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#681359 - 01/14/17 8:46 pm BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START  
Joined: Sep 2015
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FRANKCLOCK Offline
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FRANKCLOCK  Offline
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NSW SOUTH COAST AUSTRALIA
Before things get too bad can someone give me some reasons why my mates bike wont satrt
My A65 goes 1st kick!!

He purchased the bike in restored condition !!!
The major problem is we cannot start it & keep it running, when it finally starts it stops as soon as the motor is put under load
it came originally with a Boyer fitted, it started but cut out under load, NEW COIL FITTED, when it stopped there was no spark with new & old coil
WASSAL ELECTRONIC IGN FITTED as well as new REGULATOR RECTIFIER now very hard to start but spark is always there BUT STILL CUTS OUT UNDER LOAD WHEN FINALLY GETS STARTED, the IGN switch replaced with toggle switch still no joy, somehow I think it must be something silly but I am at a loss too know why
THE STRANGE BIT
The previous owner told my mate that when it was rebuilt it was hard to start so he fitted a new carburettor & it started at once,I really dont think this was the problem .There is heaps of compression & when it stops it just cuts out suddenly
all help will be greatly appreciated

Last edited by FRANKCLOCK; 01/14/17 8:56 pm.
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#681360 - 01/14/17 9:58 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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Brian L Offline
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Louisiana
If you are sure it's not a carb issue, it sounds like the timing may be off. I had a Boyer on a victor and eventually changed to a Pazon and had much better results. If the timing is off, it will be hard to start and could misfire at higher rpms. Relook at the timing.

#681366 - 01/14/17 11:26 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: Brian L]  
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FRANKCLOCK Offline
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NSW SOUTH COAST AUSTRALIA
Thanks for the reply
This is the second electronic ign to be fitted
The Boyer was new & the bike has done no miles & the Wassel is also new the timing set as per instructions, its a bit hard to get it wrong
new carb is fitted I even took one off my A65 which I new was set correct but still no good

#681373 - 01/15/17 4:15 am Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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quinten Online content
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quinten  Online Content
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Pacific northwest

It could be a battery issue ,
What is the voltage reading at the coil ...

#681374 - 01/15/17 4:20 am Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
Joined: Dec 2004
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kommando Online content
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Joined: Dec 2004
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Scotland
Have the timings been checked with a strobe, the initial settings can be off by some amount.

#681380 - 01/15/17 5:13 am Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: quinten]  
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FRANKCLOCK Offline
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NSW SOUTH COAST AUSTRALIA
quinten Thanks
you could be the best idea so far
the bike was rebuilt with new wiring harness, the voltage was checked at the battery at 12 1/2 volts as we cannot get it to run the charging rate cannot be checked
when we got it running once it could be ridden along the road fine but as soon as the throttle was opened putting a load on the motor it stopped & would not start again
there was plenty of fuel in the bowl
I will try the voltage at the coil when ign is on
thanks

Last edited by FRANKCLOCK; 01/15/17 5:18 am.
#681381 - 01/15/17 5:16 am Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: kommando]  
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FRANKCLOCK Offline
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NSW SOUTH COAST AUSTRALIA
when we first fitted the new ign I checked with a strobe & it was close but the thing is harder to start & if it fires it only goes for a few seconds then stops & refuses to start again

#681398 - 01/15/17 7:38 am Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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Sydney Australia
First check the polarity.
Should be pos earth.
Very easy for new owners to pop the battery in backwards.

Next get an inline spark tester and fit it to the plug.
Watch it .
If it continues to flash but the engine is not firing you have a fuel related problem.
If it stops flashing exatly the same time as the engine dies you have an ignition problem.

Or you can go one better and get a color tune so you can not only see the spark, but also the colour of the flame.
The wron cut away can kill an engine stone dead the instant you touch the throttle.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#681439 - 01/15/17 1:38 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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ducati2242 Offline
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County Durham
You say it will start and run but stops and wont restart . Have you checked the valve clearances are not too tight.

#681449 - 01/15/17 3:01 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: ducati2242]  
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LarryLebel Online content
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Canada
This seems like a fuel issue to me. Are you tickling the carburetor at initial start up and the cold engine restart? Have you checked the fuel level in the float bowl?

