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Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: Zombie] #637114
01/25/16 11:00 pm
01/25/16 11:00 pm
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Arizona, USA
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SpencerAZ Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Zombie
Mr. Spencer,
You're gonna want to break my fingers but...
What's up with the bronze rod stitching in that case?

I'm positive that the heat generated from that sort of repair attempt has distorted your case.
Actually that is the first time I have seen bronze rod used on aluminium, and the only way it could possibly stay attached is by wicking into the crack, and hanging on by interference rather than a melding of materials.

My vote is for removing that engine from the frame, and... working overtime for a few months to pay for it.

The hit list of must do's is growing.
What's up is that whoever worked on this bike didn't know his ass from page eight. Here's a shot of the whole case. I think it was probably an attempt to salvage rust damage. And that gunk is...go ahead and guess. I'm tired of saying it.



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Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: Zombie] #637116
01/25/16 11:16 pm
01/25/16 11:16 pm
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Magnetoman Online content

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Originally Posted By Zombie
Actually that is the first time I have seen bronze rod used on aluminium, and the only way it could possibly stay attached is by wicking into the crack, and hanging on by interference rather than a melding of materials
It's not aluminum, it's stamped steel. While not the prettiest brazing job I've ever seen, it's far from the worst. As for distortion, those stamped steel inner and outer covers are never not distorted.

Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: Magnetoman] #637117
01/25/16 11:30 pm
01/25/16 11:30 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 89
Arizona, USA
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SpencerAZ Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Magnetoman
Originally Posted By Zombie
Actually that is the first time I have seen bronze rod used on aluminium, and the only way it could possibly stay attached is by wicking into the crack, and hanging on by interference rather than a melding of materials
It's not aluminum, it's stamped steel. While not the prettiest brazing job I've ever seen, it's far from the worst. As for distortion, those stamped steel inner and outer covers are never not distorted.
Which is probably why all the mating surfaces, including where felt washers should have been used, were sealed up with everyone's favorite bandaid, Permatex (I've started hating the word). Even the cover gasket-which I've replaced with the proper cork one-was made from a piece of punched out leather strap and glued in with an obscene amount of that stuff.


SpencerAZ
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637124
01/26/16 1:32 am
01/26/16 1:32 am
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Ok. I see it is a stamped steel inner case.
I have a fella coming by to break my pinkies, don't I?!

666 Pennsylvania Ave..
I'm the white guy in jeans...


Last edited by Zombie; 01/26/16 1:35 am.
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: Zombie] #637126
01/26/16 2:16 am
01/26/16 2:16 am
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Posts: 89
Arizona, USA
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SpencerAZ Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Zombie


Ok. I see it is a stamped steel inner case.
I have a fella coming by to break my pinkies, don't I?!

666 Pennsylvania Ave..
I'm the white guy in jeans...

Yeah, that narrows it down, heh! At any rate, further inspections are hindered by the lack of a clutch puller, so until that arrives...

Maybe I'll luck out and find something not snafu. (Who am I kidding)

Perhaps in the interim I'll pull the tires off and see what the rims look like.


SpencerAZ
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: Zombie] #637134
01/26/16 4:58 am
01/26/16 4:58 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,570
Sydney Australia
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Originally Posted By Zombie
Mr. Spencer,
You're gonna want to break my fingers but...
What's up with the bronze rod stitching in that case?

I'm positive that the heat generated from that sort of repair attempt has distorted your case.
Actually that is the first time I have seen bronze rod used on aluminium, and the only way it could possibly stay attached is by wicking into the crack, and hanging on by interference rather than a melding of materials.

My vote is for removing that engine from the frame, and... working overtime for a few months to pay for it.

The hit list of must do's is growing.


