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Spooky electrics #692869
04/24/17 6:58 am
04/24/17 6:58 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,557
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content OP

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HawaiianTiger  Online Content OP

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,557
Maui Hawaii
I had to go rescue a friend Saturday who had his T140 die at the gas station. He said it was a blown fuse. I took a tool kit and rode down. A new fuse, re-attach a wire that had come loose and insulated the battery from the seat and he was on the road.
I'm not sure what all happened but there's going to be more to this story. As he went to start his bike, I noticed the red ignition light(or oil pressure light?) on his headlight was flashing about the speed of turn signals. Also, his turn signals no longer worked. ????
This should be fun. I've come to enjoy diagnosing electrical problems, no matter how weird. And this one is weird.

Update at eleven.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
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Re: Spooky electrics [Re: HawaiianTiger] #692875
04/24/17 9:14 am
04/24/17 9:14 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,463
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,463
Scotland
Hi Bill,

Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
I noticed the red ignition light(or oil pressure light?) on his headlight was flashing about the speed of turn signals. Also, his turn signals no longer worked. ?

Might be a simple 'earth/ground' problem? As standard, Lucas never supplied, and Triumph never fitted, Red return wires to the turn signals, relying on their attachment to the bike and sundry bits of bike in between to get the electrons to a Red wire to get 'em to battery +ve. facepalm Even on the turn signals themselves, this relies on the chrome across the plastic bodies and the body/stem connection that accumulates dirt and rust ...

Then the o.p. warning circuit relies on the switch's mounting to the engine and the engine's connection to a Red wire to, again, get the electrons back to battery +ve.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Spooky electrics [Re: HawaiianTiger] #692928
04/24/17 6:51 pm
04/24/17 6:51 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,557
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content OP

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HawaiianTiger  Online Content OP

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,557
Maui Hawaii
I'm going to start with the turn signal switch. It has been giving problems and is a real pile of junk. I have the solution for this sitting on my desk, which is an earlier assembly where the lever and switch perch are one. It's been sitting there for months waiting for him to bring his bike by.

Anyway, the likely scenario is three separate failures simultaneously. First, the turn signal switch failed and somehow connected the ignition circuit to the turn signal circuit. Then a wire fell off the Podtronics unit, one of the two from the alternator. Then the seat shorted out across the battery, blowing the fuse.

There was no way he was going to finish his ride Saturday, that's for sure.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Spooky electrics [Re: HawaiianTiger] #692944
04/25/17 8:25 pm
04/25/17 8:25 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,557
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content OP

BritBike Forum member
HawaiianTiger  Online Content OP

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,557
Maui Hawaii
Found the problems. First the turn signal blinker unit had rotated in its spring and at the same time the insulation on one of the spade lugs dropped down allowing contact with the side cover. With vibration, it eventually wore through the paint and began to short. Apparently, if you have a high resistance short to ground at the green wire, it causes the ignition light to blink?????. It may have shorted the white wire to ground, too, blowing the fuse, but I can't find evidence of that.

Anyway, it has an ignition switch light wired in instead of the oil pressure light. As soon as I removed the side cover, the blinking ceased.
Well that's how I did the diagnosis. Turn on the ignition switch and troubleshoot one thing, then another.
I replaced his entire left side handlebar assemblies with an earlier one, and what a difference it has made.
My friend is just raving about the clutch action now. He was actually looking to see if the clutch cable was still attached!
I ditched all the white plastic connectors inside the headlamp shell, replace the right side switch with one I had in my parts stash. Now all the wires have the correct color codes for their particular operation and only bullet connectors inside there now.

However, the operation is a bit different. Left side switch controls turn signals and engine cutout(with a momentary type switch instead of an off/on type.) Ride side controls high/low beam, horn and headlight flash function. It meant disabling the front brake switch, but maybe that can be solved.

