choice and LEDs will allow me to do that.

Approached as a competition I would want every upgrade that's possible to slip by inspection. However, I'm approaching this as an experience riding a 90-year old motorcycle across the U.S. so I only want the upgrades that I feel are prudent to have.

Turning to recent progress, I learned today the semi-liquid grease for the gearbox has been delayed until the end of the month. So, to be sure all is OK until then I added a large dollop of 50W to the grease in the gearbox. No doubt some will ooze out to join the other oil puddles but some should stay in and help with the lubrication. Although the Ariel is ready for its next outing a daughter borrowed the pickup for a horse show so I won't wander too far from home until she returns it on Sunday. This also means I'll spend some more time with the Catalina.


Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #697281
06/03/17 8:27 pm
06/03/17 8:27 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,901
Greensboro, NC
Alan_nc Online content
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Alan_nc  Online Content
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Greensboro, NC
Back to brakes for a moment:

Even with turning I would use the old chalk on pads method of making sure the brakes fit the drum. Chalk the pads, spin drum while engaging brakes, check to see where chalk has worn off, sand down clean area - repeat - repeat - repeat...until pad is cleaned evenly.

Makes a big difference.

Just my .02


Alan
Cleared m out....left only
59 BSA Bantam (Trials)
78 Triumph Bonny (UPS)
02 Suzuki GS500
Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Alan_nc] #697300
06/03/17 11:38 pm
06/03/17 11:38 pm
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 152
New Brunswick, Canada.
Bruce Martin Offline
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Bruce Martin  Offline
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Posts: 152
New Brunswick, Canada.
Originally Posted by Alan_nc
Back to brakes for a moment:

Even with turning I would use the old chalk on pads method of making sure the brakes fit the drum. Chalk the pads, spin drum while engaging brakes, check to see where chalk has worn off, sand down clean area - repeat - repeat - repeat...until pad is cleaned evenly.

Makes a big difference.

Just my .02



Thanks - I'll try this on my '37 Ariel Red Hunter with a very poor front brake despite which I actually ride.

Bruce


1937 Ariel Red Hunter 500
1970 Triumph Bonneville

Making the scene with the gasoline
Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Alan_nc] #697359
06/04/17 3:31 pm
06/04/17 3:31 pm
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Posts: 4,077
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Originally Posted by Alan_nc
Chalk the pads, spin drum while engaging brakes, check to see where chalk has worn off, sand down clean area - repeat - repeat - repeat...until pad is cleaned evenly.
That's a good idea. Thanks for suggesting it. Wait! That would mean additional work for me. That makes it a bad idea...

On the subject of work, when contemplating the bike on the lift it struck me that it doesn't appear possible to remove the rear wheel without either raising the bike further off the ground than possible with the stand, or laying it on its side and working fast before all the fluids leak out of the tank. Maybe looks are deceptive and there actually is enough clearance to get the wheel out of there. It's hard to imagine a design that wouldn't allow this, but stranger things have happened. However, if not, it would be problematic to repair a flat on the side of the road.

I mentioned this to Shane in Oz, who noted that reproduction, hinged BSA M20 mudguards are available. His suggestion triggered a neuron that already should have fired on its own, leading me to the garage where I have two original M20 mudguards, and a box of assorted stays, on the shelf.

Conveniently, an M20 mudguard has the same 6" cross section as the one on the Ariel as well as the same radius. As a result, it appears it would be relatively easy, as these things go, to adapt one of them to fit. However, both M20 mudguards have issues that would have to be dealt with before either could be used. One is rusty, but otherwise complete. The other is missing the hinge and has the two pieces held together with screws. Although I could grind the rivets off and swap the hinge from the other one, there are still cracks that would need repair.

For the moment, at least, I decided the rusty one seems most promising so I bought the largest pan I could find at a "dollar store" and ~1/4 of that mudguard is currently marinating in a molasses/treacle solution. Based on my previous results it should be about a week before I can rotate the mudguard to immerse the next 1/4. And so on. Depending on how it looks when this process is done I may or may not use a rust conversion primer, but at the rate treacle works I have a month to decide on that. Also, I have a month to determine whether or not the wheel can be removed without having to modify the bike.

If nothing else, the process of patching thr M20 mudguard would let me improve my metalworking skills using a component that needs to be functional but doesn't have to be perfect. However, even though it would be largely "camouflaged" by other parts of the bike I still would work to make my repairs as invisible as possible.



p.s. The owner of another Black Ariel responded on the AOMCC website that his is high enough on the rear stand that it indeed is possible for him to extract the wheel. I'll know myself later this month when I remove it to arc the drum and measure it for Vintage Brake to arc the linings when they're installed later this summer.


Last edited by Magnetoman; 06/04/17 9:30 pm. Reason: p.s.
Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #697484
06/05/17 3:18 pm
06/05/17 3:18 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 724
bromley uk
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norton bob Offline
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norton bob  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 724
bromley uk
In the Uk many of the roads have pavements that are raised above the road surface, this helps if you have to remove a wheel as you can put the bike on the pavement and swing the wheel over the road. I also carry (in the pannier) some wood blocks.

Re: Technical questions: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #697632
06/06/17 7:15 pm
06/06/17 7:15 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,077
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Posts: 4,077
U.S.
Rust never sleeps, but neither does molasses/treacle. I checked the progress of my very rusty M20 mudguard last night, after 2 days + ~4 hours, and the rust was completely gone from the section that had been immersed. However, I wasn't prepared to do anything further with it at that point so I left it immersed overnight and today rinsed that section in water while lightly scrubbing with a Scotchbrite pad to help remove the residue.

I then placed the next ~1/4 of the mudguard into position in the pan for its turn in the solution, which has left the freshly de-rusted metal unprotected in the air. Although it might acquire a thin coating of rust over the next week, I'll be welding the mudguard when this is done and removing primer would take more time than removing any small amount of fresh surface rust.

In addition to checking on the mudguard I ordered a set of 2" stick-on vinyl numbers and letters to put my Cannonball entry number on the "pedestrian slicer." Although it doesn't sound like I accomplished much on the Ariel yesterday, because I didn't, even on days when I don't have any time I'm doing my best to try to at least do something to move forward.

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