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#676439 - 12/04/16 12:13 am TR6 Trophy Headbolts .  
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Charlieboy Offline
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G'day Friends,
To fix an oil leak from the exhaust push rod tube,the head is about to come of the Trophy ... again ( third time lucky ? )
A mate is of the opinion that this problem won't go away unless a set of new headbolts are purchased and new O rings fitted.He maintains that the bolts would be stretched and as such,a correct torque figure is hard to get.
I've had the Bike for about 35 years now.The head has been off a few times and I've always been able to make things oil tight..
I think I've made a mistake in using an opaque square section O ring at the bottom and a rust coloured standard O ring at the top..
I think I should have used the square section O rings top and bottom
he reckons the ' stretched ' bolts are the problem .
Any thoughts on this dilemma ?

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#676444 - 12/04/16 1:44 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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Stuart Online content
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Hi,

Triumph used "TR6" on vastly different models from the 1950's to the 1970's; a wee bit bit more in the way of clues about your bike would be useful ... earlier posts of yours mention a '69 TR6; is this what you're talking about?

Originally Posted By Charlieboy
A mate
maintains that the bolts would be stretched and as such,a correct torque figure is hard to get.

Aiui, the "correct torque figure" stretches the steel only elastically - when the torque is released, the bolt returns to it's original length. Have you ever over-torqued the bolts, so the steel's stretched plastically, after which the bolts will never return to their original length? Have you measured the bolts lengths with a micrometer (or calipers) so you can check if they're stretched?

Regards,

#676448 - 12/04/16 2:21 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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Thanks Stuart,
Yes ,that's the Bike ... a 1969 Trophy TR6P Ex Police .
.. and yes,I did over torque the bolts... once... about 6 months ago.Went to about 24 pounds on the thicker bolts and about 20 on the centre bolt.
I didn't start it and left it overnight .The next morning,I didn't feel real good about it and returned it to the specfied settings..... have I buggered the bolts ?
No ,I've never measured the bolts.. Over the years I'd say the head has been off about six times.
There's a few suppliers of a bolt set on eBay .... Ones from Harris @ about AUS$140.00 posted and some ,I suppose,Asian, sets for about $70.00.
Thanks for your input mate .

#676449 - 12/04/16 3:15 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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If you didn't start the bike, it's very possible that you did not stretch the bolts.

I wonder if anyone has measured the head bolt torque with the motor at full running temp? Guaranteed they are no longer at 18 ft lbs. My guess is that they go a bit higher than 24 ft lbs.

Once, I used new bolts with every motor I built. My reputation depended on it at the time. Now, I don't care so much, but I do intend to do my best work on any motor. Stretched bolts are often very easy to spot as the thread will no longer be 26tpi just above the cylinder block. A 3/8x26 nut will not thread all the way on and the bolt will not thread all the way into the cylinder.

I've often wondered if the bar turned bolts that come in kits are of the same strength as the original forged bolts, so I've been re-plating old, known good bolts for a number of years and use those when I do up a motor.

Cheers,

Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
#676451 - 12/04/16 4:10 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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Hi again,

Originally Posted By Charlieboy
1969 Trophy TR6P Ex Police

Thanks. smile

My next question is what's your reason(s) for using the '71-on prt sealing ("using an opaque square section O ring at the bottom and a rust coloured standard O ring at the top") and contemplating a non-standard prt sealing ("should have used the square section O rings top and bottom")? Risking labouring the point, the standard advice on the forum is at least start with head, tappet blocks, prt and seals from the same year?

Regards,

#676458 - 12/04/16 5:43 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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When I've bought the top end overhaul kits from eBay,I typed in 'TR6 Trophy 1969' as the Bike model and year and the kits that arrived (2 of them) have the opaque square O rings.(three different thicknesses) .
In the past when I've done this job,the part supplied with kits was an 'all white' square section part,which I used top and bottom..I'm under the impression that the opaque rings are a superior item.
I did some ringing around as regards the use of the rust coloured O ring on the top of the tube and Bike shops/people in the know said that was the way to go.. But not so,the poor old dear is leaking oil from the bottom of the exhaust push rod tube.( I've replaced the black O ring on the inside of the tube).
Folks here have said that a measurement of the gap between head and barrel is needed to determine the thickness of the O rings.... I've never had to do this and she never leaked .. until now frown .
This will be the third attempt to stop the leak..

