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#683286 - 02/01/17 7:52 am Gearbox guru please  
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I had the old heap ('69 t120) jump out of 3rd gear the other day a few times so i took the box out and have found mainshaft 3rd is a 57-3858
the dogs are well hammered in it. It's never been a great box but i think it should be better than it is.
Looking at the parts books it seems there are numerous options around that time for gearbox parts....... the one most listed is a 57-3889 which has only 23 teeth as opposed to the 24 of the '3858.
Question do they interchange? (the layshaft gear is 22t but the number is stamped on the edge of the bloody thing and is illegible)
As the previous owner was a bit of a 'grilla i don't know if the fitted gear was correct anyway.
Gears i can identify are MS 1 ?16t. 2 T916. 3 57-3858
LS 1 T926 2 T1065 3 57-@#$%
Camplate is good as are selector forks etc.
Any ideas, other than putting a match to it appreciated.



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#683318 - 02/01/17 12:14 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Not a "guru" but familiar with the alternate gears in the A65. Since the shaft centre distant is constant a one tooth change requires cutting a special addendum since a nominal pitch diameter would require a different shaft spacing. So using a 23 tooth mainshaft with the matching layshaft gear for the 24 tooth would result in a lot of backlash. The other way around, the 24 tooth mainshaft with the matching layshaft gear for the 23 tooth mainshaft would bind.

#683320 - 02/01/17 12:41 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Hi NickL -
I am definitely not a guru, gearbox or otherwise, but during the two years it took me to work through a similar problem on my '69 T120R I collected some resources - including a couple of Triumph bulletins about '69 models jumping out of gear.

You can have a look at these resources here:

http://www.hermit.cc/tmc/om/manual.htm#gearbox

(See links to "Triumph Bulletin #8-59" and "Troubleshooting Bulletin Gearbox Excerpt" in the section "Jumping out of Gear").

My gearcluster had (has) a third gear that doesn't match what #7 said it should be, but that turned out to not be a problem.

The solution to my bike's jumping out of gear was to replace the
57-0408 Gearshift quadrant (Ref# 8 Fig. 9 Page 29 #7).

Actually, as it turned out I could have ground a bit OFF the downshifting "stop" on the quadrant and everything would have been fine. Why that became necessary after so many years and miles (66,000) I don't know, but letting the outside quadrant travel a little more when downshifting turned my cranky gearbox into a very nice, smooth unit. Note that Triumph Bulletin #8-59 suggests ADDING material to the other stop when the gearbox jumps out of 3rd when UPshifting.

For me the takeaway is that those two stops are critical to correctly operating the INNER quadrant (57-0397, Ref# 17 Fig.7 Page 25 #7) and therefore the camplate and fork shifters.

So, does your bike's gearbox jump out of 3rd after UP shifting, or DOWN shifting? Especially if it's one or the other, take a close look at the appropriate stop on that outside quadrant and you might find the problem.

Good luck! And be sure to let us know what fixed the problem when you succeed.


Bruce Miller
aka The Hermit
www.hermit.cc/tmc
#683359 - 02/01/17 7:30 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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David, Thank you, i thought this would be the case, IE. i must replace the gears as a pair.
(Despite 2 shops telling me otherwise.) The A65 box is a much easier box to set up on the bench as the camplate is integral and allows you to index through and check the 'dogging' engagement.
With the old trumpet, i have to keep inserting/removing the box.

Bruce, Thank you, I have been through the camplate indexing setup using my primitive method of a large phillips screwdriver 'up the plunger hole' whilst selecting gears and it seems to be ok.
The service bulletins you posted are very interesting and i think i may grind a little off the quadrant though as 3rd seems to be be a little tight and has never felt really good.
Once again it seems that there are several numbers for camplates although shops say the new ones fit all. Good news to know your gear numbers do not collate to the parts lists as well.....
By the way, bloody excellent post of yours, shame you weren't at Meriden writing manuals.

Thanks chaps, i'll let you know how i get on



#683397 - 02/02/17 6:44 am Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Well i've been having a look at a few things and would like to ask a couple of questions,

I set the mainshaft up in the cases with the selector fork and camplate in place, with a straightedge across the face to which i level the mainshaft 1st. (simulating the inner cover being in place) When 3rd gear is selected the engagement of the 3rd gear is well short of 'home' and it's no wonder the damn thing is jumping out of gear. The dogs are at least 2mm out.

