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A65 Timing side bearing conversion #635634
01/18/16 1:26 am
01/18/16 1:26 am
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 74
Rangiora, New Zealand
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Mito Offline OP
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Rangiora, New Zealand
Hey Everyone, new to this site as I have acquired a 71 A65FS. Bit of a barn find but I know it has the death knock so surgery is required on the bottom end. I have searched many posts on the bearing conversion but some are quite dated so enquiring if we have arrived at a set up that is industry std now. I know my way around Triumphs so have approached this issue of making the BSA bottom end just like a Triumph. T120's have a roller on the DS and ball on the TS. T150's are the reverse with a ball bearing on the DS so I make the assumption that a ball bearing on the DS will handle the load and locate the crank, just a simple matter of getting oil down the end of the crank on the TS. A timing side roller bearing without the ball thrust component is therefore quite simple. Before I go to far down this design, is there sufficient room to machine circlip grooves in the DS case to locate the bearing as per T150??. This bike is not a racer but a open road plodder so not getting carried away. Suggestions and responses appreciated.


70 Rob North Rocket 3
71 T150
71 A65 Firebird
04 Buell Firebolt
08 Buell Ulysses
1974 Honda SL 125
75 Honda 125 Elsinore
75 Honda XL 350
84 Ducati 600 TTF2
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Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #635643
01/18/16 6:34 am
01/18/16 6:34 am
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 215
netherlands
L
lemans Offline
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netherlands
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=477561#Post477561

might help in your decision

no there's not enough room to machine a circlip-groove in the DS main casing.
IMO the std BSA axial setup is adequate
regards A

Last edited by lemans; 01/18/16 7:00 am.
Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #635674
01/18/16 11:44 am
01/18/16 11:44 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
M
Mr Mike Offline
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Cape Carteret, NC
Mito,
The "death knock" you mention may be nothing more than end play getting excessive by a worn thrust washer or improper set up by PO. If you are just making a daily rider there is an option that is quite easy and that is to convert the drive side to a ball bearing (no machining)as was done on earlier models and then refurbish the bush if necessary. Several on this forum have done this including myself. The ball on the DS will locate the crank adequately and the thrust washer can go in the bin. Those inch series bearings are still available by other manufacturers. I guess when everything is said I would prefer the Triumph set up over a BSA but that's a lot of work to convert.

The plain bearing TS journal on the BSA is adequately sized if you set it up correctly and you have adequate oil pressure. I am sure you have read the oil pressures woes on this site by the owners of A series twins. That's fixable too.

Good luck and let us know your progress.

Mr Mike

Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mr Mike] #635706
01/18/16 3:27 pm
01/18/16 3:27 pm
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,179
Sydney, Oz
S
Shane in Oz Online content
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Shane in Oz  Online Content
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,179
Sydney, Oz
Originally Posted by Mr Mike
Mito,
The "death knock" you mention may be nothing more than end play getting excessive by a worn thrust washer or improper set up by PO.

That's a good point. Loose magnets in the alternator rotor can cause a really bad knock as well, so that's also worth checking.

Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mr Mike] #653227
05/18/16 5:51 am
05/18/16 5:51 am
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 74
Rangiora, New Zealand
M
Mito Offline OP
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Mito  Offline OP
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Rangiora, New Zealand
Hi, got bottom end apart. The death knock turned out to be about 1/4" of up and down clearence on the DS conrod. No surprises there!!!!


70 Rob North Rocket 3
71 T150
71 A65 Firebird
04 Buell Firebolt
08 Buell Ulysses
1974 Honda SL 125
75 Honda 125 Elsinore
75 Honda XL 350
84 Ducati 600 TTF2
Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #653304
05/18/16 4:40 pm
05/18/16 4:40 pm
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,179
Sydney, Oz
S
Shane in Oz Online content
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Shane in Oz  Online Content
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S

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,179
Sydney, Oz
Originally Posted by Mito
Hi, got bottom end apart. The death knock turned out to be about 1/4" of up and down clearence on the DS conrod. No surprises there!!!!

That can't be good.

The sludge trap is probably chock a block full of hardened mixture of oil, dust and fine metal particles which cut off oil flow to the drive side. Clean that out very thoroughly, then clean it again smile

There's also a reasonable chance that the timing side bush and / or the timing side crankshaft main journal is worn as well, so mic those up thoroughly in a number of spots to check for wear, ovality or taper.

Other than that, the drive side crankpin is almost certainly scored and will need to be reground.

Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #653323
05/18/16 6:26 pm
05/18/16 6:26 pm
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 151
wales uk
R
richiedan40 Offline
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Posts: 151
wales uk
There is on line , an article by some guy , who did his own TS needle bearing conversion with a better oil feed . He used an available skf needle roller and combined a small roller. He gives the numbers on his video and also a step by step tutorial. For the life of me I cant remember the site address. you may want to do a few searches , but it was very good.
personally , I see nothing wrong with the original bush , I had mine upgraded , a retainer was machined into the crank case to stop the bush spinning and a modified bush made to suit the crank ,all done at SRM.
If you use detergent oil and change it every 2000 miles , oh , and fit an external filter , you should not get any problems with the TS bush.
I would fit new rods if its been banging away that badly.
The big one for me is......take your time , don't rush it , itll pay dividends.
All the best.
http://bsa-a10.hailwood.com/a65conv.html
found it !


1969 BSA A65 Lightning
1994 moto guzzi California
Triumph sprint GT
1971 BSA B50 Victor special
1968 BSA B44 SS
Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #653501
05/20/16 5:51 am
05/20/16 5:51 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,119
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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Posts: 4,119
argyll. scotland, uk
I will attempt to summarize various end float / bearing options here with a few pros and cons.

First off there isnt enough room to fit a triumph type ball bearing on the TS.

The drive side can be fitted with the older ball type mains to contain end float, however this will shorten the life of the mains since balls cannot take the same radial loads as rollers. BSA went to rollers because of this.

The timing side can be fitted with a needle or a needle ball combo.
The needle ball combo and needle only, allow the oil supply to be rerouted , the TS main supply is blanked and an end feed is created by creating a new oil way to feed a new oil seal let into the timing chest.This was pioneered by Devimead ( later to become SRM) and others and is now a very well tried and tested fix. The secondary bonus here is that the big ends get more oil, needles are happy with drips.

Using a plain needle TS ,end float can be controlled with shims , as stock, simple and easy if set up correctly, or, a 3rd main bearing , ball type can be fitted to an outrigger plate over the stator mounts primary side, a special rotor nut with a sleeve locates the end of the crank in the new bearing. Useful extra support, but a one off, Mark Parker has kindly posted drawings of this somewhere on this board. This also needs correct shimming to set the crank position.

In the SRM / Devimead commercial fix, the crank position is set by a one off bearing inner sleeve fitted over the machined down TS journal, the length of this brg inner section sets the crank position.
The ball section of the bearing is outboard, it is retained by a spit cage , the outer part of the cage being retained by the crank pinion set up. This must be made to fit the motor in question.

Being in the antipodes brings a punitive freight element to getting the SRM fix.

The oil feed to the crank can be arranged externally with a piece of brake pipe tapped into the OPRV chamber zone, leading to a new end feed seal chamber simply constructed in the well over the crank end. This minimises alloy welding and machining. Then its up to you if you use the combo brg or a plain needle and shims .


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: gavin eisler] #653534
05/20/16 10:07 am
05/20/16 10:07 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,008
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,008
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
I will attempt to summarize various end float / bearing options here with a few pros and cons.

First off there isnt enough room to fit a triumph type ball bearing on the TS.

The drive side can be fitted with the older ball type mains to contain end float, however this will shorten the life of the mains since balls cannot take the same radial loads as rollers. BSA went to rollers because of this.

The timing side can be fitted with a needle or a needle ball combo.
The needle ball combo and needle only, allow the oil supply to be rerouted , the TS main supply is blanked and an end feed is created by creating a new oil way to feed a new oil seal let into the timing chest.This was pioneered by Devimead ( later to become SRM) and others and is now a very well tried and tested fix. The secondary bonus here is that the big ends get more oil, needles are happy with drips.

Using a plain needle TS ,end float can be controlled with shims , as stock, simple and easy if set up correctly, or, a 3rd main bearing , ball type can be fitted to an outrigger plate over the stator mounts primary side, a special rotor nut with a sleeve locates the end of the crank in the new bearing. Useful extra support, but a one off, Mark Parker has kindly posted drawings of this somewhere on this board. This also needs correct shimming to set the crank position.

In the SRM / Devimead commercial fix, the crank position is set by a one off bearing inner sleeve fitted over the machined down TS journal, the length of this brg inner section sets the crank position.
The ball section of the bearing is outboard, it is retained by a spit cage , the outer part of the cage being retained by the crank pinion set up. This must be made to fit the motor in question.

Being in the antipodes brings a punitive freight element to getting the SRM fix.

The oil feed to the crank can be arranged externally with a piece of brake pipe tapped into the OPRV chamber zone, leading to a new end feed seal chamber simply constructed in the well over the crank end. This minimises alloy welding and machining. Then its up to you if you use the combo brg or a plain needle and shims .