#676464 - 12/04/16 8:46 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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Stein Roger Online content
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Head bolts:
All steels have the same "e-modulus" or module of elasticity, which determines their "springiness". All fasteners are in fact springs, when you do up a fastener you stretch or pre-load this spring. The torque figure we are so interested in, is simply a way of calculating this load, and is dependent on bolt diameter, thread pitch, friction to name the most important. On an alloy head, which will expand more with heat than will steel, it's really important not to exceed this figure, as expansion will lead to overloading the connection. The bolt won't stretch permanently but the alloy will become permanently deformed under the bolt head, and sometimes from the head gasket flame rings.
In fact it's a rare occurrence for these relatively large diameter bolts to deform, unless extremely over tightened. They will then change in diameter, read what Bill wrote, lose their defined properties and are rendered scrap.
Inspect your bolts carefully, if no dimensional changes are found, and the threads are good, they're good to go.

PRT (Push Rod Tube) seals:
Having messed with these bikes for over 40 years I have acquired a large selection of various PRT seals and O-rings (I keep them in a dark and relatively cool place). They vary in size and shape and from these I can usually find some that will give me the required crush. Sometimes, when dealing with a shaved head etc, I go to the local machine shop/dealer and find o-rings that will fit, I prefer Viton but Nitrile will do too. Avoid non-specified o-rings. Some vendors, like LP.Williams, sell x-section rings, which is what I'm currently using on my Trident.

#1 reason for a leak is too much crush, as people overdo it. I know, I've done it myself, the trick is to learn from it ;-). Too much crush will even distort (bow) the cylinder head.
A light crush is what you're after, I do it by eye and feel, others with gauges.
#2 reason is damage to the seal areas, or sometimes residue from earlier attempts at sealing with any type of silicone or other compounds. Some careful work with suitable tools to clean the recess in the head (or rocker box) and truing up the PRT seal areas, is invaluable. It doesn't take much of a nick to let oil escape.

Another reason for any leak on a parallel twin is crankcase pressure. As long as your cylinder seal (little wear, good rings) is good, the standard ventilation is just about adequate, but some people have fitted PCV valves on their ventilation systems, and claim to achieve a slight crankcase depression at normal speeds,or ambient pressure at the very least. Access Norton has a number of forum threads on this, if you want to read up on it. I've done it on a Commando 850 in my care, and so far it seems to work well. No leaks yet, but we need some mileage to confirm a result. It's winter here...

#676470 - 12/04/16 10:12 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted By Charlieboy
When I've bought the top end overhaul kits from ebay,I typed in 'TR6 Trophy 1969' as the Bike model and year and the kits that arrived (2 of them) have the opaque square O rings.(three different thicknesses) .

With respect, when you "typed in", you used an internet search engine. They work in well-recognised ways. That you received "opaque square O rings.(three different thicknesses)" all in one kit - along with a whole load of different-coloured 'O'-rings? - tells us you received a 'universal' gasket set. For the seller to get the internet search engine to find his 'universal' gasket set when you typed in "TR6 Trophy 1969", all he has to do is put every year from x to 1983 and all Triumph twin model codes and names in the metadata of the listing (so it isn't displayed to you) and the search engine will find "TR6", "Trophy" and "1969"; the search engine would almost certainly have 'found' exactly the same item if you typed in, say, "T100 Daytona 1973". frown

Risking labouring the point, the "opaque square O rings.(three different thicknesses)" are:-

. E1496 - 3/16" thick and wide (nominally) - used on the bottom of pre-unit prt and '63-'65 unit 650 prt;

. E3547 - 1/10" thick, 1/8" wide - used on the top of pre-unit prt, '57-'63 unit 350/500 prt, top of '63-'65 unit 650 prt, both ends of '66 prt, top of '67/'68 650 prt;

. E4752 - 1/8" thick and wide - used both ends of '64-'68 350/500 prt, bottom of '67/'68 650 prt, bottom of '71-early '79 650 & 750 prt, both ends of all triples' prt.

