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#669702 - 10/01/16 4:33 pm tire tube has 2 nuts  
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Douglass Harroun Offline
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Seattle
The tube stem has two nuts supplied, and a dished washer. Should I use both nuts, one on each side of rim? The washer against the rubber?

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#669703 - 10/01/16 4:59 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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triton thrasher Online content
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Both nuts, locked together outside the rim, halfway up the visible part of the valve..


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#669717 - 10/01/16 7:49 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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leon bee Offline
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I throw one nut in the pile, use other outside rim.

#669961 - 10/04/16 6:32 am Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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RF Whatley Online content
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One nut against the sealing washer on the inside of the rim.
One nut on the outside of the rim.


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#669963 - 10/04/16 6:44 am Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: RF Whatley]  
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one on the outside valve stem, the other on your keychain for when the first falls off.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
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Standing alone my senses reeled
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#669974 - 10/04/16 9:20 am Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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reverb Offline
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...if you put a nut inside the rim you ll have kind of a space when inflate the tire, making more prone to puncture or failure and that s not good in my book

#669994 - 10/04/16 12:46 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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triton thrasher Online content
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This is attributed to an email from Michelin, on an Ariel forum:

Quote:
The conical washer sits over the inner tube valve stem and should follow the contour of the valve so that the convex side sits against the wheel rim when fitting.

Once fitted to the wheel the two lock nuts sit on the valve cap side of the wheel rim. After fitment and inflation to the correct pressure, the two nuts should be backed up towards the valve cap, and locked against each other.

This is not usually an issue on correctly inflated road going tyres, but should there be any slippage of tyre on the rim, during heavy braking or acceleration for example, the inner tube could be pulled around slightly with the tyre and if the inner tube is bolted to the rim the valve can be ripped out. If the lock nuts are raised towards the valve cap then inner tube has some leeway to move before this happens. Any movement is thus obvious as the valve stem will no longer be straight and pointing at the centre of the hub, but will be pulled round at an angle.


http://forum.arielownersmcc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3880&start=10#p25405[/quote]




Last edited by triton thrasher; 10/04/16 1:06 pm.
#669997 - 10/04/16 12:58 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: RF Whatley]  
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Lannis Online content
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Originally Posted By RF Whatley
One nut against the sealing washer on the inside of the rim.
One nut on the outside of the rim.


I recognize you as the expert, but are you really sure about that?

What could possibly be the function of a nut inside the rim?

Why is the dished washer on the tube a really good fit for the rim, but is awkward and grossly out of place against a hex nut?

Why isn't the inside nut a "stress point" for the tube?

Lannis


OK, I admit it, I'm addicted to brake fluid.

But I can stop any time I want.
#670002 - 10/04/16 1:50 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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Tridentman Online content
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Many thanks, TT, that is extremely helpful and also makes a lot of sense.
Sometimes acerbic wit and sometimes very helpful info --this guy is quite a Scotsman!

#670007 - 10/04/16 2:05 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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triton thrasher Online content
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An engineer guy at work bought an oil in frame 650 Tiger. He's such a perfectionist he emailed Michelin about the two nuts and that's what they replied with.

At least, so he says. I don't think I've actually seen the reply.....


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#670022 - 10/04/16 4:04 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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Irish Swede Online content
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I thought the entire purpose of the second nut is to lock the first one in place, and the purpose of the first nut is to lock the valve stem in place onto the rim.

Also, if the tube has been properly lubricated with talc or chalk when it's installed, how can any slippage of the tire on the rim grip the tube enough to rip out the valve stem?

#670024 - 10/04/16 4:35 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Irish Swede]  
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Originally Posted By Irish Swede
the purpose of the first nut is to lock the valve stem in place onto the rim.


Yes, while you're fitting a new tyre and tube.




Quote:
Also, if the tube has been properly lubricated with talc or chalk when it's installed, how can any slippage of the tire on the rim grip the tube enough to rip out the valve stem?


Ok, the tyre goes round and round, leaving the tube in one place. You should do some controlled experiments.

Or argue it out with the makers.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#670034 - 10/04/16 6:45 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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Nick Offline
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Does anyone really believe that that little nut on the valve stem is going to 'hold the tube in place' if the tire slips on the rim? Some folks just have to learn the hard way.