My question is.....The gear fitted is a 57-3858 is this gear narrower than the T2378 that the book says should be the one used?
As i have now ordered the 57-3889/3990 pair are they of similar dimension to the t2378?
I have searched for physical sizes of these gears and have found nothing.
I can space the mainshaft across to compensate but it will mean i have to remove and re space the crank sprocket, so i'd rather not have to if the new gears are going to solve the problem.

Any help appreciated.



#683431 - 02/02/17 1:12 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Here's a link to some photos of gears in my '69 T120R. - maybe you can compare with your stuff.
www.hermit.cc/tmc/bb/2015/wtd_2/index.htm

There are also pics comparing new and original parts, including camplates. I fretted over camplate 'differences', but like your shop said, probably not a problem.

Originally Posted By NickL
When 3rd gear is selected the engagement of the 3rd gear is well short of 'home' and it's no wonder the damn thing is jumping out of gear. The dogs are at

least 2mm out.


It sounds like you may have located the problem, but it couldn't hurt to step back for a moment and answer one question. Ok, two questions.

1) Did the bike always jump out of 3rd as long as you've had it?

2) No matter whether it's right away or some time after you've shifted gears, does the gearbox pop out of gear only after you have shifted either up or down? Or does it pop

out of gear going both ways?

If the problem occurs exclusively after shifting up or shifting down, would that point to gears or dogs being the problem, or would it more likely indicate malfunction of a part

or 'part of a part' that works bi-directionally?

Ok, I'll quit, I'm up to four.


Bruce Miller
aka The Hermit
www.hermit.cc/tmc
#683465 - 02/02/17 6:56 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Thanks Bruce but i need the dimensions of the alternate gears as it's impossible to size them from photos.
I am pretty sure this is the problem as what's happened is the small amount of dog engagement has
chewed away the dogging and now it won't retain the gear. As the bloody stupid triumph mainshaft 1st gear is supplied only fitted to the shaft it means i may be up for one of those as well.
I'll see when i get the new gear pair, and probably move the mainshaft over by making a small spacer to run up against the bearing, about 2mm should do.



#683598 - 02/03/17 7:45 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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I'm not a gearbox guru by any stretch of the imagination but the T916/T1065 2nd gear combination and T926 1st gear layshaft were used until early 1969, suggesting you have an early 1969 gearbox. The 57-3889/57-3890 combination you've ordered is a late 1969-70 gear set. Triumph increased the layshaft spline size in late 1969. The 57-3890 layshaft 3rd gear may not be compatible with your layshaft.

Eric


1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS
#683611 - 02/03/17 10:07 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Eric, Thank you, i really wanted to hear that........oh well $%#@ happens.

I'll wait until i have the gears here and work my way through it then, no one mentioned anything about the layshaft splines. That firm deserved to go broke, what a great way to carry on eh?
I've also ordered a mainshaft selector fork as i think some of the movement may be lost in wear on that although it doesn't seem that bad.

I'll see when the bits are here.



#683627 - 02/04/17 12:14 am Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Yes, Triumph changed the gear surface finish in early 1969, necessitating a new batch of part #s. Then they changed the spline diameter a few months later and at the beginning of the model year they changed the 3rd gear ratio. That's 4 different gear sets in a few months. If you're lucky, whoever installed the 57-3858 mainshaft 3rd gear installed its 57-3860 layshaft mate and the big spline layshaft.

Eric



1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS
#683641 - 02/04/17 4:15 am Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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It's Monday today, i know, we'll change the gearbox chaps! We haven't done that for a few weeks!

(minutes from triumph boardroom meeting)



#683648 - 02/04/17 8:05 am Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Originally Posted By NickL
(minutes from triumph boardroom meeting)


Minutes from the BSA Group boardroom more like.

Triumph was part of the BSA Group and therefore not completely in control of its own destiny at that time. Decisions, including the reason for various dimensional changes made to the '69 gearbox components, were often made at a higher level (see 'Bonnie' by J R Nelson).