#681455 - 01/15/17 3:30 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: BSA_WM20]  
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FRANKCLOCK Offline
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NSW SOUTH COAST AUSTRALIA
BSA M20 thanks for the reply

the battery is connected to pos earth
we are struggling to get it to run to do any spark testing

float level checked as I mentioned a carb from my A65 was fitted & it failed to work so electrics are my main thought

Today will try another battery in the hope the NEW fitted battery somehow has an internal problem that causes an internal short !!!! now we are grabbing at straws

MR M20 could you pm me with your contact phone number your pm box seems to be full
thanks

#681487 - 01/15/17 7:16 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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Mitch Offline
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assuming that the valve timing is correct and the clearances are in spec, I think electrical is the issue. I put the Boyer on half a dozen unit singles and all worked great once the timing was dialed in. BUT, they run erratic when the voltage is not steady, and they need about 11 volts available as a minimum. if you have the stock rectifier and zener then you are positive ground. if you have a Pod or something else for a reg/rec, you could be either polarity. I would double check all those things first, and maybe disconnect the rectifier & run only off the battery for testing

#681496 - 01/15/17 9:12 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: Mitch]  
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FRANKCLOCK Offline
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NSW SOUTH COAST AUSTRALIA
Thanks mate
a new regulator /rectifier was fitted as well as a new coil
this afternoon unless it gets above 30 degrees I will try another battery as well as a direct lead from battery to coil

if not there is a big ocean next to me maybe me or the bike will be thrown in !!!!!

#681541 - 01/16/17 10:40 am Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
Joined: Nov 2011
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koncretekid Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
Before you toss that into the sea, go back to basics.
Get a compression gauge and check compression kicking it over with the throttle wide open; should be around 125 psi, I believe (haven't got my B44 here to check). Make sure valves are closing without hanging up. Also, make sure you've got the correct pushrod on the correct rocker (outer pushrod goes to the intake valve.)
Hook up battery only and check the Boyer wiring diagram again because if you're using negative ground vs. positive, the wiring is different. Use a new battery and a new spark plug and check with the plug out but well grounded. You should also be able to get a spark at the plug by just cycling the switch, or by kicking it over.
Motor should start and run even if ignition timing is plus or minus 10, but would probably kick back if too far advanced. Valve timing even isn't that critical if within 1 tooth (to get it started and running up and down the road.) You should be able to get some idea if your ignition timing marks are close by just using a small screwdriver on top of piston as the piston comes up on top dead center where marks should line up about 30 prior (you presumedly used the pointer and mark on the rotor to set up the Boyer? And in the correct counter clockwise hole in the Boyer stator?)
Make sure that there is sufficient fuel flow to the carb. Removing float bowl and then opening tap should reveal any issues with that (catch the fuel in a suitable container).
You did take the condenser out of the circuit, as it's not required, and on some B44s is not on the points plate but somewhere under the seat. I would also leave out the capacitor as it's not needed with a good battery.

So if you have good compression, spark near the right time, and gas, it should start with the right starting procedure - - flooded carb but throttle closed on the throttle stop - -which you may have to adjust a bit on cold starting. If it then starts but won't run, it's usually the wrong needle in the carb or some other carb issue. When it does start and run, go back and check the timing with a strobe and reset the valve lash.

Good luck.


Life's uncertain - go fast now!
#681572 - 01/16/17 3:45 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: koncretekid]  
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FRANKCLOCK Offline
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NSW SOUTH COAST AUSTRALIA
Thanks everyone for your replies
most all the ideas you have given me have been looked at
yesterday another battery was fitted & tried with no change
I still believe it is an electrical problem
Ill start at the beginning
the bike was purchased as a rebuilt restored bike
when it was first started it smoked badly but started, after fixing a couple of issues it was ridden round the block with no issues until after about 1 kilometer it then stopped & would not start when we got it home there was no spark, after talking to others the coil was blamed so a new one purchased, still no different it would start & run but stop after a few mins the no spark so another ign was purchased now there is spark all the time & when it does start it stops as soon as put under load, but now it fires but wont keep running
so I would say valve timing etc is fine

If we could find someone in the Sydney Australia area who would be willing to have a go at it I would be greatful,
the owner has spent a lot of money buying this so another expense will not be a problem
ANYONE WILLING TO GET IT GOING
Thanks

#681573 - 01/16/17 3:51 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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Lannis Online content
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Central Virginia
I would at least stick a compression gauge on it. The symptoms you describe could be caused by a valve running at 0 valve lash, which will make it stick open as soon as the engine gets warm.