Has anyone found a hydraulic brake banjo bolt brake light switch that works with the Lockheed unit?
It would be greatly appreciated!
Never mind. Found it. Banjo bolt brake switch 3/8 x 24
Bill


Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 04/25/17 9:57 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Spooky electrics [Re: HawaiianTiger] #692964
04/25/17 9:49 pm
04/25/17 9:49 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,133
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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Tridentman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,133
New Jersey USA
Modify the front brake hydraulics to be as per the 1979 twins--they incorporate a hydraulically operated brake light switch.
Just done it on a T160---a bit fiddly but once done it works fine.
The original front brake switch built into the lever is a joke---a bad joke!
HT

Re: Spooky electrics [Re: HawaiianTiger] #692984
04/25/17 11:49 pm
04/25/17 11:49 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,516
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
JBMorris Online content
BritBike Forum member
JBMorris  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,516
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Quote
I ditched all the white plastic connectors inside the headlamp shell,


'pin' type & white so you can see residue of a failed connection- my '78 had the same problem- good advice to all.


1978 Bonneville T140V PX
Re: Spooky electrics [Re: HawaiianTiger] #693033
04/26/17 10:14 am
04/26/17 10:14 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,463
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,463
Scotland
Hi Bill,

Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
Found the problems. First the turn signal blinker unit had rotated in its spring and at the same time the insulation on one of the spade lugs dropped down allowing contact with the side cover. With vibration, it eventually wore through the paint and began to short. Apparently, if you have a high resistance short to ground at the green wire, it causes the ignition light to blink?

If you think about it, the turn signals wiring through the blinker unit is 'live' up to the handlebar switch any time the ignition switch is on. Moving the turn signals switch right or left 'makes' the circuit.

So, the blinker unit touching the side cover just acted like the normal turn signals switch. Then, in the same way the turn signals idiot lamp is just connected between the right and left turn signals' wires and 'grounds' through the wires of the side that isn't blinking, the "ignition light' gave a path to 'ground' for the 'circuit'. bigt

So not "a high resistance short" ( wink a short is low-resistance, hence the high current that blows the fuse ... or melts the wire ...) but a proper 'circuit' - a bit unconventional - 'switched' by the blinker unit touching the sidepanel. grin

Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
replaced his entire left side handlebar assemblies with an earlier one,
all the wires have the correct color codes for their particular operation and only bullet connectors inside
Left side switch controls turn signals and engine cutout(with a momentary type switch instead of an off/on type.) Ride side controls high/low beam, horn and headlight flash

Risking suggesting something you've done already, you've insulated the bullet terminal on the end of any White/Red wire attached to the 'spare' push button? That's also supplied by a White wire and, if the button's pressed accidentally and the bullet isn't insulated, it causes a short. frown Fwiw, I connect the White/Red wire into the Blue/White headlamp main wires, then there's a 'headlamp flash' button in both switch clusters - if he needs to flash the headlamp and sound the horn at the same time ... smile

Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
ditched all the white plastic connectors inside the headlamp shell,

bigt

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Spooky electrics [Re: HawaiianTiger] #693100
04/26/17 7:05 pm
04/26/17 7:05 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,557
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content OP

BritBike Forum member
HawaiianTiger  Online Content OP

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,557
Maui Hawaii
I lack the terminology to otherwise quickly describe an unforeseen and accidental high resistance current pathway. The circuit completed through the side panel mounting screw as the rest of the panel is rubber insulated and it was covered in paint. The fuse didn't blow because of this, I'm sure, but when the blinker unit rotated enough to expose the white wire to the above connection, it could have blown the fuse. One of those perfect storms of causal incidents.

So, now the headlight stopped working. It's down to the right turn signal switch, but I'm thinking there is likely a mismatch of parts causing this. There are probably four types of switch bats from what I can see. Two basic shapes and two types of functions. One is three position(ie turn signal) and another is high/low beam two position. Add another color to the mix, ie. red, and there is likely five different bats or more. I don't have all the iterations of Lucas handlebar mounted switch bats at my disposal.

I was wondering about the red/white wire. It goes nowhere at the moment and is taped off.

I'm also at a loss to explain why there are three white wires going to the right handlebar switch. One would do. Two are connected to one bullet connector and is possibly just a convenient way to connect two wires together, so really only two wires. All three switches inside the cluster need power, but surely it could have been done with just one wire?
Oh, well, no sense pondering the why of certain things as long as you can get there from here.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Spooky electrics [Re: HawaiianTiger] #693132
04/26/17 10:23 pm
04/26/17 10:23 pm
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 612
San Rafael, Ca.
BikeVice Online content
BritBike Forum member
BikeVice  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 612
San Rafael, Ca.
Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger



I was wondering about the red/white wire. It goes nowhere at the moment and is taped off.



That's for your imaginary electric starter.

Eric


1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS

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