Originally Posted By Charlieboy
In the past when I've done this job,the part supplied with kits was an 'all white' square section part,which I used top and bottom..I'm under the impression that the opaque rings are a superior item.

Superior to what? The whole point of the Forum advice - originally by John Healy(?) - is that the various bits from different years aren't necessarily interchangeable, so randomly inserting a part doesn't automatically mean the parts around it can seal on it?

Fwiw, note the two years missing entirely from the above list are '69 and '70 ... although John Healy has related that what's listed in the '71 650 parts book was actually introduced during the later part of '70. So that leaves '69 as the only year (before late '79) when none of the "opaque square O rings" were specified ...

Originally Posted By Charlieboy
the poor old dear is leaking oil from the bottom of the exhaust push rod tube.
This will be the third attempt to stop the leak..

whistle

Originally Posted By Charlieboy
Folks here have said that a measurement of the gap between head and barrel is needed to determine the thickness of the O rings...

If you're using the above E4752/E3547/E1496 "O rings"; otoh, if the head bolts are only squeezing thin 'O'-rings, they probably only want to be squeezed a very small amount?

Hth.

Regards,

#676476 - 12/04/16 11:20 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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It is also important to check engine numbers to correct parts book .I just did a check on my 69 parts book and it gives a number of E7310 for push rod tube seals ...This was from engine number DU85904 forward. We always at our shop check parts books with engine numbers as they sometimes differ. One thing we always do when using re-pop tubes is measure as they can be a bit longer than stock and will crush if you don't use correct size and o rings.

Lots of good info here

Cheers

Mike Carter

Last edited by Mike Carter; 12/04/16 11:21 am.
#676486 - 12/04/16 1:04 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Mike Carter R.I.P.]  
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So is e-7310 correct for 1969 triumph 650. I have a 69 that is why I am asking.

Thanks

#676496 - 12/04/16 1:31 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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Well, 70-7310 (E7310) is the part number for the "O" ring made from Buna-a.

Yes the parts book does illustrate these being used both top and bottom. It didn't work as the Buna-n top "O" ring melted and would fail in service. Then Triumph put out a Service Bulletin which recommended updating the the 1969 to the 1970 condition. This included the 71-1283 Viton top "O" ring, the larger of the three square "O" rings 70-4752 (E4752) under the tube and the 71-1707 "Wedding Band" cover. Remember to check, and adjust as necessary, the push rod tube crush.

71-1283 is the same size "O" ring but made from Viton. Viton will with stand much higher temperatures than Buna-n and is used on the top. To stop confusion on these two "O" rings or mixing them up we supply both in our gasket sets in the Viton condition. That way you are not going to make a mistake.

When choosing to use a "square" "O" ring (also know as a Quad Seal), as mentioned being supplied by LP Williams, they are typically supplied made from Buna-N. You will need to get ones made from Viton to use them in the top.

If the leak is at the bottom, and you have unsuccessfully tried to stop the leak, I would seriously consider the tappet guide block "O" ring has failed. This requires removing cylinder and tappet guide block.

Clean the area as oil free as you can get it. Take the bike for a short ride stopping to check for the leak. Clean the area and go for a shorter ride trying to trace the leak back to source. Go for shorter, and shorter rides until it becomes obvious. Some people use talc to help.
John


#676498 - 12/04/16 2:00 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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Quote:
It is also important to check engine numbers to correct parts book .I just did a check on my 69 parts book and it gives a number of E7310 for push rod tube seals ...


OK the parts books are a start on your journey, then you need the Addendum Sheets published after the bikes were actually made listing the correct part numbers and conditions. Then you need the Service Bulletins that corrected the mistakes, omissions, and errors when the bike was actually in service. Then you need some experience when trying to use modern materials.

For example the Quad seals mentioned above. These "O" rings are almost universally made from Buna-N and are not a good choice where they are used on the Triumph twin as the "O" ring sits right between the two exhaust ports. Buna N "O" rings are used in situations where the temperature does not exceed 250 F. On a hot day this area can often reach, or exceed, the 437 F limit for Viton.

Please note that LP Williams supplies these from experience with triples where the Quad "O" ring sits in the rocker box which does not reach the exhaust side cylinder head temperatures of the twin!

