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#691926 - 04/16/17 11:49 am BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment  
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semprini Offline
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I've recently acquired an A65 but suspect some mis-alignment. The distance between the pillion footrest frame-loop and the adjacent s/arm is about 7mm nearside and 15mm offside, so probably a result of nearside crash damage in its past. The wheel alignment seems spot on along with equally spaced spindle adjuster bolts, so it might be confined to the frame loop only. So, could fellow owners confirm my findings?


a
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#691935 - 04/16/17 2:53 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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gunner Online content
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Just checked my measurements and the pillion footrest to swingarm clearance seems to be approx 12mm each side of the swinging arm. My A65 uses an early A65 Star frame with the full loop rear frame mounting but has a 1968 Firebird engine.

I don't know what differences there were between the early and late A65 frames but I imagine the pillion footrest loop on each side would be similar, with regard to the swinging arm clearance.

As suggested, it sounds like your frame has been in a smash sometime and although you could fix this yourself, its worthwhile getting the complete frame jigged and corrected.

I recently used Motoliner Maidstone to jig and correct a 750 Commando I'm restoring and can recommend their services.

There are some online drawings of A65 frame dimensions for both early and late pre OIF models which may be of use see images below :-

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Last edited by gunner; 04/16/17 8:05 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#691946 - 04/16/17 5:27 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Because the chain run is on the near side, the whole frame, especially the seat rail on all the BSA's I've seen are aligned with that in mind. With the seat fitted, everything will look equal.


Plus one to having the frame checked though.

Last edited by Allan Gill; 04/16/17 5:29 pm.

beerchug
#691953 - 04/16/17 7:31 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Thank you both for the info which confirms that there is a problem; the bike probably landed on the near side because the front rest was a little off-square until I straightened it.


a
#691964 - 04/16/17 9:08 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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A proper frame alignment company can sort this. I'm using the mobile version of this site so I can't see where your from, but if it's the UK, SRM can do this for you.

As I say, seat rails sit further out on the chain side, this is because the swing arm is also further out on the chain side too all because of the chain


beerchug
#692160 - 04/18/17 8:46 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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I'm based in north Sheffield.


a
#692161 - 04/18/17 9:06 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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What year is the frame? Sorry if you've already mentioned this.


beerchug
#692183 - 04/18/17 2:01 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Its a 68 registered, noticed silencers are marked1/68


a
#692193 - 04/18/17 3:56 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Nice, you will have to post up some photos.

My lightning is a 68 and I have a 67 spitfire frame.

Last edited by Allan Gill; 04/18/17 3:57 pm.

beerchug
#692209 - 04/18/17 5:38 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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What's the difference between the frames you have? Can't post any photos yet as the tank and side panels etc are off until the frame is repaired.

can I PM you?


a
#692386 - 04/19/17 9:03 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Allan,
That's interesting, I'm currently waiting for a '67 Spitfire to be delivered that's currently sitting in a 1970 Lightning frame - clearly matching is somewhat old hat.
Dave

#692393 - 04/19/17 9:23 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: A65_lover]  
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My 64 a65 is not equal

#692438 - 04/20/17 6:50 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: A65_lover]  
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Originally Posted by A65_lover
Allan,
That's interesting, I'm currently waiting for a '67 Spitfire to be delivered that's currently sitting in a 1970 Lightning frame - clearly matching is somewhat old hat.
Dave



That will be interesting to see when you get it. The spitfire frame of mine has had (not by me) the rear sections cut off after the seat brackets, not an issue for me as the frame would get modified further and turned into a racer. I was looking at getting another frame with V5 and swapping the rear section over, sleeve and weld the rear loop back on.

If this is of any interest to you let me know, only thing is I'm looking for a 67 frame(with a 67 Reg)


beerchug
#692481 - 04/20/17 1:19 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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The '68 frame is detailed here No 82-8281, earlier years have different part nos but details can be seen on the relevant (year) exploded drawings.

https://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/bsa/bsa/a50-a-a65/1968/category/296-frame

It's also noticeable, when you look from the rear, that the nearside silencer is a little further in than the offside. I initially thought it was due to a bent silencer bracket until further investigation. Also, the offside edge of the stand foot strikes the bottom of the silencer when sprung back up. I would think that, on mine, the sw/arm clearances ought to be equal.


a
#692495 - 04/20/17 2:11 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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As I mentioned earlier the swing arm isn't equal on both sides, the chain run doesn't permit this. The rear shocker mounts are also not mirror positioned to reflect this, ie the drive side mount is further out.

67-68 frames are identical. Similar to earlier open loop frames but the seat lugs are about 2-3 inches further back. (We will forget the hornet frames at this point)

69-70 frames are identical. Some have fairing mounts on the head stock, the seat mounts are different again (raised this time) and they use a different swing arm.