That is because it is a steel inner and the killer spring is obviously the pre WWII and M20 single spring clutch which I don't think B series got lumbered with after WW II.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637135
01/26/16 5:06 am
01/26/16 5:06 am
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Posts: 3,570
Sydney Australia
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Originally Posted By SpencerAZ
Originally Posted By B31 Ally
See the fine threads on the end of it? There is a puller that screws onto it so you can pull it off the taper on the shaft. Check this link out.
http://www.eBay.co.uk/itm/61-3362-BSA-6-SPRING-CLUTCH-EXTRACTOR-TOOL-B31-M20-A10-ETC-/371463089595?hash=item567cecedbbgrC4AAOSw37tV~BPi
Ah! It's always a special tool. Am I going to have a similar issue getting the cush drive on? That spring is impressively strong.


Yes Sir you will need the BSA single Spring clutch tool to do it on the bike.
Or you can assemble the entire clutch , including the hub using a drill press or plain old press or a big vice, or a lenght of all thread and some nuts & big washers.
If you use the extractor then the entire clutch can be removed as a single unit and replaced the same.
When you use the extractor, remove the clutch pushrod or you will bend it more than it already is.
The extractors work well with a rattle gun or you make it really tight then give the end of the tool a smart whack with a big hammer.
Now a word of caution here as too hard a smack can break off the thin lip holding the bearings in thus requiring welding & remachining.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: BSA_WM20] #637136
01/26/16 5:16 am
01/26/16 5:16 am
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Sydney Australia
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now as you have the single spring clutch and considering the mess the rest of the bike was in, did the clutch have a cover that bolts onto the chain wheel ?
If not you will need to get one, or change the clutch as without the "top hat" single spring ( dry ) clutches get oily then cease to work, usually 1/2 way up a really big hill, in heavy trafic , a log way from the nearest help in an area that has no cell phone coverage.

You have the option of staying with the single spring, which is a bitch to assemble & disassemble as you have already found.
or fitting a 6 spring which is easy to work on but a right royal bastard to set up
or getting the adapter & fitting the Triumph 4 spring clutch which works better and is easy to set up & maintain.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637140
01/26/16 8:13 am
01/26/16 8:13 am
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 470
Death row next in line norfolk
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Yes Sir you will need the BSA single Spring clutch tool to do it on the bike.

Looks like a 6 spring centre to me!. I normally use a old gearbox sprocket nut from a pre unit A10 screw this onto clutch centre the use a two leg puller with a bit of heat on centre it will pop off.. Dave


1941 BSA WM20
1958 TRI-BSA 750 PRE UNIT
1957 THUNDERBIRD
1932 R E MODEL GS SPECIAL
1947 BSA YM21
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: Tribsauk] #637162
01/26/16 11:01 am
01/26/16 11:01 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 89
Arizona, USA
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SpencerAZ Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Tribsauk
Yes Sir you will need the BSA single Spring clutch tool to do it on the bike.

Looks like a 6 spring centre to me!. I normally use a old gearbox sprocket nut from a pre unit A10 screw this onto clutch centre the use a two leg puller with a bit of heat on centre it will pop off.. Dave
I already ordered the puller for the clutch sleeve. WM20, the strong spring I was referring to was the cush drive spring on the crank end.


Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/26/16 11:08 am.

SpencerAZ
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637181
01/26/16 1:16 pm
01/26/16 1:16 pm
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Originally Posted By SpencerAZ
It's always a special tool. Am I going to have a similar issue getting the cush drive on?
The special tool you need for this is shown in the second photograph at:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=468027#Post468027


Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: Magnetoman] #637216
01/26/16 6:12 pm
01/26/16 6:12 pm
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Posts: 382
Cork Ireland
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HI Spencer,
Hmmmm?????

The damage to the inner case as seen is usually caused by missing tubular spacers on the foot rest mountings, there should be tubular spacers between the inner case and engine plates and one with flared ends between the case halves
When the footrest is tightened without the correct spacers and washers the inner case is forced inwards and the final drive chain chews away at it frown

http://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/bsa...p-plunger-rigid

The spring shown for the cush drive looks "long" to me
How many turns on that spring?
Whan assembled, the nut must butt up to the sleeve on the crankshaft and be tightened to 65ft lbs
Measure the compressed length of the spring , it should be less than the space for it when the nut is fully threaded on
It is possible that the wrong spring is fitted ????