We use a Quad seal in our head bolt washer kit for the twin. It was not an off the shelf item and had to be made to order - at some expense I might add. A standard Quad "O" ring was pennies where the Viton one, in the formulation I needed, was dollars. And then there are some 10 odd formula variations of Viton "O" rings where some are not recommended to be used with SG and SH oils.

At 77 I learn something new every day, which often blow old beliefs "right out of the water!"

IMHO probably the worst for errors is the Trident books.


#676499 - 12/04/16 2:10 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: John Healy]  
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Hi John,

Originally Posted By John Healy
Then Triumph put out a Service Bulletin which recommended updating the the 1969 to the 1970 condition. This included the 71-1283 Viton top "O" ring, the larger of the three square "O" rings 70-4752 (E4752) under the tube and the 71-1707 "Wedding Band" cover.

I can't get access to the Service Bulletins. frown Could you clarify:-

. By "updating ... to the 1970 condition", you mean the "later 1970 condition", that are the parts illustrated and listed in the '71 parts books?

. Can the 70-4752 square 'O'-ring/Quad Seal be fitted under the 70-9349 pushrod tube shown in the '69 and '70 parts books, or is it necessary to fit the 71-2575 prt shown in the '71 parts book?

Originally Posted By John Healy
When choosing to use a "square" "O" ring (also know as a Quad Seal), as mentioned being supplied by LP Williams, they are typically supplied made from Buna-N. You will need to get ones made from Viton to use them in the top.

The standard white (or later translucent) 70-4752 are always Buna-N?

If so, what's the difference in conditions that mean they work ok at the top of triple prt?

Also if so, are the black 70-4752 I'm seeing likely to be Viton?

Regards,

#676509 - 12/04/16 3:43 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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#676523 - 12/04/16 5:28 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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The 70-4752 and 70-3547, are silicone and are square "O" rings not a Quad, or x-section "O" ring.
Please google: "Quad O rings".

Because nearly all Quad "O" rings are Buna-N (good to about 250F) they would not be appropriate to be used at the top of 68 or earlier push rod tube. Typical silicone "O" rings (70-4752 and 70-3547) used in earlier heads are good to around 400 F.

There is a big difference in the twin and triple: the twin has the "O" ring in the hottest portion of the cylinder head while the triple the same "O" ring is in the rocker box.

The first 70-7310 "O" rings were red silicone (good to 400F) and were replaced later with Viton.

Thanks L.A.B for the link to the Service Bulletin.

There is one thing I disagree with it. The use of grease to lubricate the "O" ring during assembly. I find the "O" rings are much less prone to leaking if I use P-80 rubber lube. A water based product that evaporates leaving a perfectly dry seal. I find lubricating the "O" ring with oil and grease provides a capillary path for oil to "wick" and eventually weep, or even leak.
John


#676530 - 12/04/16 7:50 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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Originally Posted By Charlieboy
I did some ringing around as regards the use of the rust coloured O ring on the top of the tube and Bike shops/people in the know said that was the way to go..



Many vendors sell black 71-1283 "top" (Viton) O-rings.


https://www.classicbritishspares.com/pro...-t100-t120-t140

http://www.classic-bike-shop.com/71-1283-o-ring-push-rod-tube-upper-late-unit-650-triumph-459-p.asp

http://thebonnevilleshop.com/triumph-650...1-1283-70-7310/


http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=304511#Post304511

#676544 - 12/05/16 12:37 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: John Healy]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted By L.A.B.
Triumph Service Bulletin 324

Thank you.

Originally Posted By John Healy
The 70-4752 and 70-3547, are silicone

Thank you.

Regards,

#676563 - 12/05/16 6:28 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Stuart]  
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Originally Posted By Stuart

Originally Posted By L.A.B.
Triumph Service Bulletin 324


Thank you.


It is on your Kim Triumph CD.

(Tech_Service>Service_1.pdf.)

#676577 - 12/05/16 10:48 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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Perefct that is how info should flow..

Cheers guys

Mike Carter

#676591 - 12/05/16 1:45 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: L.A.B.]  
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Hi Les,

Originally Posted By L.A.B.
It is on your Kim Triumph CD.