#683741 - 02/04/17 11:32 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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BSA, Triumph, whoever, makes no difference. I don't need to read a book about 'bonnies' to have a 'pop' at daft production procedures.



#683751 - 02/05/17 3:04 am Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Oh, those (B)loody (S)illy (A)uthoritarians !! Not you, Nick, the management drongos !

Last edited by Triless; 02/05/17 3:09 am. Reason: clarification
#683752 - 02/05/17 3:27 am Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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A question for you Stephen,,,, have you ever had the need to shim between the mainshaft and layshft sliding gears to improve things or are my selector forks worse than i thought?
I'm not very familiar with 650 trumpet boxes and i don't really know if it's bad or just how they are. Others i've ridden have been pretty similar, the 5 speeds being better.
I built this old thing up years ago and although not terrific, the box has been ok until recently, while it's too damn hot to ride at the moment i'm going to sort it out.



#683760 - 02/05/17 4:59 am Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Nick, most of my Triumph gearbox work has mostly been with T140 five speeders. Having said that, though, I have had a little experience with unit 500's ( disassembly, check, reassemble, but no problems) and with 650's, mainly'66 and ' 69 ( the same ).
These gearboxes were in good condition, so everything was OK. Plus I was lucky, I guess. There was no need for shimming, selection was fine, and this was a few years back, so maybe not as worn. I have not worked on a 1970 leaf spring indexed gearbox.
In 1969, at engine number CC 15546,the dimensional changes to the gearbox shaft running diameters and gear bore diameters were introduced. These are not to be mixed with previous.
I remember reading somewhere that previously, gearbox manufacture was done "the Meridan Way (!)". Then they decided to produce the components to the drawings !!!!!!!??

#683773 - 02/05/17 8:17 am Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: Triless]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted By Triless
Then they decided to produce the components to the drawings

I believe it was as a result of the MIL-TFD-1111 requirement.

Regards,

#683779 - 02/05/17 9:07 am Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: Stuart]  
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Ah, so thats what they called it !
According to John Nelson in "Bonnie", the " powers that be" decided that the gears and shafts were common to the triples, the gearbox components would be manufactured at Small Heath. This resulted in parts dimensions being altered after about thirty years !
Meriden should have amended the drawings years previously to put them in line with the many years of proven and accepted practice,but it was decided that the parts manufactured at Small Heath must be finished to the original drawings !
Unbelievable, really !( Actually, I hope Nick doesn't tell those one eyed BSA twin and Norton twin blokes any of this !)

Last edited by Triless; 02/05/17 9:14 am.
#683792 - 02/05/17 11:17 am Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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BSA at this point was starting to hemorage Pounds. The gears were just one of the efforts to homolagate production between the brands. It made little sense to have production of what would be the same part at two separate facilities that had the clearances derived from two different engineering practices.

With engine production of the triple done at Small Heath it made little sense to split production of what was the same gear set. Another example of this, and the confusion it would eventually cause, was the changes made to the rocker arms that were also made at Small Heath.

BSA didn't run over a financial cliff in 1972! It was more like tumbling down a gentle grade that started years earlier. All of these efforts were akin to "putting a finger in the dike". All blame doesn't rest on the shoulders of BSA management. US management in the name of the late Peter Thornton's two year attack on the AMA's national number one racing plate went a long way to finish BSA off. No "stone was left unturned" and no dollar left unspent.
John


#683847 - 02/05/17 7:11 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Gentlemen;
I couldn't really give a monkey's about the political and social economic history history of Triumph and BSA, they are both long dead and gone, which will probably be the case with me before i get this bloody 'box sorted.
Stephen,The gearbox is a 4-speed unit '69 with spring plunger not leaf spring, i was rather hoping you had done some work on these as you are a Triumph fan. The 500 box is a scaled down a65 box or scaled up c15/tiger cub/terrier box so i am familiar with the construction and things to look for with those. What i was getting at is although i've put several of these together over the years, as with a lot of these old heaps one tends to do it by 'feel' I learn't with A65's that once you started getting power from the engine, the gearbox was crap unless assembled in a manner that would never have been done at the factory. What i am asking is what were the assembly tolerances like? IE play on the sliding gears within the selector forks. No mention of acceptable clearances is given in any manual, same with gear dimensions. How fussy do i need to be?
I can give lists of what clearances i have, how much lateral movement on shaft when gears engaged etc etc. But if all this is not required as it makes no difference correcting or reducing them why bother?