Can you tell the list the current valve clearances and the compression hot and cold, throttle open?

Lannis


OK, I admit it, I'm addicted to brake fluid.

But I can stop any time I want.
#681574 - 01/16/17 3:52 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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Rokplo Offline
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Paris, France
As the bike has been rcently rebuilt, did you think to check if the push rods disposition where not inverted ? I mean opening and closing the the wrong valves at wrong moment ? I dont know the 441, but on some bikes it's possible to do that mistake, and it results in a bike with compression, spark, good timing, but no running ....


BSA A65 1962
#681575 - 01/16/17 3:54 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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kommando Online content
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Scotland
As it ran for 1km its not the pushrods being the wrong way round, an easy mistake to get them wrong way round be made but not this time.

#681578 - 01/16/17 4:13 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: kommando]  
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LarryLebel Online content
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Canada
and, since it starts but won't run for long suggests its not an electrical or ignition problem. I would look at the carb. Maybe running out of fuel due to a blocked petcock or fuel line.

#681588 - 01/16/17 5:45 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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Tridentman Online content
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New Jersey USA
Blocked gas tank cap vent?
Crap in carb?---clean thoroughly and especially pilot jet using #78 drill and plenty of carb cleaner to flush everything through.
Best of luck!

#681590 - 01/16/17 5:46 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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Shane in Oz Online content
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Originally Posted By FRANKCLOCK
If we could find someone in the Sydney Australia area who would be willing to have a go at it I would be greatful,
the owner has spent a lot of money buying this so another expense will not be a problem
ANYONE WILLING TO GET IT GOING
Thanks

Yeah, give me a call and we can work out a good weekend. PM me if you don't have my mobile number close at hand.

#681593 - 01/16/17 6:00 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: Shane in Oz]  
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koncretekid Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
One other thing I thought of. You said you switched carbs with the one from your A65 which should be close enough to run. But, did you switch the whole carb or take the easy way out and just switch the carb body leaving the top, slide, and needle from the existing carb? Because it could have the wrong needle in it.
Tom


Life's uncertain - go fast now!
#681601 - 01/16/17 7:04 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: koncretekid]  
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FRANKCLOCK Offline
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FRANKCLOCK  Offline
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NSW SOUTH COAST AUSTRALIA
Tom
You are trying hard but I did use everything from my carb
I have never professed to know about bike electrics so it needs someone who knows electrics & has a strong right leg
As I mentioned in an earlier post the previous owner could not get it started so fitted a new carb & he said it went straight away I think somewhere during him changing carbs the wiring/ electrical issue could have been moved about
looking at some other issues we have found with the bike it appears things are not as good as they seemed
I told my mate to buy an A65 !!

#681647 - 01/17/17 7:41 am Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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koncretekid Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
Originally Posted By FRANKCLOCK

I told my mate to buy an A65 !!


Now that's a bit extreme! What he really needs is one of each. Take the A65 out for the highway, and the B44 up into the hills.

Tom


Life's uncertain - go fast now!
#681666 - 01/17/17 12:19 pm Re: BSA 441 VICTOR WONT START [Re: FRANKCLOCK]  
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Roadwarrior Offline
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It's got to be electrical. Load test the battery first. Take the battery voltage, then turn on all the lights and see how fast the voltage goes down. As mentioned a Boyer will not fire if the battery is below 11 volts, and it will not fire under a load if the battery is at 11.5 volts. My old B44 did exactly what yours is doing, and it was the battery.

The rectifier/zener regulator could also be bad. I have had a few of these new ones that were crap.

Pull the tank, and double check all the wiring. You could have a minor short somewhere that doesn't show up until the motor is drawing the majority of the current. Good luck. Don't give up the Victor, its one of the best BSA's out there.


Bob


73 Triumph T140 Main Ride
70 Bonnie
67 BSA West Coast Hornet

56 Chevy

Who are the brain police?



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