Pre 67 bikes all have their own anomalies and different versions and swinging ark options. (Choice of 3) depending on open or closed chainguard, length and wheel Hub type.

Last edited by Allan Gill; 04/20/17 2:13 pm.

beerchug
#696353 - 05/24/17 1:13 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Thanks for the frame info Alan.

Wonder if someone would compare this brake- pedal bush angle with their own A65. It appears to me that (as far as I can see) the exhaust pipes run parallel with the frame centre line. If frame repairs are required then I think I will have to wait until the end of the season.

http://imgur.com/a/jlTZe

Last edited by semprini; 05/24/17 1:14 pm.

a
#696379 - 05/24/17 6:35 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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I do know the early frames use a different down pipe that doesn't have the slight kick. I'm thinking you might have the later pipe on an early frame. The frame mounting tabs are also different. One mounts to the top of the down pipe tab
early, the other to the bottom late.

#696548 - 05/26/17 11:29 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Au
Hi, it's cold,dark,wet and late however I went down to the shed and used your rough style of measurement on my 1969 firebird frame to find ~ 15mm on the right side and 7mm on other give or take, only used a tape and torch.
I would suggest getting some more info before pulling on frame.
Cheers Mark.

#696584 - 05/26/17 8:24 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Thankyou for that markoz.

If you look at the photo, the LH silencer is closer in than the RH causing the centre-stand foot to foul it (the silencer support bracket is not bent). This leads me to suspect that something might be amiss with the LH frame loop.

http://imgur.com/a/Ap7JI

A further puzzle is the position of the brake rod which is fouling the stop-switch bracket even when set on the lower pedal hole. Is something missing like another bracket?


a
#696587 - 05/26/17 8:38 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Looks like you have the wrong brake switch and the brake rod is attached to the wrong hole on the pedal.

Have a look at This Thread and you will see that the brake switch is actually mounted on its own special bracket using the hole just above the swinging arm pivot. A second bracket is mounted on the brake pedal using the two forward holes and this bracket engages with the brake switch.

The brake rod is meant to attach to the rear hole on the pedal and you may find it necessary to shorten the rod as they are sometimes too long.

Last edited by gunner; 05/26/17 8:38 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#696591 - 05/26/17 8:54 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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But if it is the wrong switch, it begs the question of why the existing switch bracket? I had used the bottom hole just for seeing whether a better clearance could be achieved. I fear that when the supension compresses the rod will foul unless it is well bent, which it was when the bike was delivered. Strange.


a
#696622 - 05/27/17 7:22 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Any more photos? Everything I'm seeing so far looks normal.

The heel on the centre stand will hit the LH silencer and the silencers will hug the foot rest loops you mention.

Last edited by Allan Gill; 05/27/17 7:25 am.

beerchug
#696627 - 05/27/17 8:03 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: Allan Gill]  
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When I've got the tank and seat back on and given it a wash I'll send some more photos.


a
#696630 - 05/27/17 9:27 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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I suspect that at some point someone may have fitted rear sets and moved the brake pedal to the pillion mount, hence the need for a new brake switch mount. This may also account for the misalignment of the exhausts, perhaps a previous owner deliberately bent the pillion loop for extra clearance somewhere?

It would be simple enough to convert back to the normal arrangement, the parts are readily available. I would cut off the extra bracket as it seems to foul the brake rod.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
#696765 - 05/29/17 1:12 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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IME , exhaust fittings move, as pipes heat up and cool down they shift around , they seldom fit correctly when new, and after initial fitting they settle after a few heat cycles. Dont lose any sleep over your pipe alignment.
The brake rod is a different matter, looks like you need to review some stuff there, as fitted it just looks wrong, the rod looks too long, and if the bend is needed perhaps the rear operating arm is the wrong one or has been bent, more offset here would help get a straight rod to clear the furniture.
The brake switch certainly isnt helping, stock striker and switch would put that right.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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#696773 - 05/29/17 2:04 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Originally Posted by semprini


If you look at the photo, the LH silencer is closer in than the RH causing the centre-stand foot to foul it (the silencer support bracket is not bent).