#683850 - 02/05/17 8:10 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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NickL,
No need to be horses a**. I lot of people do like to hear the history of these old turds. I am one of them. Especially when it explains some of the mystery and mystic of otherwise senseless changes.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#683852 - 02/05/17 8:23 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Fair enough, but knowing the in and outs of what colour socks mr Turner wore, doesn't really help with my original post. (my obtuse/cynical sense of humour doesn't bode well here anyway)

Signed
A Horses A##

Last edited by NickL; 02/05/17 8:25 pm.


#683864 - 02/05/17 10:08 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Nick, my four speed experience was in conjunction with engine builds for other people, and as I said, the boxes were in generally good condition. I would say clearances were generous, and in line with advice I had recieved, I checked for the usual things, such as bluing on selector forks and tracks in gears, worn selector plate slots, and fork guide pin rollers ( the last two would cause lost movement),and, obviously, worn and rounded dogs .Much in line with what Bruce has previously said.
Wear in the third gear dogs wouldn't be helped with generous clearances and the attrition of age.
Simply put, I never have needed to shim. But an instance I heard about a hard ridden 650 with the problem you are experiencing was due to worn dogs, but being a couple of years earlier than yours , replacement wasn't a drama ! And as far as I know, that fixed the problem.

#683866 - 02/05/17 10:33 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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Thanks Stephen, I think maybe i'm being too fussy, but i've put a 12 thou shim on the mainshaft where it is pulled up on the bearing and 22 thou between the 3rd-2nd gears, this is with the gears that come out of it and the old fork. I also put a new RHP bearing in but that wasn't really needed. I would now pass this as an acceptable assembly, the dogs engage well and the free play is much reduced.
When the new gears and fork turn up, i'll see how it looks with those. I have a pair of the fork rollers coming as well.
As for the change quadrant, it was actually over-travelling on downward shifts slightly, so a dab of braze and a file are to be done today, it needs about 25 thou (tested with a cut piece of feeler stuck to the case) to get it spot on.



#683939 - 02/06/17 1:31 pm Re: Gearbox guru please [Re: NickL]  
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OK after typing all this in the post disappeared for no apparent reason after a half hour of typing. I will give it one more go as I am ignoring customers to do this.
I promised my self that I would not get caught up in this as the answer is not straight forward.

Transmissions of this era have several conditions:

Shaved and non-shaved gears.
Stepped and non-stepped shafts.
Gears in two conditions to fit the stepped and non-stepped shafts.

The non-stepped lay shaft has a major shaft diameter of 1.123" to 1.1225".
The stepped lay shaft has a major diameter of 1.123" to 1.1225" and a minor shaft diameter of 1.1190" to 1.1185"

The non stepped main shaft has a major diameter of 0.9985" to 0.9980".
The stepped main shaft has a major diameter of 0.9985" to 0.9980" and a minor shaft diameter of 0.9945" to 0.9940"

Non-splined gears bore diameter are the same for both conditions.
Splined gear's bores vary to be compatible with their respective stepped or non-stepped shafts.

The T916 main shaft 2nd small bore (stepped shaft) used up to early 1969.
The 57-3858 is an alternative for T917 replaced by the 57-3858 up to early 1969. It was used with 57-3860 (22T) lay shaft 3rd for the stepped shaft.
The 57-3858 (24t) can be replaced with 57-3889 (23T) main shaft 3rd + 57-4155 non-stepped lay shaft + 57-3890 lay shaft 3rd (22t). These three must be used as a set when replacing the 57-3858.

It is obvious that you cannot fit a splined gear for a stepped shaft on a non-stepped shaft. Less obvious is fitting a splined gear for a non-stepped shaft on a stepped shaft. This is going to cause all sorts of shifting problems.

The gears you listed are all for a non-stepped condition (up to early 1969) so fitting non-stepped gears could cause you problems.

Classic black socks is my guess...


Last edited by John Healy; 02/06/17 1:48 pm.

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