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Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph #689466
03/26/17 5:21 pm
03/26/17 5:21 pm
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 56
chorley ,lancashire ,uk
chris l Offline OP
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chorley ,lancashire ,uk
So here i am again asking for help LOL,1964 Triumph 500 t100ss.

Dug it out for a ride this weekend , got to destination and the bike is pouring oil out of the breather, badly smoking Blue smoke and covering the back tyre in oil.

It appears to ride fine ,seems to have good compression.

Oil is returning to the oil tank at a good rate to any tips on where to start looking?

Here is a vid of the speed the oil exits the breather probbably 15 seconds run time got me this much oil/

thanks again in advance
[Linked Image]



[Linked Image]






Last edited by chris l; 03/26/17 6:12 pm.

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Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: chris l] #689503
03/26/17 9:31 pm
03/26/17 9:31 pm
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 292
Bristol England
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redrooster Offline
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Hi Chris,
No history on problems with the bike, how long was journey to the destination mentioned, how long was the bike sat before you did the fifteen second oil collection thing.
Newbie myself also but wow that is a lot of oil in fifteen seconds, hard to believe. Think logically.
Q,Where is oil stored and so where is all that oil coming from ?
Q, Where is the breather ?
Q What is the journey of the oil to the breather ?
Q, Why is the bike smoking ?
Q, What does the oil in the bottle smell like, any petrol smell?
Think wet sumping, breather, rings.
This is where I would start ( you need to understand the workings of the bike )but perhaps the more experienced here will tell me how wrong I am ( or not )


Last edited by redrooster; 03/26/17 9:36 pm. Reason: more info needed
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: redrooster] #689554
03/27/17 5:26 am
03/27/17 5:26 am
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 597
Great Southern Land
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In the photo you have your fuel tap on....do you always leave your tap on????

I am thinking that you got a heap of fuel gravity feed into your sump and this has basically flooded your bike........if this is the case I am surprised you didn't blow your bottom end - change your oil immediately.

Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: NickL] #689562
03/27/17 6:44 am
03/27/17 6:44 am
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Pleasant Hill, California USA
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TR7RVMan Online content
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Hi Chris, How are you running your breather tube? Is oil running out back of fender getting on tire?

Since oil is returning it's not wet sumping. After riding far oil in tank would be very low if not returning. But why so much smoke?

There is another breather thread. What happens if you do the blow test with valve adjuster cap removed?

At the bike swap meet this weekend I saw several cams with what I'd call a "roll pin" sticking out of intake cam breather hole that's next to right lobe. I'd not noticed that before. Why did Triumph install on some & not others?? What years were these cams?? I don't know. My hunch is it's an oil separator of sorts.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: TR7RVMan] #689563
03/27/17 6:47 am
03/27/17 6:47 am
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Pleasant Hill, California USA
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I've seen about that much oil come from many bikes that run good & don't smoke. I don't really know why. I've trying to figure that out also. Most often on start up after sitting, but occasionally on shut off.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: NickL] #689564
03/27/17 6:53 am
03/27/17 6:53 am
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Pacific northwest
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quinten Online confused
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1. Was the oil tank full when it went into storage ?
2. did you add any oil before riding ?
3. Do you have oil returning to the oil tank ?
4. Did you let the oil warm up before riding off ?


The first thing i would do is drain the sump , fill the oil tank , run the bike ... and see if the problem persists .


If you are lucky , the oil in the tank could have just leaked down slowly and with enough time in storage , wet sumped
A small leak that drains down over time is a nuisance you may choose to live with .
Just remember to drain the sump after storage and before starting .
The oil return side of the pump has twice the capacity of the pressure side ,
if its just an over filled sump , and you know the bike ,
the problem can self correct (without to much mess) and (without draining the sump) if the revs are keep down until the oil is warmed up .
(I wouldn't count on being this lucky though ... just make sure you have a problem before looking deeper for a solution )
... by draining the sump, filling the oil and running the bike again (a do over )

If the problem persists you have bigger issues .
Bad pump
Bad pump, seal
Bad non-return ball seating .
Bad crankshaft oil seal .
Bad oil pressure relief valve .
(Sometimes its more than one of these things .. or a combo ... like a bad pressure release causing the crank seal to invert .
allowing preasurized oil to spray against the flywheel and an excess amount oil is kept 'blendered' up in the crankcase and
not enough oil drops down into the sump to be picked up by the return pump )

.

Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: quinten] #689586
03/27/17 12:22 pm
03/27/17 12:22 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
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USA
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Keeping debris from the oil circuit is viewed as sport at my place. grin
Tiny bits between the oil pump's seat and ball lead to scavenge problems.
I once found a gnat wing in there!
Suggest cleaning the whole system, that means removing and flushing the oil tank and installing a return line oil filter( the norton type is good). Perhaps even new oil lines.
Nice bike BTW, how long have you owned it? HTH


66 TR6R Trophy
67 T120R Bonneville
68 BMW R60/US
69 T100R Daytona

Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: Dave M] #689612
03/27/17 5:05 pm
03/27/17 5:05 pm
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 56
chorley ,lancashire ,uk
chris l Offline OP
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chorley ,lancashire ,uk
Firstly thank you to everyone who has offered help.

redrooster ,think ill answer most of those in this thread.

Trident ,thats an old pic of the bike stopped took pic rode off.Tap is off when parked up so no fuel in the oil.the oil that came out has no odour of petrol.

Nick ,i will follow that advice and strip the pump ,but yes i get good flow back to the tank which speeds up when the bike is revved up.

Tr7 ,the breather pipe comes directly out of the bottom of the engine ,dropping next to the centre stand as in the video.Blow test? have you a link to that.

Quinten bike has been used but infrequently ,oil was in the tank ,Oil is returning to the tank ,no didnt warm up too much before setting off on the ride.Will drop all the oil and sump and try again

Dave i will strip and clean all i can easily access then report back

Once again thanks for all the advice.i will have a tinker and report back

Chris


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Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: chris l] #689628
03/27/17 6:45 pm
03/27/17 6:45 pm
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Posts: 515
Pleasant Hill, California USA
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TR7RVMan Online content
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Hi Chris, I can't get the vid to open no matter how I try.

Here's a link to the TR6 breather thread. http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=489613#Post489613

Keeping in mind these are positive displacement pumps the oil volume is fixed. The excess oil from feed pump comes out the pressure relief valve & into timing chest, running down into sump. Worn big ends will put oil into sump. They might...??? throw too much oil on intake cam. If crank bushing or feed seal is worn you usually have low oil pressure. Still no more oil gets into engine. It just takes a different route. Triumph matched pump output closely to needs of oil so the oil feed & return are closely matched with return being slightly more volume.

You need to start with a diagnosis. Don't take anything apart. Start motor & ride bike about 10+ miles. Park bike & let cool overnight. Then measure oil level in tank very carefully with a ruler. Record level. Do not disturb bike in any way. Check oil level in tank every day & record level. This will test pump feed plunger & check ball. That will show how much if any oil leaks into bottom of motor while motor is off. Do this test for at least a week. Shouldn't be a problem since you don't ride often. Record level if you know bike will set some weeks. Then measure before start up. Then you know for sure how much has gotten into sump while sitting.

The other post will show how to test return pump with a vacuum gauge. I expect your return is fine or while riding the oil level in tank will fall & that oil will end up in bottom of engine. Once oil is so deep the rods are hitting it motor will run odd & smoke will be very profuse & oil will almost continually run out breather hose. You may have some smoke, but no other symptoms so that's why return pump is ok. A worn or partially working return pump can visibly return, but volume is too low. Again after some miles the eng will fill with oil & show very low in tank & pour out breather etc.

I now see a hose?? hanging down near center stand. Is that the breather?

I have experience with 650s not so much 500s. However looking at shop manual it looks like engine breather should go up under seat & hook to a T near battery area. The T also hooks to oil tank vent. They the last leg of T, hose wraps inside rear fender & is open to street there so no oil gets on bike. The 650s are vented this way from new.
How is your oil tank vented now? Very important to have proper routing of vent system. In any case zip tie hose out of tire's path.

Too much oil in tank can send oil onto street, but I don't think on your bike tank is T'd to engine breather at this time.

Again don't take anything apart, do not change oil or drain sump until you do the oil level test. Go ahead & do the blow test to breather valve though just to see how it is. Then do the road test, then oil level measure test.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: Dave M] #689633
03/27/17 7:23 pm
03/27/17 7:23 pm
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Posts: 10,221
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Offline

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— The breather tube on a 1964 is a short (8" ish) piece of tube dropping the oil directly on the ground from in front of the transmission sprocket. It wasn't until later they ran the pipe up to the oil tank and back to the rear fender.

— The 1964 model uses a oil feed plain timing side bearing and there is no oil seal to invert.

— If the sump is truly filling the sump while the bike is in storage the feed side oil pump check ball is not seating. If the sump is filling up while the bike is running you could have problems on the return side.

— There are numerous reasons the sum can fill while running: Worn timing side main or rod bearings let more oil than normal fill the sump (common); the pressure relief valve can be stuck open all of the time (rare) usually caused by improper tightening; the return oil pick-up tube can be leaking air; engine blow-by by bad rings (rare) and yes, the return side of the pump not being efficient.