I have a 1969 A65.I had an issue with the center stand fouling the LH silencer.It happened when I replaced the original BSA headpipes,with a set from Armours.
Their pattern, primary side pipe, was straight,not kicking up past the primary cover.
Here are some pictures,(4), two on a dark background, from an eBay ad,showing the kick up,similar to my factory pipes LINK


1969 BSA A65T w/A70 engine
1970 Royal Enfield Interceptor S ll
#697631 - 06/06/17 7:04 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: gavin eisler]  
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When it's on the road shortly, I'm taking it up to the dealer/seller and get his expanation for the brake rod, he's had several a65s so should know.


a
#698324 - 06/13/17 12:18 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Been a long while since I played A 65 but that brake arm looks way too long to me .
AFAIK all BSA brake arms are interchangeable as they all have the same size square machined on them.
It might just be the angle but the anchor strap looks a little on the short side as well.
the brake cam sits vertical above the axel and the rod runs above the axle.
Me thinks the brake arm might just be a front one fitted to give more leverage to compensate for a short pedal which would have been fitted if as previously mentioned the bike had rearsets fitted.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#698346 - 06/13/17 5:30 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: Keane Lucas]  
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Armours strikes again!

#703106 - 07/28/17 1:14 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Apologies for delay in replying. I think the frame-loop switch bracket needs to come off which will allow the correct rod alignment, and (as gavin suggests), a stock switch and striker, although I notice that stock switches are around £50!!

Engine running ok now, measured the comp. at 165 both pots. It's fitted with Mk 1 Boyer ignition which, I've found, needs at least 12.5-13v on the battery to start. New looking Wassel carbs, the nearside persists in flooding after tickling, despite microscopic cleaning and checking of the float components. ok after start up though.

Spitfire Mk4


a
#703257 - 07/29/17 3:23 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Re Carbs:

first thing is to check the float height. if this checks out. Make a small rig by mounting the float (say in vice by its drain plug) and a pipe with funel filled with fuel to the banjo end. Don't raise the funnel any higher than it would be had it been fitted to the bike with tank. (as fuel pressure will lift the float off its seat), if it stops the flow with a couple of mm from the top of the bowl then you can pretty much say that the float is working as it should and the issue could be the tickler is sticking on something.

(don't use water to test as it has a greater density than fuel)


beerchug
#703307 - 07/30/17 8:50 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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I'll proceed with the your check. Have you any recommendations on a type of handlebar mirror for this bike?


a
#703315 - 07/30/17 9:53 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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I use bar mounted mirrors, similar to what would have been used back in the day, they don't seem to vibrate any worse than anything else I have used but my motor is quite smooth.

Bar ended mirrors work well, but I don't like their asthetics or the fact your bars are suddenly a good inch plus wider on each end (makes it harder for getting around the garage) but each to their own.


beerchug
#703722 - 08/02/17 9:27 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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I think the problem I have is a bent centre stand, that's why it's fouling the silencer. See the pics of both sides. http://imgur.com/r8Ut5PU http://imgur.com/MAXfq4r

I set the float bowls up on the bench athough I used white spirit instead of petrol, hope it didn't make much difference. As you can see, the levels are too low, perhaps the seats on the Wassells have been set too high? I re-adjusted brackets so the float was almost level (at the front) and the fuel level would be about 6mm below. http://imgur.com/WQ7GlVi

Last edited by semprini; 08/02/17 9:29 pm. Reason: typo

a
#703733 - 08/02/17 10:47 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Found the correct fuel height here...

The correct fuel level for all Mark 1 Concentric carburetters is 0.21" plus or minus 0.040" below the top edge of the float bowl. Thus when the needle valve is being held shut by the tangs of the float, the level of the fuel will be between 0.17" to 0.24" (4.33mm to 6.35mm) from the top of the bowl.

The density of white spirit is 0.778, petrol is 0.71-0.77 and water is 1.00 g/cm3 so your pretty close with the white spirit. You might get a fraction more fuel height by using actual fuel but the difference may not be that great.

If you can move the float bowl seat (warm the bowl and using a drift (about 11mm) tap the bowl down till the float is at the right level. If it is well glued in you can bend the tangs but moving the seat is the better option.

The centre stand looks normal, but I need to check mine. Armours silencers are fatter than most. I've found the brituro silencers to be about the best available new. The right amount of back pressure and exhaust note.


beerchug
#703776 - 08/03/17 8:08 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Thank you for that. I think I'll test out the bike first and see how it runs, there's not a lot left of the season now and will have a closer measurement of the seats during the winter, assuming the carbs are operating ok for now.

The silencers are the originals. Some time in its history it's had a spill on the nearside which is why I suspect the stand might have been distorted. If I can't bend the footbar enough (in situ) to clear the silencer I think I'll remove it for closer examination and possibly straighten it in the vice if needed.


a
#703794 - 08/03/17 12:25 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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You may find that when at rest the stand doesn't touch the frame stop, I have a centre stand with the lug removed to create that clearance. So bending the arm may not help.


beerchug
#703977 - 08/04/17 9:52 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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I had a good look today and it appears to be touching the stops, Spring removal proved too daunting so I sprung down the footbar a tad and it now clears the silencer.