Unfortunately, I had a Craft Moment a few weeks ago and put my copy down somewhere other than the place where I keep it normally. As I'm in the middle of The Longest House Move Ever, the house move goblins have had it away, so Gk when I'll see it again - probably just after Christmas, after the family have bought me a new one, instead of something I really want ... frown

Regards,

#676594 - 12/05/16 2:02 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Stuart]  
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Originally Posted By Stuart
Originally Posted By L.A.B.
It is on your Kim Triumph CD.

Unfortunately, I had a Craft Moment a few weeks ago and put my copy down somewhere other than the place where I keep it normally. As I'm in the middle of The Longest House Move Ever, the house move goblins have had it away, so Gk when I'll see it again - probably just after Christmas, after the family have bought me a new one, instead of something I really want ... frown


You are not seriously telling me you load the CD every time you want to look at something (if I did that I'd have worn out several CD drives by now what with Triumph, Norton, BSA, Lucas CDs).
Why not keep the folders on your computer (less chance of mislaying that) or upload them to your 'cloud'?

#676604 - 12/05/16 3:26 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: L.A.B.]  
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Hi Les,

Originally Posted By L.A.B.
You are not seriously telling me you load the CD every time you want to look at something

Can't speak for the Norton CD but I don't have to load the others that often ...

Originally Posted By L.A.B.
or upload them to your 'cloud'?

laughing You haven't experienced 'broadband' in the Scottish Highlands ... Although I can't claim to have invented the phrase, "dirt-track off the information superhighway" has more than a ring of truth ...

In any event, the CD will reappear and normal service will be resumed.

Regards,

#676755 - 12/06/16 10:30 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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Sorry for not replying sooner than now... The 'W ' word (work) has gotten in the way and I haven't been able to get to the shed..
I'm happy with the idea that new headbolts are not neccessary, after replies here and talking to an Engineer friend..
I'm still confused however about which O rings/Square section rings to use..
Bike is 69/70 650 ex police model, Engine number XD34025 ..
I relaced the O ring in the cam follower block about a year ago when I fitted new piston rings,so that should be OK
As regards the gasket kit, which said suits 1963 to 1971 Triumph 650's,here's some measurements.
Square section opaque rings... 2 @ 5mm thck 2 @ 3.3mm thick 4 @ 2.4 thick.
The Rust coloured standard O'ring is 2.2 mm thick .. 4 of these.
I'm thinking the 3.3mm square ring on the bottom and the Rust coloured O ring on the top.
Any thoughts ? Thanks very much for all your replies.

#676763 - 12/06/16 11:43 pm Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 324
Australia
... so are we saying that the opaque square section rings are not suitable for use on the TOP of the tube ? ... gets too hot there for them to handle ?

#676777 - 12/07/16 3:46 am Re: TR6 Trophy Headbolts . [Re: Charlieboy]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,292
Stuart Online content
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,292
Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted By Charlieboy
I'm still confused however about which O rings/Square section rings to use..

The Forum is noted for the clarity of its advice ... laughing

Originally Posted By Charlieboy
I'm thinking the 3.3mm square ring on the bottom and the Rust coloured O ring on the top.

71-1283 'O'-rings top and bottom - these are the same dimensions as 70-7310 (E7310) but made of Viton - that will resist the temperature at the top of the prt better than the Buna-N that E7310 was made of.

Aiui, Viton is black?

70-4752 (1/8" (3.3 mm) thick and wide) or 70-3547 (1/10" (2.4 mm) thick, 1/8" wide) - depending on the 'crush' required - only under the bottom of each prt. 71-1707 'wedding band' over each of these and the bottom of the prt.

The 3/16"- (5 mm-) thick ones are E1496 - used on pre-units and early unit 650's - are also 3/16" wide, so wider overall than the other two (because the ID stretched over any tappet block is 1"), so are more likely to cause problems fitting the 'wedding bands'.

Originally Posted By Charlieboy
... so are we saying that the opaque square section rings are not suitable for use on the TOP of the tube ? ... gets too hot there for them to handle ?

No. But you wouldn't use 'em at the TOP of the prt on your bike anyway; you should be using 'O'-ring 71-1283.

Hth.

Regards,

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