I've seen some old race motors done in the same way ( my old man has an A7 bottom end like this) using the brake pipe near the oprv.

The hailwood link above is one I'm not keen on. I can't see the point in drilling the oil pump to feed the crank, when the oil pump is feeding only the crank anyway, but via the OPRV,


If the bush is done correctly then it will give many years good service.

For the needle roller there are two needle bearing sizes. SRM/devimead use the larger of the two. The only in the hailwood link is the smaller. From memory the SRM bearing is NKIB5104, but would have to check my notes.

Important note ( as this has cost me a couple of new needle bearings and engine strips to boot)

If using the knib bearing, the crank case is machined to take the bearing. My bike was done by devimead originally and the machining of the case was done so that it was stepped (not opened up the complete 55mm all the way down so that the bearing had a stop)

When fitting the nkib bearing which is 30mm deep, you need to machine that deep, however bearing in mind that using the TS to lock end float, the deeper the bearing the further pulled through the crank is.
Most importantly is that the grinding of the journal is taken back to the pork chop area. On my original crank this was done. On my replacement crank a 020" lip was left. Without noticing this I destroyed 2 nkib bearings as it crushed in the cases. I since fitted a needle roller without any end float control with was narrower and I control end float at the drive side.


beerchug
Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #653573
05/20/16 2:19 pm
05/20/16 2:19 pm
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,882
Elburn, Ill. USA
I
Irish Swede Offline
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,882
Elburn, Ill. USA
Erwin "Smitty" Smith, BSA dealer in Rock Island, Illinois, also did the needle bearing TS conversion.
In 1984 I saw an A65 crankcase and crank on his work bench undergoing this conversion.

He was an old-time INDIAN dealer, later sold BSA and was a sponsor of riders who raced both brands.

He has since passed away, but I wonder: can the current owner of his shop (BMW, Kawasaki) still do the BSA oil-feed conversion job?

Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Irish Swede] #654462
05/27/16 4:51 am
05/27/16 4:51 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 728
angeles city, rp
J
jaycee Offline
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Posts: 728
angeles city, rp
it seems to me that frank diehl was do that at classic cycle works. classicycleworks@aol.com

Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #654470
05/27/16 6:40 am
05/27/16 6:40 am
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 820
Brisbane, Australia
BrizzoBrit Offline

Life member
BrizzoBrit  Offline

Life member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 820
Brisbane, Australia
Cycletorque in NZ did mine, but I'm not making a recommendation. There were aspects of quality that I wasn't happy with. They might be worth having a chat to. Used a NA49/32 which is fine. Also a 'screwed-on' oil block which I was dubious about but is OK. NickL will recommend not welding the inner timing cover because of distortion. For oil block see thread: http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...;Main=66195&Number=615665#Post615665

This approach with a needle roller uses the standard BSA end-float control setup. The SRM approach is more refined but much more complicated. I've got 27000 miles on this bottom end now. Starting to feel like the end-float needs checking.

I did this conversion because I wanted to get a lot of use out of the bike. I wouldn't do it for a bike that doesn't get used frequently.


Cheers
Ray


BSA 1969 A65F
BSA 1966 A65H
Triumph 1968 T120
Kawasaki A1R
& too many projects!
Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #654635
05/28/16 2:39 pm
05/28/16 2:39 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,962
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Posts: 12,962
Central Virginia
There's a timely article in this month's "RIDER" magazine featuring BSAOCSC co-founder Don Danmeier and his BSAs.

Don rode his OIF Lightning two-up from California to the East Coast three times, once to the 2006 BSA International rally.

He has 70,000 miles on the motor, and it still has the factory-original timing-side bush; he recently checked the end-float and it's still <.003". Don credits an oil filter and regular oil changes with quality 20W-50 oil.

That's the formula for success in ANY BSA motor!!

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #654664
05/28/16 11:41 pm
05/28/16 11:41 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,849
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
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Posts: 3,849
ca, us
My '70 A65 went round trip from Minnesota to Long Island New York (three days each way) and from Minnesota to Banff with no problems with the lower end. I only rebuilt once when I got it. They do last if you build it right and change oil regularly. Today there are filters small enough to mount on the frame which extend the life more.

Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #678916
12/25/16 10:39 pm
12/25/16 10:39 pm
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 74
Rangiora, New Zealand
M
Mito Offline OP
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Mito  Offline OP
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Rangiora, New Zealand
Hey Everyone, thanks for all of the responses. I have used the xmas break to complete the motor strip as Im awaiting bits for the frame etc. As mentioned in another post yesterday, the DS big end has run and hammered the shells out so up for a new rod. Unfortunately it wont clean up on a 10 thou regrind so down to 20 under. Seriously looking at some MAP rods, wonder if they will do a job lot price for some triple ones as well?. Anyho...back to the bottom end. The timing side bush/crank clearance was 5 thou so no mysteries why the bearing failure here. Im a bit concerned about the scuffing and ridges that are visible in the machined hole the bush fits into. Im not confident the hole is straight and round so Im at the crossroads of a decision here. Looks like I will have to lightly machine the bush housing to establish straight and round. Are oversize outside dia bushes available or will I need to machine myself (Im handy with a lathe). If I machine myself, what is the recommended material. Next question is...if Im having to do all this remedial work on the TS bush, is it worth doing the TS conversion. Cheers, Stu


70 Rob North Rocket 3
71 T150
71 A65 Firebird
04 Buell Firebolt
08 Buell Ulysses
1974 Honda SL 125
75 Honda 125 Elsinore
75 Honda XL 350
84 Ducati 600 TTF2
Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #678926
12/26/16 4:36 am
12/26/16 4:36 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,554
Scotland
kommando Offline
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Scotland
If you are into machining the housing then the extra expense of the needle roller is getting less. Box the cases and crank up and send it to EdV for the conversion.

Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #678959
12/26/16 2:51 pm
12/26/16 2:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 309
Hampshire, England
DoubleDiamond Offline
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Hampshire, England
If you aren't planning on 'racing' the bike, then I would be tempted to redo/regrind the standard arrangement.

I had an end feed conversion done but then I also had an 80deg (was 90deg!) crank arrangement too. That 'saga' is still on-going - :-(

As has already been mentioned, make sure you fit an oil filter and fit magnets to the sump drain plugs too. And make sure you clean out the flywheel oil sludge trap. If fitting LC pistons then a DS ball bearing would help to locate the crank, eliminating end float problems. (I chose to fit a DS ball bearing to my Starfire B25 for this reason - so far so good).

If you are in any doubt about the oil pump then SRM do a good up-rated one - not cheap but less expensive than a rebuild.

I have also used the NOVA (available through SRM) 5-speed gearbox which brings the machine up-to-date - but its not a cheap option.

Don't skimp on the top end, in particular the carbs. The new AMAL Premiers are good. Carburetors are often completely overlooked and are a significant cause of poor running if not addressed. EI too, but you want the latest digital type because the advance curve is much closer to points than the early analogue types.

HTH


BSA: '71 B175; '68 B25; '71 A65; '71 A75
Triumph: '87 T140; '72 T150v
Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: DoubleDiamond] #678979
12/26/16 6:42 pm
12/26/16 6:42 pm
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 74
Rangiora, New Zealand
M
Mito Offline OP
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Mito  Offline OP
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Rangiora, New Zealand
Cheers Double D. Im not planning on racing the bike. It's to be my Sunday plodder. Iv'e got a Ducati TTF2 for when the blood rushes to the head!. Im restoring this bike from bottom up and definitely not skimping on the spend. Iv'e got quite a bit of experience on Triumphs so will be doing all of the usuals like sludge trap etc. Will be fitting a Charlies type filter and a SRM oil pump. I agree that a ball race on the drive side will be fine if I go the needle roller way. Firebird crankcases are to thin to the acre so want to make every effort to preserve them. As I have a good lathe in the workshop, I have had good results from re sleeving carbs with brass. The transformation is stunning and the slides shut better with a bit of weight. I have always fitted Boyers as a matter of course. If I go the bush way, what is the preferred material to make from?. Cheers, Stu

Last edited by Mito; 12/26/16 6:47 pm.

70 Rob North Rocket 3
71 T150
71 A65 Firebird
04 Buell Firebolt
08 Buell Ulysses
1974 Honda SL 125
75 Honda 125 Elsinore
75 Honda XL 350
84 Ducati 600 TTF2
Re: A65 Timing side bearing conversion [Re: Mito] #679095
12/28/16 7:22 am
12/28/16 7:22 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,862
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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Sydney Australia
So if you have a steel backed TS bush, machine out or use Nitric Acid to remove the bearing material.
Turn up a new linner from 85:5:5:5 gunmetal.
If you are going to make a complete new bush , same material.
It will take a diamond polish if you really want to get fancy.
I think they still market Guard Shaft which is a thick walled hollow spun cast tube bought by the cm or kg.
This will reduce both the cost & the amount of machining.

Buy your oil in a 44 so you always have plenty on hand


Bike Beesa
Trevor

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