Wheel alignment, with the aid of axle stands and nylon line seems ok, equal gaps at the front tyre and the adjuster bolts about equal.

So now to more mundane problems. In the past someone must have caught their plastic leggings against the exhaust pipe leaving a hardened black patch. rather than rubbing with solvol I wonder if there's anything that might remove it.

Back in '67/8 a friend had a gold Lightning like yours, he had those braced moto-cross bars on it. before the city bit of the Sheffield Parkway was built, entry was via Manor Lane and he had a habit of screwing it up to 100mph in third along there! Those were the days.


a
#703983 - 08/04/17 10:13 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Originally Posted by semprini
I had a good look today and it appears to be touching the stops, Spring removal proved too daunting so I sprung down the footbar a tad and it now clears the silencer.

Wheel alignment, with the aid of axle stands and nylon line seems ok, equal gaps at the front tyre and the adjuster bolts about equal.

So now to more mundane problems. In the past someone must have caught their plastic leggings against the exhaust pipe leaving a hardened black patch. rather than rubbing with solvol I wonder if there's anything that might remove it.

Back in '67/8 a friend had a gold Lightning like yours, he had those braced moto-cross bars on it. before the city bit of the Sheffield Parkway was built, entry was via Manor Lane and he had a habit of screwing it up to 100mph in third along there! Those were the days.



There's very few roads you can do that on now. Sounds like he had a 65' bike for it to be gold.

The black patch you mention, I did that very thing on my 400/4, I'm resulting into replaceing the silencer because of it


beerchug
#704025 - 08/05/17 8:53 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Well well, I also had, in '76, a 400/4! Fitted it with Dunlop TT100 tyres and it handled beautifully, apart from giving it a tendency to weave above 75mph (then). Sold it for a CX500.


a
#704185 - 08/07/17 3:01 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Mark Z Online content
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Originally Posted by semprini
Apologies for delay in replying. I think the frame-loop switch bracket needs to come off which will allow the correct rod alignment, and (as gavin suggests), a stock switch and striker, although I notice that stock switches are around £50!!
Spitfire Mk4


Unless you're a stickler for originality, they make a universal brake switch that clamps to the passenger peg loop, and has a spring going forward that hooks into the original bracket that attaches to the brake pedal and also hits the stop post, and which has a hole in the end of it. (Sorry, no pics until I have time to get with a new picture Hosting site.) I've had one of these universal switches on my A65 for longer than I can remember, and it has never failed. The side panel covers most of it nicely.

Oh... I needed a little more length on the spring to reach the brake pedal bracket; this was accomplished with a snap-swivel (a fishing item, available in various sizes at any bait and tackle shop).


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
#704255 - 08/07/17 9:15 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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D'yer know, this crossed my mind a day or so ago, but you have now jogged my memory about the switch. I might have some swivels somewhere from my sea angling days.

The bracket is very neat, like a factory fitment, pity its in the wrong place. http://imgur.com/a/9p533


a
#704282 - 08/08/17 3:39 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Mark Z Online content
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Mark Z  Online Content
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Ok, my A65 doesn't have that flat lug on the frame where your switch mounts, nor does any A65 frame that I've seen. Well that's ok, it makes a nice mount for the switch, but:

You don't have the bracket that I'm talking about. I think you might have called it a "striker". It mounts to the two front holes in the brake pedal, and extends up to contact a stop post which fits into a hole in the frame (which you probably also don't have). The stop post has a threaded stud through it with a locknut, to adjust the brake pedal height. The "striker" also has a hole at the very top, above the stop post. This is where my spring (via the snap swivel) hooks. Your spring is attached directly to the brake pedal.

Here's the thing: Without that "striker" and stop post, the footrest then serves as the stop for the brake pedal. That kind of works, but there's no adjustment and it makes the brake pedal sit rather high in relation to the footrest.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
#704296 - 08/08/17 8:15 am Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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Yes Mark, I know which lever you meant, it's part no. 68-7052 which I'll have to buy (or make) one.

https://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/bsa/bsa/a50-a-a65/1968/category/297-swinging-arm

Just had a look and there is a 5/16" hole just above the s/arm shaft. Thanks for pointing out the adjuster arangement.


a
#704863 - 08/13/17 1:27 pm Re: BSA A50/65 Frame Alignment [Re: semprini]  
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semprini Offline
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Have sorted the brake rod problem by removing the bracket, which a previous poster said was for rear-sets, and fitted a universal switch. It'll do for this season anyway.

https://imgur.com/a/5APfN


Last edited by semprini; 09/13/17 2:15 pm.

a
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