The only thing a nut is needed for is for preventing the stem from slipping inside the tire when mounting the tire on the rim and when pushing the stem inwards to allow the tire to properly seat on the rim.

Speedway bikes have an elegant solution: the stem protrudes not from the rim, but from the tire sidewall and has a 90 bend in it (at least they did the last time I went to a speedway race).


When people who should have known better cautioned me about the dangers of motorcycle racing, I always told them that a fear of death is nothing more than a fear of life in disguise.
#670036 - 10/04/16 7:18 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: RF Whatley]  
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Triless Online content
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I've always done what RF says, except I use the outside nut, finger tight, to lock the steel valve caps I use.
Its amazing the amount of people who "help " by screwing the nut back down to the rim !

#670069 - 10/05/16 3:26 am Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: ]  
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Good grief ! That explains it all. Needles has thrown his nuts away !!
Seriously, in this day and age would tyre manufacturers cling to hangovers from pushbike days ! Those nuts are obviously still supplied for a reason !
I agree with RF as to the placement of those nuts.

#670116 - 10/05/16 12:45 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Triless]  
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Originally Posted By Triless

I agree with RF as to the placement of those nuts.


And you'll probably get off with it.

Be wary of putting a nut inside the rim for a customer though, now that you know better.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#670147 - 10/05/16 5:59 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Triless Online content
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Well, TT, I've been fitting tubes to my bikes the way I was shown all those years ago.And, thus far, haven't had any problem. When I was operating, I only did service work and some engine rebuilds on motorcycles.
Although I change my own tyres I stayed away from that aspect re customers.Actually,the bulk of my work was with stationary engines. No call for tyre changing there !
But, one things for sure, I'll be having a bit of a think now !

#670162 - 10/05/16 6:49 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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I haven't seen tube damage obviously caused by any placement of nuts.

Tubes are fairly tough and most owners don't keep them too long (I hope).


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#670226 - 10/06/16 8:11 am Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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Allan Gill Offline
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I fit mine as shown on the Ariel note above, I used to lock both against the rim until my off roading pal told me that the valve could rip out before I even know the tube had shifted, and that if i lock the nuts by the cap I could quickly inspect the valve and see if the tube has moved or not.


beerchug
#670232 - 10/06/16 8:49 am Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Lannis]  
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RF Whatley Online content
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Originally Posted By Lannis
Originally Posted By RF Whatley
One nut against the sealing washer on the inside of the rim.
One nut on the outside of the rim.


I recognize you as the expert, but are you really sure about that?

What could possibly be the function of a nut inside the rim?

Why is the dished washer on the tube a really good fit for the rim, but is awkward and grossly out of place against a hex nut?

Why isn't the inside nut a "stress point" for the tube?

Lannis


I always considered the stem as a separate piece from the tube, and that the washer and first nut were a mechanical backup system in case the bonding between the 2 parts was faulty.

The described stack-up was what I was shown during my professional training in 1966. Every customer and personal tire I've changed since then (which must by now number in the thousands) has been fitted that way with no known failures.

I will point out that the outside nut is left loose (just spun on), because if the tire does slip on the rim, the angle of the valve stem will be the first indicator of trouble, well before the stem is ripped away from the tube. This is important because punctures can be repaired on the road side, but once the stem is ripped free of the tube, replacement is mandatory.

However, being an old dog that's still able to learn new tricks, I'm rethinking the stack-up based on the Michelin memo. You're never too old to learn !

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#670234 - 10/06/16 9:07 am Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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robcurrie Online content
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It's difficult to push on the air nozzle if the valve is not held steady in the rim with a nut, especially if the tyre is flat.

Rob C

#670262 - 10/06/16 12:41 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: Douglass Harroun]  
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triton thrasher Online content
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Wonder if we'd get a different answer from Dunlop, or Pneumant.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#670273 - 10/06/16 2:50 pm Re: tire tube has 2 nuts [Re: triton thrasher]  
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quinten Online content
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Ok ,
It looks like we're all on the same page ... no one is putting 2 nuts under the rim

.


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