 If the timing side or rod bearings. or the pressure relief valve, are flooding the crankcase with oil it is possible the return side of the pump could be working, but unable to keep up with the increased flow.

If the feed side of the pump has a leak it will fill the sump while the bike is in storage and still work at a reduced level. It is a bit hard to comprehend, but a Triumph crankshaft is center fed and the oil will continue to flow because of centripetal action of the rotating flywheel. This is why they don't throw a rod when the timing side oil feed seal inverts.

This motor should have a tell-tale button on the pressure relief valve. This is a bit of a bother because there is no way to put a real pressure gauge on this motor. But if it is stuck out all of the time then you have your cause.

Also the button will tell you if you have feed side oil pressure. If it comes out while the engine is cold, but then retreats back as the oil warms up you could have loose bearing problems. It should come out, and stay out, all the way when the engine is warmed up. — If it doesn't it could be the oil's viscosity, a bad feed side oil pump or worn bearings.

Bad rings will cause this problem. Why I don't know, but it seems to have something to do with pressure build up in the crankcase. I have developed an aversion to removing the sump drain plug having seen so many bikes where the oil pump failed to return oil after it being removed. During an oil change a mere speck of dirt inadvertently getting into a "sterile" crankcase and up under the return side check ball. I would do it as a test.

Warm the engine to operating temperature with a short ride. Drain the sump, remove a rocker box cover (prepare for some oil blowing out of the rocker box) and run the motor at idle (with an occasional blip of the throttle) for a couple of minutes to see if the sump continues to fill up and blow out of the breather pipe. You can expect the occasional drop, but not a steady stream.

Good luck - nice bike!
History - looks like recent restoration - what was done to the engine?
John


Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: John Healy] #689634
03/27/17 7:26 pm
03/27/17 7:26 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,221
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Offline

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And that horse... I would love to see him at full 4 leg gallop...


Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: John Healy] #689640
03/27/17 8:08 pm
03/27/17 8:08 pm
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Scotland
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Frozennorth Offline
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If the bike has been standing a while, I expect this is oil which has drained down into the crankcase past the oil pump; usually caused by the feed side ball not seating too well. Usual cure is to remove the pump, clean it out and re-seat the ball to the body with a gentle tap. Also worth checking the primary chaincase level, if enough oil leaks through into the crankcase it can overflow through the drive side main bearing into the primary, you might find the level there a bit higher than normal!
Good luck,
JohnC


"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten"; Benjamin Franklin knew a thing or two..
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: Frozennorth] #689641
03/27/17 8:16 pm
03/27/17 8:16 pm
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John Healy Offline

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The primary on a 1964 500 is separated from the crankcase by a seal (70-3876). Excess oil in crankcase will not find its way into the primary.


Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: John Healy] #689642
03/27/17 8:36 pm
03/27/17 8:36 pm
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Frozennorth Offline
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Absolutely, if it's still there and not worn out after all these years... nice bike though!


"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten"; Benjamin Franklin knew a thing or two..
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: tridentt150v] #689807
03/29/17 4:58 am
03/29/17 4:58 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
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Originally Posted by tridentt150v
I am thinking that you got a heap of fuel gravity feed into your sump and this has basically flooded your bike........if this is the case [snip] - change your oil immediately.


+1

Most of the other posts deal with what I call "oil wet sump", that is to say, too much oil in the engine sump. That's an oil pump issue.

However, there is also "fuel wet sump" in which liquid from the fuel tank (petcocks ON or OFF), works it's way into the engine sump over time, where it dilutes the engine oil and exits the exact same portals looking (but not smelling) like engine oil. If this is the case, the engine oil simply needs changing IMMEDIATELY. No other engine repair is needed.

Installing new petcocks and the AMAL Viton-tipped float needle (from the Concentric, but also fits the Monoblok) will help prevent this re-occurrence.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: chris l] #690029
03/31/17 6:52 pm
03/31/17 6:52 pm
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Posts: 56
chorley ,lancashire ,uk
chris l Offline OP
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You guys are so knowledgeable its amazing.THANK YOU

sorry tr7tman but today i stripped cleaned everything easily accessible (before i read this),have also filled with fresh oil.

It ran ok with no oil gushsing from the breather ,but the big test will be a ride this weekend .

The breather does blow a little is that correct? but no oil was comming out of it on the start run today

will keep you all updated

Chris

Last edited by chris l; 03/31/17 6:53 pm.

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Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: chris l] #690045
03/31/17 10:31 pm
03/31/17 10:31 pm
Joined: Sep 2013
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quinten Online confused
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Quote
The breather does blow a little is that correct? 


Yes , if set up correctly ,
a timed portion of the pistons downstroke is 'vented'
Through the intake camshaft .
.

Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: quinten] #690149
04/01/17 8:26 pm
04/01/17 8:26 pm
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chorley ,lancashire ,uk
chris l Offline OP
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chorley ,lancashire ,uk
Originally Posted by quinten
Quote
The breather does blow a little is that correct? 


Yes , if set up correctly ,
a timed portion of the pistons downstroke is 'vented'
Through the intake camshaft .
.


thanks


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Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: chris l] #690236
04/02/17 5:42 pm
04/02/17 5:42 pm
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chorley ,lancashire ,uk
chris l Offline OP
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So after cleaning everything last week i went for a run today (pics to follow)

Bike ran great for approx 15 miles then all of a sudden smoke out the exhaust and the oil dropped out of the breather pipe.

Have just fitted a new oil pump and had another clean of what i could.I ran the bike for a couple on mins then dropped the sump plug .Quite a bit of oil came out of the sump again? but i am not sure how much it should hold?

Will re run it again this week and measure how much comes out of the sump,anyone know roughly what amount of oil should be in there?

I cant see anything obviously wrong.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


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Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: chris l] #690238
04/02/17 7:02 pm
04/02/17 7:02 pm
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scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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A cupful is normal in my 650, after I've parked up and the oil has had time to drain down from the higher parts of the engine.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: triton thrasher] #690247
04/02/17 7:49 pm
04/02/17 7:49 pm
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Bishop, Calif.
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desco Online content
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What size cup?


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: desco] #690249
04/02/17 8:09 pm
04/02/17 8:09 pm
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Originally Posted by desco
What size cup?



[Linked Image]


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: chris l] #690272
04/02/17 11:09 pm
04/02/17 11:09 pm
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North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
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Originally Posted by chris l
So after cleaning everything last week i went for a run today. Bike ran great for approx 15 miles then all of a sudden smoke out the exhaust and the oil dropped out of the breather pipe.


May I suggest oil was coming out all along, it wasn't until you stopped the bike that you noticed.

Originally Posted by chris l
Have just fitted a new oil pump and had another clean of what i could. I ran the bike for a couple on mins then dropped the sump plug. Quite a bit of oil came out of the sump again? but i am not sure how much it should hold? Will re-run it again this week and measure how much comes out of the sump, anyone know roughly what amount of oil should be in there?


Your shop manual should have all this info. Are you telling us you hope to maintain this bike without a shop manual ?

Originally Posted by chris l
I cant see anything obviously wrong.


You mean besides not having the maintenance manual and an oil filter.

Did you ever measure the vacuum of the return pump ?

Have you ever blown compressed air up from the pump through the return oil system ?

This is really starting to sound like one of 2 things...
► The sump pickup tube is missing or not at the correct depth. There is a specified exposed length for that tube.
► A blockage inside the return hose or return orifice within the oil tank, which is forcing most of the oil to return through the rocker feed. Where upon, a large percentage of the oil stays inside the engine. The oil system equivalent of Hotel California. Oil checks in, but it can never check out. There is a specified orifice diameter inside the tank for the oil return.

It's a simple system; that's why it's so reliable. This problem won't be fixed by asking questions on the internet and then supplying no measurements and only doing half the tests we request. You're going to need to be "old school" and actually get your hands dirty.

Best of luck. bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: RF Whatley] #690280
04/03/17 12:38 am
04/03/17 12:38 am
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God bless you Whatley.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Help again Excessive oil out breather 64 triumph [Re: chris l] #690301
04/03/17 4:43 am
04/03/17 4:43 am
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Pleasant Hill, California USA
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Chris, Are you saying new pump didn't help? Or did you not ride 15 miles with new pump? If not why not? Ride 15 miles & then see how it is.

Since you don't really know how much oil came out before you don't know if new pump fixed it or not.

Did old pump fail vacuum test or bench test? Did oil level hold in holes like shop manual says? Did you test new pump before install?

As Whatley correctly states, you cannot short cut anything. When problems arise you have to do a real diagnosis so you know what really is the problem(s). +1 as he states, a partially blocked return hose will cause this also. This is one part you might want to renew on principle. Also blow into tank fitting with mouth & hose to verify tube inside tank is clear. The return hole in tank line is about 1/8" so stick finger on it while you blow to feel volume.

Otherwise it's luck of the draw.

Diagnosis can be very time consuming & difficult, but it leads to a correct repair.

New aftermarket pumps may not be good from factory. You need to test new pump before install. So now that it's in, do the vacuum test so you know it's good.

Automatic transmission cooler hose is very good for oil lines on these old bikes. Available in the diameters we need at most auto parts stores. Not costly. Rocker feed hose connector you often need to get from bike shop though.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
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