John

Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637240
01/26/16 10:16 pm
01/26/16 10:16 pm
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Posts: 124
Northern Ireland
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Have to say the tale of horror continues inside the primary chain case, I have seen some bodges in my time but this is definitely getting worse. Spencer, you have my sympathies on this one.

That's definitely a six spring clutch centre on your gearbox input shaft. Something has seriously went wrong at sometime to end up with a chain case patched up like that, I suspect too the two spacers and cork gaskets have been missing at some stage on the foot rest shaft.

Again im agreeing with chaterlea25 that the cush drive spring looks a little long, any B series bike I worked at I was able to hold the outside nut with the four slots in it with my finger and thumb and push against the spring and get it started onto the thread on the crankshaft, it may have taken a couple of goes and I could have more strength than I realise but it hadn't that much tension that I couldn't push against it with my hand and start the nut onto the crank.

The whole idea of this assembly is to take the sharp direct drive as it were out of the engine where it is driving into the clutch, you want to ride a B series bike with the outer chain cover off and watch down at that cush drive mechanism work as you accelerate and de accelerate, it does some amount of moving in and out against the spring. One other thing I found is you soon know when the nut has slackened off because you can hear the lobes ratcheting over the top of each other when you accelerate. They can not ratchet when correctly assembled and tightened but it can move in and out.

Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637249
01/26/16 11:22 pm
01/26/16 11:22 pm
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SpencerAZ Offline OP
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I should clear things up by saying that I know it has a six spring clutch because I pulled it out already, as well as the foot peg spacer and washers and primary chain. I don't know about turns in the spring, but if looked at in profile, the ends are parallel with two angled "turns(?)" between them. Again, if you look at the brazing, the upper right line goes perfectly with the forward chain guard, there is a spot the size of a dime forward of the drain plug, and a patch at 11 o'clock at the crank end. All that gunk around the crank cutout is clear Permatex that I haven't cleaned off. Personally, I think the brazing was used to fix rust damage, especially considering the patch where the chain guard is and the fact that the cover plate is in remarkably good condition without any warping or obvious damage. Cork washers on the foot rest shaft were replaced by Permatex and rubber O rings. The felt washers were replaced with Permatex and the outer cover plate gasket was a leather strap with heaps of black Permatex for filler. I was able to drive about ten miles or so when I bought the bike (after changing all the fluids and making preliminary adjustments) and discovered the clutch was dragging. I started a thread about it actually. At any rate, I'm dismantling the bike so I can look at everything.

I know that the bike is a complete disaster. I've owned nothing but motorcycles for ten years and have nearly 100,000 miles between three different brands. I do all of my own work down to wheel truing and tire changes with levers and a static balancer. Before that I owned a 240Z, 280Z and a Fiat Spyder so I feel reasonably confident in my mechanical aptitude. While this is my first vintage motorcycle, and most definitely a learning experience, my need for assistance here is due to a lack of experience with machines of this ilk, and a desire to do a proper job in repairing what, by rights, is a complete clusterfuck. If it helps for reference, I've also got a copy of the BSA, 1949 to 1952-3 OHV spares catalogue, and Haycraft's Book of the BSA. I just felt like I needed to give you all a little background because I gather that some of you might believe this to be my first time turning a wrench.

Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/26/16 11:25 pm. Reason: using my phone. ..

SpencerAZ
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637316
01/27/16 2:55 pm
01/27/16 2:55 pm
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Not much left



SpencerAZ
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637320
01/27/16 3:03 pm
01/27/16 3:03 pm
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Posts: 470
Death row next in line norfolk
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Has this bike spent anytime Abroad, I see additional chrome and the bodges would suggest maybe India. I have seen similar modifications on other BSA models from that area... Dave


1941 BSA WM20
1958 TRI-BSA 750 PRE UNIT
1957 THUNDERBIRD
1932 R E MODEL GS SPECIAL
1947 BSA YM21
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: Tribsauk] #637326
01/27/16 3:08 pm
01/27/16 3:08 pm
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Arizona, USA
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SpencerAZ Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Tribsauk
Has this bike spent anytime Abroad, I see additional chrome and the bodges would suggest maybe India. I have seen similar modifications on other BSA models from that area... Dave
I don't think it spent time abroad, but I think someone probably bought cheap parts from India. I see a lot of that crap on eBay and the price would be tempting enough for someone interested in "quick" rather than "right".


SpencerAZ
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637332
01/27/16 3:52 pm
01/27/16 3:52 pm
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SpencerAZ
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637363
01/27/16 7:43 pm
01/27/16 7:43 pm
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That one looks like he had some professional help. More like JB Weld.

Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637372
01/27/16 9:01 pm
01/27/16 9:01 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
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Its not looking good, what other mysteries await, hmmm. Its hard to F up a BSA gearbox , that might be OK.


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Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: gavin eisler] #637380
01/27/16 11:19 pm
01/27/16 11:19 pm
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Originally Posted By gavin eisler
Its not looking good, what other mysteries await, hmmm. Its hard to F up a BSA gearbox , that might be OK.
the gears inside look good. And the patch is soft, so it's certainly Permatex...man, this guy had a hard on for RTV. I'm worried about the lower end of the engine.


SpencerAZ
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #637387
01/28/16 2:29 am
01/28/16 2:29 am
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Don't worry too much about the lower end. You are this far, go the rest of the way.

The 2 worst thing that can happen to those bottom ends are loose/broken rivets on the crank axles or damaged tapers in the flywheels. Yes it happens, but it tends to happen more on a sporting motor, not a cooking motor,

BSA heavy weight pre-unit single engines are, IMO, fairly well designed and surprisingly robust for the technology used. It will probably need bearing and the crank rebuilt. A bit different than a modern pressed up crank, but the idea is similar.


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: Rich B] #637467
01/28/16 8:13 pm
01/28/16 8:13 pm
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Originally Posted By Rich B
Don't worry too much about the lower end. You are this far, go the rest of the way.

The 2 worst thing that can happen to those bottom ends are loose/broken rivets on the crank axles or damaged tapers in the flywheels. Yes it happens, but it tends to happen more on a sporting motor, not a cooking motor,

BSA heavy weight pre-unit single engines are, IMO, fairly well designed and surprisingly robust for the technology used. It will probably need bearing and the crank rebuilt. A bit different than a modern pressed up crank, but the idea is similar.
Is this something I can order parts for and fix myself, or is custom fabrication necessary?


SpencerAZ
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #671449
10/18/16 1:55 pm
10/18/16 1:55 pm
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Well, today I'll be selling this machine to someone with more means, who can give it the attention it deserves.

Let this post also serve as a warning to anyone here that might ever have dealings with Douglas Scott of Southwest British Restorations LLC in Tucson, AZ. He sold this bike to me, assuring me at the time of sale that this motorcycle was completely functional, that he rode it often, and that it was fully capable of a 40 mile ride home. His friends in Phoenix--where I picked it up with a truck (thank goodness)--also assured me of how great this bike ran, and backed up his reputation for knowledge and honesty. I admit that my lack of experience with motorcycles of this vintage played their part, but I think it is obvious to anyone who reads this thread that I was swindled.

Learn from my mistake.


SpencerAZ
Re: 1952 B33 Rich Mixture issue [Re: SpencerAZ] #671454
10/18/16 2:36 pm
10/18/16 2:36 pm
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I'm very sorry to hear when anyone has such a bad experience that it causes them to abandon a project like this. While some of the photos and descriptions earlier in this thread were pretty dire, every story has two sides and it would be nice to hear the other one from the seller.

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